Talk:Persian Gulf naming dispute

Historical Atlases of the Persian gulf Maps

this part should be added to the main article:

• some of the most important historical atlases of the persian gulf are as:

File:Old map.JPG

Atlas of The Arabian Peninsula in Old European Maps&the Persian Gulf

• 1- Atlas of The Arabian Peninsula in Old European Maps (253 maps) by Khaled Al Ankary, Institute du Monde Arabe,Paris and Tunisia University,2001

all 253 maps of this atlas has been printed in color and 3 languages and have the corect name of Persian gulf also the maps in pages:-141-226-323-322-331-345-347-363-355 have mentioned persian gulf for the Gulf and also persian sea for the body of water of currentArabian sea and Oman gulf , such as the hours shape map of Bunting H.S.Q34/24CM Hanover,1620.

• 2- Atlas of Historical maps of the gulf by sultan muhammad al qasimi Sharjeh 500 maps of the persian gulf .
• 3- Atlas of Iraq in old maps. by Ahmad Sussa 39 old maps of arabic and islamic sources all have the correct name of persian gulf(Bahre Fars)
• 4- Kuwait in the maps of the world 1992 . contan 80 maps all have the Persian gulf name.
• 5-Kuwait reading the historical maps, 200 maps ,1994 .
• 6-Roots of Kuwait ,15 maps ,1991.
• 7-description of the persian gulf in the historical maps by Iranology foundation , 40 maps of Islamic scholars and 120 maps of European famous cartographers 0f 1500-1900 AD.by Dr Hassan Habibi 2007.

Tehran.all the maps have the name persian gulf. and many other atlases have also been published and they have been described in the book: Documents on the Persian Gulf's name .

• Documents on the persian gulf[1]
• 32 historical map of Persian gulf[2]

.

The purpose of this article is NOT to show what is the "correct" name (as there is no such thing, only the most commonly used name), but to show both sides of a controversy. That way, there is no need to show dozens of maps that give no additional information. Uirauna (talk) 16:14, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

International Organizations

International organization and Intergovernmental organization uses the Persian gulf as the international recognized term. .

Quotations in reference list

We now have three substantial quotations in the reference list for this article, and I fear it may go the same way as the map gallery, acquiring more and more quotations as a way of point-scoring. I haven't removed any of the quotations yet, but in my view it would probably be better to have none than a random selection. Thoughts? David Trochos (talk) 06:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Hors sinus persic mare persicum.JPG Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Hors sinus persic mare persicum.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 15 February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Hors sinus persic mare persicum.JPG) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 22:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

File:Old map.JPG Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Old map.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Old map.JPG) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

keep it .there is no copy right for that map and picture.the image is freely licensed. i say that according to a radio interview with the writer of the book and the atlas. click : [3]

Huge Mess

This article is a complete low-quality mess. Too many images and text trying to prove one name is the "correct" or "real" name, when there is no such thing. Different cultures HAVE different names for the same geographical feature. IMHO it isn't even a dispute, since absolutely nothing can actually come out of it. It is more of a controversy. I propose a few changes:

• Change name to Persian Gulf naming controversy
• Remove large number of useless pictures
• Focus first on the controversy between Iran and Arab countries and how it developed
• Mention other names used by other countries and throughout history
• Mention the fact that despite "Persian Gulf" is the most commonly used name in English and several other languages, there is no such thing as a universal and absolute name for a geographical body

What do you think? Uirauna (talk) 17:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've created a draft new version at Talk:Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute/New_version, being as straightforward and pov-neutral as possible, removing dead links, unsourced information, and insignificant information such as google bomb, sports events, etc. What do you think? Uirauna (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I just read the current version of the article. I believe it's fine.

However, There could be some minor changes per discussion and consensus. In fact 08:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

BY WP standards there are way too many pictures that add nothing to the article. We don't need a gallery showing all possible maps with Persian Gulf written on them. Just a couple is enough. Also, a google bomb is not relevant at all, as well as sports events. Uirauna (talk) 13:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Although the basic thesis of the page is correct, the page as a whole is constructed as an argumentative polemic. It sets out to prove a point and does not come across as a balanced encyclopedia article should. At least half the maps should be removed, and some of the others replaced by examples of maps showing other names. The David Rumsey map collection has well over 100 relevant maps to look at;linking to it would be more useful (and even more convincing) than showing a lot of maps selected on unspecified criteria. Zero^talk 14:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is "Gulf of Bassora". Zero^talk 14:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for joining the discussion Zero. I'm drafting a new version here: Talk:Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute/New_version. Could you take a look and comment or improve it? Uirauna (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Zero that illustrations should focus on the "exceptions to the rule". I'd also like to reintroduce the problematic Hondius world atlases of 1606-7 and their derivative works somehow (the subject of previous huge arguments on this talk page), but having spent a while browsing, I'm still not sure of the best way to do it. David Trochos (talk) 10:54, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

'Focus on the "exceptions to the rule"' is obvious violation WP:UNDUE I think. --Z 18:57, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe- the aim is not to represent minority viewpoints on the topic, but to illustrate the variety of names for this body of water which have appeared on maps. David Trochos (talk) 06:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Too many maps - that's what commons is for. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

NPOV

I don't think this article is within Wikipedia NPOV policy. There is a section about viewpoint of Iran, another section about viewpoint of third parties, but no viewpoint of Arabs? A common justification for this name from their POV would be that most of those who live around it are Arabs, even those in the Iranian part. Mohamed CJ (talk) 10:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If that justification is common, one would expect that reliable sources reporting that would be easily available. An addition to this article asserting that and citing those sources would (my guess) likely be reasonable, considering WP:DUE. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:34, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The given justification above (those who live around Persian Gulf are Arab, hence the other name) is not sourced and even if sourced, is unjustifiable. The name dispute started in 1960's, before that all Arab countries accepted the international name of Persian Gulf like every other country in the world (see e.g. the map published in Saudi Arabia in 1953). Has the population around the Persian Gulf suddenly changed since 1960's? Of course not. Also, what is the source for the claim that those in the Iranian side of the Persian Gulf are also Arab? Khuzestan does have Arab inhabitants but they are not majority and not everyone in Khuzestan is Arab, even those Arabs are Iranian Arab. There are also other coastal provinces of Iran who are not Arab. If we accept this reasoning that inhabitants' language or ethnicity determines the name of international geographical places, then Atlantic Ocean must be renamed to English Ocean or African Ocean, depending on the claimant's location. BrokenMirror2 (talk) 14:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm just suggesting to include the justification for the Arabs POV in an independent section as it is done with the other viewpoints. That was just an example I saw in the Arabic version of the article. I will search for reliable sources and add them when I get time. Mohamed CJ (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense. If there's sources, a new section should be fine. CMD (talk) 17:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I found some sources presenting the Arabs viewpoint and also some interesting facts [4], [5], [6], [7]. In Arabic: [8], [9], [10]. I don't completely trust my NPOV in this topic, so I'd like someone to start this section then I'll see what I can add. Mohamed CJ (talk) 10:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Since the section explicitly is meant to present Arab opinion, there's less scope for POV issues than normal. From the above English sources, just the France24 and Aljazeera should be used. The others seem less reliable. CMD (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Alright then I'll start from now. Btw, the second English source was mentioned in France 24 (which is why I though it was ok) and the last one is a translation of a historical book by Pliny the Younger, Page 81. Mohamed CJ (talk) 19:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm also thinking about adding a historical map (from 1667) available in France 24 article which use the term "Arabian bosom". This can add some balance to images. Mohamed CJ (talk) 19:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I've used most of the sources I could find to present the Arabian viewpoint in the newly created section. Feel free to edit or modify it. Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:52, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Images

Currently, there are 11 images in the article showing "Persian Gulf" as the name of the body of water and 19 images in the gallery for the same purpose. There are zero images showing "Arabian Gulf", zero images showing it as "Gulf" and zero images showing it without name. This should be fixed.

Per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE, I suggest that to add balance, we need to make it three or four images showing the Persian Gulf. I'd choose [11], [12], [13] and [14]. For the Arabian Gulf, I think one is enough, I'd use the image found in this article. I also think we should use one of alternatives used by some third parties such as "The Gulf", "Arabo-Persian Gulf" and the no name. And one of the alternative historical names should be present as well.

Per WP:Gallery, I think the gallery should be removed, or at least most of pictures need to go, because many of them are similar or repetitive images that do not add to the reader's understanding of the subject or have encyclopedic value. Mohamed CJ (talk) 21:52, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

It'd be good to keep a UN one as well, but you're right, the current image number is excessive, and the gallery should go. They should all be appropriately categorised, but definitely don't need to be shown on this page. A map using Arabian Gulf would be useful, but the one on that website is watermarked and edited. I'm also unsure of whether it is okay in copyright to take off the France24 site. CMD (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

After some searching in the commons and going through tens of maps which said Persian Gulf (lol), I was finally able to find the three following images:

1. A French map, similar to that in France 24 article, it says "Seut Arabique" [15].
2. A US map saying "Gulph of Bassora" [16].
3. A map in an UAE museum with "Persian" removed, so it now says "Gulf" - I'm not sure if it's alright to include it, but this looks interesting to me [17]. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I've removed most images and the galler, and added two images. I think the image at top (this) should be changed to an older map, since there is a map from 17th century using the term "Arabic" and no older Persian map currently. Also, captions might need to be modified? Mohamed CJ (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I like the French Seut Arabique map. What do you think of using File:Persian-gulf-dubai-mus.JPG as the lead image? It actually shows a result of the dispute (albeit quite a sad one). CMD (talk) 14:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree (I laughed at first when reading "It actually shows a result of the dispute"). Mohamed CJ (talk) 14:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, as the aim of the dispute is to change the name on maps, so I see no better example! I shifted all maps previously on this page into commons:Category:Maps of the Persian Gulf, in case anyone wants to sieve through them again. CMD (talk) 14:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be better if we can find one of those maps using terms like "The Gulf" or the "Arabo-Persian Gulf" or no name, since parties using them usually claim they are trying to be neutral, but since none are available, we should put the one you suggested. Mohamed CJ (talk) 14:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Really? Is this NPOV?

It seems that in the name of "neutrality" and NPOV, you are removing all evidences that heavily supports "Persian Gulf", and trying to replace and enforce the "Arabian" Gulf, going so far as even suggesting to change the lead image to the one desecrated by UAE museum! Interesting that one user explicitly has "activist" in his/her id and mocks and laughs at "Persian Gulf" then requests and claims "neutrality"!

Also, sites lilke www.PersianOrArabianGulf.com is not a reliable source for supporting the dispute, even if it shows "Persian Gulf" has higher percentage of vote. It's not an official site and not everyone votes in such "advertisement-supported" websites. BrokenMirror2 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2012 (UTC)