Talk:Armenian genocide

armenian genocide

To correct a point of fact in this otherwise excellent article, the painting by Arshile Gorky "the Artist and his Mother" is not in the Cafesjian museum in Yerevan. It is in the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York. Other paintings by Gorky are in the MoMA and Metropolitan museums in that city. ---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arshilovna (talk • contribs) 17:26, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I have removed that incorrect information. But I think your "this otherwise excellent article" comment is equally incorrect! I don't know of a worse-written article. Meowy 01:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this is a horribly biased article. For example - the recounting of every politician who has failed to "officially recognize the genocide" smacks of outrageous bias. It is also a catalog of weasel words from start to finish. Even if this article is entirely accurate accurate (I'm not equipped to judge) the lack of a neutral tone immediately renders me suspicious of heavy nationalist bias. Manning (talk) 08:36, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

If you are not equipped to judge, maybe you should have kept your opinions to yourself until you get equipped? However, this article will not help much in the equiping. The problem with this article is that it is far too long and far too convoluted, is full of off-topic material, and seems to have been written for the editors who wrote it rather than for any users who would wish to read it. Its bias arises from the fact that much content has been put there as a response to genocide deniers. This is an entirely wrong way to write an article. Do we write articles on geography for those who think, and who will always think, that the earth is flat? Meowy 18:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Մեծ Եղեռն translated incorrectly

Մեծ Եղեռն does not mean the Great Crime. The literal translation is the Great Enormity or the Great Atrocity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rotbandito (talk • contribs) 20:24, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I thought "The Great Calamity" was the usual translation. Meowy 02:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Մեծ Եղեռն does mean Great Crime or Great Atrocity. Եղեռն even by itself means a heinous crime. Rotbindo, for unexplained reasons, thinks that "Great Calamity" is the correct translation. Thinking and knowing are two different things. What is the basis and reasoning for the change from "Great Crime" to "Great Calamity" which occurred on April 24, 2012 at 2111? This is a crucial historical question, not one that can be consigned to well-intentioned but faulty guessing. I will await a response before making a definitive move to correct the error as an editor. Thank you. Diranakir (talk) 18:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

My dictionary translates Եղեռն as "slaughter," "carnage," "genocide," "crime," and "evil deed." I was under the assumption that "calamity" was a word that had long been agreed under, but it looks like that among all of these "slaughter" or "crime" would be the most apt definitions here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

To Marshall Bagramyan: Your dictionary supports my dictionaries. I therefore intend to correct "Great Calamity" back to "Great Crime". I am completely puzzled by what made you change your mind about the meaning of the term after it had stood at "Great Crime" since April 9, 2010. This is a matter of concern to me both as an editor on Wikipedia as well as student of the Armenian Genocide. I hope whatever came to bear in the reversion to "Great Calamity" will not happen again. I am prepared to go the length in presenting not only the consensus of meaning of "yeghern" from one dictionary, but from numerous dictionaries--Armenian-Armenian, Armenian-English, English Armenian, as well as put the usage of the term in its historical context, particularly in its relation to the other terms used such as "Aghet". Thank you for your response. Diranakir (talk) 03:05, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Clarification: I had mistakenly confused Rotbindo's and Meowy's comments at the top. My "thinking and knowing" comment was addressed to Meowy. To Rotbandito: that "Great Enormity" (aside from its awkwardness as an English term) and "Great Atrocity" capture aspects of the meaning of "Medz Yeghern" offers no grounds for declaring "Great Crime" wrong. Agreed? "Crime" is the essential concept that weaves together all the other possible renderings of "yeghern". As such, it is both conservative and responsible and has a solid tradition of use by responsible thinkers. The impression that "yeghern" means simply "calamity" has been widely promoted, and that is probably why Meowy was thrown into confusion. Diranakir (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. And I do not get "thrown into confusion". It should be "Great Calamity". It is not correct to give direct translations where the direct translation alters the essential meaning of the original. Nor is it correct use modern meanings to translate a phrase that was coined almost a century ago. What is required is a translation which communicates the full meaning of the original. Most sources do use "calamity" as the translation, and do not use a pov word like "crime". Personally, I feel it is particularly objectionable to use the "great crime" translation: it is a corruption and distortion of the original meaning. It was a phrase that was used INTERNALLY, WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, by those who survived the genocide as a way of trying to define and describe events which could otherwise not be defined and described. They would not have used a trivial, everyday word like "crime" to define the disaster that fell upon them and I think that it is an insult to their memory to advocate such a useage. Meowy 16:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

To Meowy: You say "It is not correct to give direct translations where the direct translation alters the essential meaning of the original." You are here begging the question. This discussion is precisely about that question. Please state what dictionary or dictionaries you cite as proof that "crime" is an alteration of what you take to be the original meaning. Where can I find that "original meaning". Please provide the reference. Besides that, saying "It is not correct to give direct translations" is not an intelligible statement in itself. Please explain. For my part, I will propose that you look up Եղեռն in Mesrob G. Kouyoumdjian's "A Comprehensive Dictionary Armenian-English", 1970, Atlas Press, Beirut and tell me how he defines the word. Transliterating the Armenian title, it is "Untartsag Pararan Hayeren-Ankleren". You should also pay attention to what Marshall Bagramyan has clearly told us his dictionary states as the meaning of Եղեռն. Can you refer me to any English-Armenian dictionary that defines "calamity" as Եղեռն? Furthermore, your idea that the meaning of Եղեռն has substantially changed over the past century does not hold water and cannot be demonstrated. Diranakir (talk) 04:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not debating this further because I do not need to: you have presented no legitimate arguments! Dictionaries are not sources, and we are not translating single words but the meaning of a phrase. There are numerous sources for "Great Calamity". Meowy 17:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

To Meowy: You are debating this no further because you have nothing tangible to support your point of view. I welcome the end of our discussion. Diranakir (talk) 17:50, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

When I check the greatest authority Hrachia Acharian's dictionary he translates Yeghern both as "calamity, evil (and in new literary Armenian as crime)" [1]. Gazifikator (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

To Gazificator: Ashot Sukiasyan, recipient in 2004 of the highest award in philology of the Republic of Armenia for his 1967 work, Thesaurus of The Armenian Language [Hai Lezvi Homanishneri Patsadragan Pararan], gives the following meanings of "yeghern" (very partial list):

1. crime 2. slaughter 3. Evil act, calamity.

If you take the consensus of all the definitions offered in Sukiasyan and other Armenian-Armenian, Armenian-English, English Armenian dictionaries for the word "yeghern" it will be clear that malicious human agency is at their root. A calamity can be a flood or an earthquake, in other words an "act of God". This is not the sort of "calamity" meant by "yeghern". "Yeghern" denotes an egregious evil act, not an "act of God", and that is why "crime" is the best translation. Diranakir (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure. There is also Հայոց Մեծ Եղեռն. Gazifikator (talk) 05:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

To Gazificator: In my reading, with the characteristic economy of the Armenian language Հայոց Մեծ Եղեռն means "the great crime [or atrocity, or massacre, or slaughter] to which the Armenian people were subjected." Calamity, catastrophe, tragedy are definitely connotations of the word, but do not reflect its fundamental meaning. Please see Եղեռն at http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=25&pageNumber=179 Diranakir (talk) 16:03, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Your incorrect edits are compounded by your ignorance about Wikipedia editing practices. Your "my reading" reasoning is unimportant because "my reading" is original research. You have removed a properly cited fact from this article and replaced it by your pov opinion unsupported by any sources. The "Great Calamity" translation will ALWAYS be returned to this article because it is supported by hundreds of sources. Your edit will be removed and will continue to be removed because it is supported by no sources. Please stop wasting our time here. Meowy 14:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Your Armenian is strange, in Հայոց Մեծ Եղեռն it is impossible to use Հանցանք in place of Եղեռն, even if you believe that both mean "the great crime [or atrocity, or massacre, or slaughter] to which the Armenian people were subjected." The rules of Armenian are one, and in this case thay are similar to English. The Great Armenian Calamity sounds normally. The "Medz Yeghern" was first used in the circle of Constantinople Armenians (by Teodik, as I know), not by Ashot Sukiassian in 1960's. Sorry, but your research is completely useless and is really a wasting of time... Gazifikator (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Meowy: On May 5 you said "dictionaries are not sources", and yet used a dictionary entry to make a reversion. Aside from that, everything you said was strictly POV.

Gazificator: I assume that in your view, because of its use in the term "Hayotz Medz Yeghern" and the Armenian construction of that phrase ["The Armenians' Great 'Yeghern'] the word yeghern must shed all its meaning of evil, moral outrage, slaughter, atrocity in favor of a term that has no moral implication at all and can easily be interpreted in English as something that just occurred out of the blue. You have cited one dictionary definition and what you privately know and believe. Let me offer something more specific:

The following open letter was sent by Doctor Claude Atamian, grand-niece of the great Armenian poet Siamanto, to Madame Valérie Hannin, Director of the French monthly "L'Histoire" on April 24, 2009. I present the 11th paragraph of the French original, followed by my translation of the opening lines.

The French Original

Un élément essentiel de la désinformation au sujet du thème « Génocide arménien » concerne la traduction volontairement biaisée et en fait totalement erronée du vocable désignant en langue arménienne la tragédie de 1915 : « Medz Yeghern » c’est-à-dire le « Grand Crime» et non pas la « Grande Catastrophe », terme systématiquement utilisé par tous les pétitionnaires turcs exprimant en ce moment leur « sincère compassion » envers leurs amis arméniens. Fuad Dundar lui-même, à la fin de son interview, cite «... les massacres de Medz Yeghern (« la Grande Catastrophe » selon la terminologie arménienne)». Or, une catastrophe, c’est un événement qui ne relève pas forcément d’une décision humaine. Le Petit Robert la définit comme suit : accident, sinistre causant la mort de nombreuses personnes. S’agissant d’une grande catastrophe, on peut penser au tsunami ou à un tremblement de terre etc. D’ailleurs, le terme qui désigne la zone sinistrée du tremblement de terre de 1988 dans la République d’Arménie est « aghèti goti », mot à mot « la zone de la catastrophe ». On pense au destin, à Dieu, mais pas à la responsabilité de gouvernements criminels comme le furent indubitablement ceux des Jeunes-Turcs ou des Nazis. Cette dénomination de Grande Catastrophe permet tout compte fait de ne pas désigner l’Etat assassin, contrairement à la traduction correcte de « Medz Yeghern ». Il n’est pas étonnant que la « campagne de pardon » de quelques intellectuels turcs, (d’ailleurs tournée en dérision par Fuad Dundar lui-même à la toute fin de son interview, sous prétexte qu’elle n’a été signée que par 30.000 personnes), insiste lourdement sur cette dénomination de « Grande Catastrophe », adoptée par la plupart des Turcs, négationnistes ou pas, dans le but de masquer l’étendue du crime perpétré par leur gouvernement en 1915. [3]

The Translation

One of the essential elements of disinformation on the subject of "The Armenian Genocide" is the willfully biased and totally false translation of the Armenian term that designates the tragedy of 1915. "Medz Yeghern" means the "Great Crime" and not the "Great Catastrophe". . . . A catastrophe is an occurrence that does not necessarily involve human decision. . . . The term "Great Catastrophe" in the final analysis permits one to avoid indicating the state that kills, in contrast to the correct translation of 'Medz Yeghern".

The Link http://www.armenweb.org/espaces/louise/reportages/revue-histoire.htm

Diranakir (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Jewish name for Holocaust is Catastrophe (Shoah), and the Armenian case seems to be the same. What's the problem? I don't understand how can we change a meaning which was given by the whole nation? It's sad that Medz Yeghern became a part of great game played by dirty politicians, and for sure that is not enough reason to change the meanings of terms. We all are spending a lot of time on this useless (and disruptive, please read WP:Disrupt) conversation, so sorry, I'm leaving this... Gazifikator (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It's rather sad that Diranakir cannot seem to comprehend what deep meaning "Medz Yeghern" actually has. It and the Shoah = Catastrophe example are cases of catastrophic events (man-made or natural) being named by those who survived them using non-specific and almost euphemistic terms (another example would be the 19th-century potato famine in Ireland and Scotland being decribed as the "Great Hunger" or the "Bad Times" - there are probably many more examples). Meowy 19:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

To Gazificator: The problem is the radical difference between the two cases. Responsibility for The Shoah, more widely known as The Holocaust, was long ago accepted and firmly established by the perpetrator state (and therefore the world) as a genocide for which it was responsible.. Germany has since offered recognition and restitution to Israel and the Jewish people on many occasions as a token of that fact. In the case of the Armenian Genocide, the Turkish state has for one century adamantly and categorically denied any responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, let alone offered any compensation individually or collectively. The Armenian Genocide came first. As such, the Armenians were the first to name their genocide. That name does not need to conform to or be parallel to the Shoah or Holocaust. If this ccnversation seems useless to you then you are free to leave it. It will remain a crucial issue. Diranakir (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

In other words, you are here doing some agenda warring. Maybe you should leave, given that the issue has not been that important to you over the past two years: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide&diff=prev&oldid=354885245. Meowy 20:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

To Meowy: I am saying things in exactly the words I mean. I'm not going anywhere. Diranakir (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Your edit, however, is going unless you can provide suitable sources for your claim. I have fact tagged the "Great Crime" translation. The letter you cited is not a source, it is someone expressing their opinion in a letter and has no more weight here than your own opinion. Meowy 18:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Citation_needed#When_not_to_use_this_template While an editor may add this template ["citation needed"] to any uncited passage for any reason, many editors object to what they perceive as overuse of this tag, particularly in what is known as "drive-by" tagging, which is applying the tag without attempting to address the issues at all. Diranakir (talk) 14:55, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Now that the phrase has been fact tagged, I am giving you two weeks to provide a suitable source for your claim. That is more than sufficient time given that you have been edit warring this issue for two years. If you do not provide a source, I will deleted the "great crime" translation. If you revert my edit I will raise the matter with administrators and recommend that you are blocked from editing this page. Meowy 16:08, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

We have arrived at a point in this discussion where a compromise in which two related English renderings of "Medz Yeghern" will not be allowed to stand by Meowy. The core meaning of "yeghern" in all Armenian dictionaries is: an illegitimate, perverse, immoral, evil act. According to Meowy, this meaning is to be completely sacrificed because it is part of a "phrase". For one thing, "Medz Yeghern" is not a "phrase". It is a proper name like "The Civil War".

Translating it as "Great Calamity" has recently become a powerful tool in the arsenal of historical revisionism about the Armenian Genocide, covering up the fact that the Armenians who survived it were very clear about the criminal nature of what had just happened to them and therefore chose "Medz Yeghern" as the principal name, among many others, for designating it. Additionally, Meowy has not on his/her own presented any citations, good or bad, to back up his/her position. Meowy has only carped at the sources I have presented as non-sources--even dictionaries-- but has never seen fit to engage the points presented in them.

One final point: proper citation for the translation "Great Calamity" is long overdue if mere dogmatism is not to be the order of the day at Wikipedia. Diranakir (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

You just do not seem to get it - even though it has been repeated to you again and again and again! A dictionary is not a suitable source. Using a dictionary, you have been cherrypicking the meaning of one word then cherrypicking the meaning of a second word, and then joining them together to translate a pre-existing phrase so that it fit your pov. That is called original research. You have presented NO SOURCES that render the phrase "Meds Yeghern" as "Great Crime". You have provided not one source for your "Great Crime" in over two years of edit warring about it! There IS a citation for "Great calamity". I found many, but I simply chose the most recent. If required, I could provide dozens of different ones. However, I am no more willing to pander to you than I am willing to pander to some genocide denalist who comes demanding dozens of sources before he accepts the word "genocide" is the standard description of the events. Meowy 01:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

To Meowy, the following are a couple of quotes from your comments:

1. The "Great Calamity" translation . . . . is supported by hundreds of sources. 7 May 2012

2. There is a citation for "Great calamity". I found many, but I simply chose the most recent. If required, I could provide dozens of different ones - 14 May 2012

My question: I don't find a single citation in your comments of any of the hundreds of sources you indicate exist. Please tell me by date where you have cited them in this discussion and what they are. Diranakir (talk) 14:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

death count?

1st paragraph: ..."to have been between 1 million and 1.5 million." sidebox: Deaths 600,000 - 1,800,000[1][2][3] Smashkeyboardcreateusername (talk) 23:05, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

WWI

There is a fake info. Persian campaign and Caucasus campaign may affect Armenian people. But do you know where Gallipoli is? In west parts of Turkey Armenian people live only Smyrne and Constantinople. So you may have to clarify this info. Youcan also check the article Gallipoli campaign out. All you have to do is to start a search button (Ctrl+F) and write "armen" in... You'll see what I mean.Entuluve (talk) 09:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You need to learn more about where Armenians lived in the Ottoman empire. For the Galipoli area, I do remember reading somewhere that the Greek and Armenian inhabitants of Galipoli were deported early on after the Allied landings, though not for specific genocidal purposes but because the Ottoman authorities did not want the Allied forces to have access to a local population who might help them. However, that paragraph could also be saying that the Gallipoli fighting affected the Armenian population in other parts of the empire in an adverse way, in a similar way that the Ottoman defeat at Sarikamish did. Meowy 19:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

No. You should learn where Armenian people lived, before, and now. This never happened. There is another problem. There was other Armenian conflict of Ottoman Empire during Balkan Wars, not in Chanakkale (or Gallipoli). Greek peoples are also massacred but not in Gallipoli, it was all during Balkan Wars of Ottoman Empire. When it comes to Gallipoli, "Ittihat ve Terakki" were no longer powerful in government, which is the responsible of genocide the political party of "Young Turks".

Migration of Armenian people from Marmara,not only Gallipoli, has charged after intelligence of Russian Csardom attack plans. So Rumelian Armenian people are either killed or forced to migrate by government. Please read carefully the Article: Gallipoli campaign in wiki.

No, if you remember you read please show us with source. Some citation.Entuluve (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Wiki articles or mirror websites co not serve as a basis for writing or editing other wiki articles. Aregakn (talk) 12:12, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Toxic gas??

It reads, "Toxic gas: Dr. Ziya Fuad and Dr. Adnan, public health services director of Trabzon, submitted affidavits reporting cases in which two school buildings were used to organize children and send them to the mezzanine to kill them with toxic gas equipment." I checked this reference articles and there is no such statement. No toxic gases. This statement has to be improved with a more serious reference. (57th and 58threferences have no relation with statement.) Otherwise the statement has to be removed from article. Entuluve (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't have access to the source to check, however a quick internet search found something that appears similar (from http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6825) the text:

"Here is the first methodical introduction of gas chambers. A testimony of the gas chambers during the proceedings of the military tribunal was published in the Istanbul Newspaper Renaissance, 27 April 1919.
First we didn't realize what was happening. But one day we heard cries that abruptly ceased and were followed by a deathly silence. We then paid closer attention to what was happening. The baskets at the door of the "disinfection" hall told everything. It appears that Dr. Saib trapped the victims in a chamber equipped with some kind of toxic gas equipment with fatal effects. Those baskets were used elsewhere, such as at the Red Crescent Hospital, then the bodies of the dead or dying were disposed by dumping them in the Black Sea nearby."

Dadrian is cited as the source for this (presumably Dadrian's "The Role of Turkish Physicians in the World War I Genocide of Ottoman Armenians") Meowy 19:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

This website that you linked here is obviously a racist website. And there is no real sources. Only rumors. Here you can find the source article that i criticised. http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/1/2/169.abstract

Even this article has not enough citations too, this topic is mentioned only as a rumor. No evidence.

So those are citated are completely weak evidences and must be considered. Wiki is a good foundation but we must check every sources, everybody gives any sources, and we do not know what is inside. Is it true or amazingly fake.

This is not history but only a story here.Entuluve (talk) 19:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

The source for this dubious claim is from Dadrian. A well-known frauder in the Armenian Question. (Meowy is another of that kind: he is known for using socketpuppets to lie and cheat in Wikipedia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Meowy/Archive)

03:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)