Talk:Kashmir conflict

CM said

I have re-added the CM of J&K's statement with reference in his own words. I think that I made it neutral enough, and thus as the story got extensive coverage, the statement of the CM of an Indian administered state should have a place there. Faizan (talk) 15:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Faizan, The IP you are supporting has been referred to WP:NOTNEWS. The same applies to you. This is just day to day politics, nothing of encyclopedic value, least of all in the lead of an article that covers 70 years of history! - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya, how does NOTNEWS apply here? I am not supporting any IP, but I think that likewise the reports of European Union regarding the turnout, the reported relevant statement of the CM can get a place there too. Faizan (talk) 18:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Of course, you are supporting this IP [1]. I have no idea whether this is the same IP that first inserted this text [2]. But he/she has been told that, for a news item to get inserted into Wikipedia, it should have enduring notability [3]. You have again reinserted the text without bothering to address the issue. Is this of enduring notability in an article that covers 70 years of history? The WP:BURDEN is on you to demonstrate it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Faizan, it is covered by notnews. Mufti said it because Pakistan supported militants not done any blast during elections, why you are writing such insignificant thing in lead? This article is not about elections in Jammu and Kashmir, its about Kashmir conflict.--Human3015 Say Hey!! • 07:37, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, views of EU and UN matters, these are international organazations, some random comments by local politician for sake of politics dose not deserve place in lead. Kashmir conflict is all about views of International standard organazations. --Human3015 Say Hey!! • 07:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

We can also see that IP is requesting Faizan for "help" [4]. I think Faizan is "hopeful of adminship", I saw his name in "hopeful admins" list, but his behaviour is like an IP adress. How one can add a random quote in lead? Former Chief Minister Omar Abdullah said numerous anti Pakistani statements regarding terrorism when he was acting CM, should we add it? PM Modi also said many such statements, should we quote it in lead? In real sense Mufti's statement is also anti-Pakistan, he is thanking militants and Pakistan, he put Pakistan in category of militants. He is indirectly saying that peace in the region is depends on Pakistan, if Pakistan allows everything to happen properly without doing any attack then peace will restore in region. His statement is more like sarcastic statement. But in any case it don't deserve place in lead. --Human3015 Say Hey!! • 07:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Election 2014

Hello Friends ! in compliance with WP policies, i want a dispute resolution by some neutral WP admin. It all started when i first time read this article i found the following wording in the lead paras;

"However, elections held in 2014 saw highest voters turnout in 25 years of history in Kashmir.European Union also welcomed elections, called it "free and fair" and congratulated India for its democratic system.The European Parliament also takes cognizance of the fact that a large number of Kashmiri voters turned out despite calls for the boycott of elections by certain separatist forces.

It looked out of place in the lead because this election dealt only 45% land area of kashmir state which is disputed between india, Pakistan and China. It also looked pro india because it ignored wining pro india chief minister and wining party head comments giving credit to Pakistan and separatists for allowing elections in the state. so i inserted it with indian source reference as follows.

However, elected Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Muhammad Sayeed said, "If God forbid the Hurriyat and the militants tried to disrupt the elections these would not have been as participative as they had been. They (Pakistan) also allowed these elections to take place." Ruling Party president Mehbooba Mufti also defended Mufti's remarks.

Then what happened could be seen in detail on page history. Different tactics were used to remove these lines. My question to all my friends is "Are we good faith neutral WP community or "Are we like fraud lawyers who manipulate rules/law to achieve their goals. Might is right Or right is right ? Thanks. 39.47.121.0 (talk) 17:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

First of all, the lead is a quick summary of the article, highlighting the important ideas. There was already too much detail regarding the 2014 election, and you were adding a lot more, verbatim quotes from news reports. In general, you should add material to the article and then summarize it in the lead if it is sufficiently important. Other editors should agree with your judgement about the importance and, if they don't agree, you should discuss it on the talk page.

I have now condensed the lead, while keeping your citation. Please feel free to add more discussion in the body. Please keep in mind however that this is an article about the Kashmir conflict, not an article on the 2014 election. There is a separate article for that. If you really want to do service to Kashmiris, consider creating similar articles on elections in Azad Kashmir - Kautilya3 (talk) 17:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yup, detail should be added to the separate article as it does not cover 70 years of history. But mention of Pakistan is required too. Faizan (talk) 22:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The news is not too important for this article, you can add this in the page Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, 2014 but not in this particular page., and kautilya you don't have to be too much over the top neutral. Cosmic  Emperor  04:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3, No need to add "separatists does not tried to disrupt elections", because there are numerous sources where separatist hurriyat leaders appealed to boycott elections. There is difference between "separatists" and "militants". Separatists are more like political activist which often pelts stones but does not categorise as militants and they have done their best to appeal people regarding boycott of recent elections and also they appealed shut down on various elections days. So word "separatist" should not be included in lead stating that they didn't disrupted election. But "militants" are those who use arms and do terror attack, though there was no such major terror incidence during elections still we can't say that its because of Pakistan was not willing to do any attack or they could not do it because of strong security during elections. Still mufti thanked Pakistan for that, he thanked militants. There are clear cut evidences that political separatists tried to disrupt the elections.--Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 07:13, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not being "over the top neutral." The IP made a good argument and convinced me that this is an important part of the "Kashmir conflict" as it exists today, and so it should be highlighted. Pakistanis want credit for not disrupting elections in the neighbouring country. Dubious honour though it is, they should get it. That is part of the conflict. - Kautilya3 (talk) 07:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3, its ok if Pakistan wants credit, but does Mufti is reliable source to give credit to Pakistan for smooth conduct of elections and writing it in lead? Give me one more independent source other than Mufti's statement giving credit to Pakistan. As one user said, Mufti's this statement can be written in Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, 2014 not in lead of parent article of Kashmir conflict. Election commission of India, EU, UN officials,US officials congratulated India for smooth conduct of elections, who congratulated Pakistan? Mufti's statement came after his alliance with Hindu nationalist party BJP and he just wanted to show his voters that his ideology is not same like BJP and he is "Pro-Pakistani". So its just politically motivated statement. And we are writing it in lead of parent article. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 07:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the views of Mufti, the elected Chief Minister, can be stated with inline attribution for the current affairs of which he had direct knowledge. (This is different from Narendra Modi claiming to have known what "every Indian" thought when he was 21 years old.) - Kautilya3 (talk) 08:01, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Doesn't matter what Mufti says: You like the statement of that IP then add it to Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly election, 2014. You very well know terrorists and separatists will always try their level best to disrupt elections; but they were not successful as BSF, CRPF and Indian Army did their best to stop Pakistani terrorists from entering Kashmir. Now in a similar situation, are you going to add these following reliable references in the wiki page of Taj Mahal?

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/plea-to-declare-taj-mahal-a-shiva-temple-dismissed/article7039804.ece

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/agra/Taj-a-temple-ASI-seeks-time-to-reply/articleshow/47272218.cms

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/lawyers-want-taj-declared-a-shiva-temple/article7037345.ece

http://daily.bhaskar.com/news/NAT-TOP-taj-mahal-was-built-on-shiva-temple-are-these-leaders-out-of-touch-with-indian-r-4958953-PHO.html

http://www.thehindu.com/news/taj-mahal-part-of-an-ancient-temple-uttar-pradesh-bjp-chief/article6672772.ece

Read the above links and add them to Taj Mahal if bogus claims by politicians(without any evidence) is so important for you.

Mufti was lying and so are these people.Cosmic  Emperor  09:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

CosmicEmperor I do not agree with you statement against Kautilya3 for him showing neutrality.As far what i understand WP policies such instructions to others may disqualify anyone from editing WP because WP has high ethic standards and great reputation.

I agree with Faizan and Kautilya3 and feel that wining CM's statement who represent the state where elections were held is very important in this context. I also agree with Kautilya3 view that lead should short so I propose removal of European union and European parliament statements on following grounds

1. In the presence of European union note why to put extras like European parliament note or EU any other administrative unit/ department note.

2. Election had improved turnout as per one party (India) which was never denied by other party (Pakistan or Separatist) so there is no need for certificate service from European Union because no party dis agreed to this statement.

3. As far European Union certificate of democracy to india is concerned that is not relevant in this artical.

4. European Union is neutral but it is not Pakistan or Pro pakistan separatist it is wining pro india CM by his own self is denying EU. so rival credit by default nullifies EU allegations.

So in order to shorten lead the whole para should be read like this.

" Elections held in 2014 saw highest voter turnout in the last 25 years, However, Credit to separatist leaders and Pakistan for the smooth conduct of the assembly election was given by elected Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Mufti Muhammad Sayeed which was defended by Ruling Party leader Mehbooba mufti. 115.186.146.225 (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Question is, who are you?Cosmic  Emperor  12:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• 115.186.146.225, importance is not attached to the sources and their views, but rather to the information that is stated. The fact that the elections were found to be free and fair is important. The fact that the voter turnout was good is important. And, the fact that the separatists didn't cause disruption is important. It doesn't matter to me who said these things as long as they are reliable enough to be cited. - Kautilya3 (talk) 12:58, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

115.186.146.225 agreed 100% sir; CosmicEmperor better try playing video games; Kautilya3 good thought friend but there are so many things which are important but we can not write a movie in the lead; it should be brisk; As Sir 115.186.146.225 stated every one agreed that turnover improved so no need to add extra qualifier certificates on fairness or greatness of Indian democratic system by a regional economic depression hit union. Certificates are only pasted when confidence level of propagator is weak or his position is dubious in world eyes so he wants to hide truth with lipstick touch ups or their are different contradictory claims. On a serious note turnover was good and winner telling the is the shortest lead entry. More reliable the sources less dubious WP insertions will be specially on sensitive issues. Agree on para from sir (115.186.146.225) 39.47.50.14 (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of Aksai Chin and Azad Kashmir in this page

This article name is Kashmir conflict, Regions of former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir which are now administered by India, Pakistan and China are under the scope of this article, but this article largely contains issues related to only Indian administered side, where are more details regarding Human rights issues or elections in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan? We all should try to improve this article, obviously I will give most contribution from reliable sources but still others should also involve in this issue. [5], [6], [7], [8]. There are tonnes of other reliable sources. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 12:50, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Why lead should only contain info regarding human rights issues and elections in Indian Kashmir? why can't we add such info regarding Pakistani Kashmir too? Because both are equally disputed. I will add info regarding elections and Human rights issues in Pakistani Kashmir in lead soon, little bit busy these days. --Human3015 Call me maybe!! • 13:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

That's a valid argument. Kashmir conflict should also include Azad Kashmir and Aksai Chin. Cosmic  Emperor  14:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)