Talk:Che Guevara

Introduction

Evaluations, etc.:

An event mentioned in this article is an October 9 selected anniversary.

Physician, etc.

I see that "physician" was recently removed from the lead. He was certainly degreed in medicine. I don't know the relevant considerations in the relevant countries, and I know that these terms vary from country to country. Can someone please come up with a term that is appropriate, and put it back in the lead? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 23:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jmabel -- Would appreciate your thoughts (and those of other editors also, should they wish to give them) about the following: At 02:20, 14 September 2006, User:Kevin shepard inserted the bolded text into the 2nd sentence of the lead paragraph:

As a young man studying medicine, hoping to later become a doctor, Guevara traveled "rough" throughout Latin America, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people live.

Do you think that this addition enhances the sentence in question or that it is redundant and should be removed? Thank you, -- Polaris999 21:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I presume that a young man studying medicine would hope to become a doctor. I may be wrong but I could happily live without that additional piece of info.--Zleitzen 15:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

My feeling exactly ... -Polaris999 04:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

In the systems of medical education common in Latin America, it is my understanding that the title "Doctor" refers to completion of first four years of theoretical studies, after secondary studies. Clinical experience training which usually takes about three more additional years makes a Doctor into a "Medico." It seems from his biography that by this definition Guevara was a Doctor (if he completed the first four years) but not a Medico. El Jigue 9-17-06

You have this backwards. "Medico" is the profession - physician. "Doctor" is an especially learned person who has additional postgraduate education. It´s sort of like having a Ph.D. in addition to your M.D. in the States. But in practice all physicians are called "Doctor" or "Doctora," even if they don´t have a doctorate. Regarding Che, I find his status as a physican to be nearly irrelevant and not worthy of appearing in the opening paragraph. He spent far more effort stealing, torturing, and executing than he ever did as a healer. - PJ 11-2-06

References to 7th year of Medicine in Argentina include: "parte de la currícula de séptimo año de la Carrera de Medicina." [1] "Alumno de 7º año de la carrera de Médico" [2] "Pasantía Rural como actividad para el 7º año de la carrera de médico. " [3]. Thus it seems that my statement above is consistent with medical education in Argentina. Thus, it follows logically that Ernesto "Che" Guevara had completed only about four of the required seven years of studies that would have given him the degree of Médico. Thus I suggest that this distinction ("As a young man studying medicine, hoping to later become a doctor") has place in his biography. However, the statement that "Upon his return to Argentina, he completed his medical studies" seems incorrect. As is now my usual practice I will not change the text, but merely smile at yet another Wikipedia error. El Jigue 9-18-06

Discrepancy over motorcycle's name

While the common English translation of Guevara's motocycle's name, La Poderosa, is "The Mighty One", I feel it's an inaccurate translation. A literal translation would be "The Powerful One" as "Poder" means "Power" in Spanish. Though another translation (which makes more sense to me) would be "The Almighty." In religious use God is often referred to (mostly in prayer) as "Dios todo Poderoso" ("God Almighty"). I feel this is something that should be corrected. "The Mighty One" is the accepted translation in the biographies I've read, and though it makes insignificant difference, I felt like pointing it out. Throw 08:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Throw. That translation of "La Poderosa" was contributed by User:Phaunt at 13:01, 1 February 2005, as follows:

Revision as of 13:01, 1 February 2005 (edit) -- Phaunt (Talk | contribs) -- (→Youth - added tranlation of La Poderosa)

In 1951, Guevara's older friend, Alberto Granado, a biochemist and a political radical, suggested that Guevara take a year off his medical studies to embark on a trip they had talked of doing for years, traversing South America on a Norton 500 cc motorcycle nicknamed La Poderosa ("The mighty one"), with the idea of spending a few weeks volunteering at a leper colony in Peru on the banks of the Amazon River during the trip.     History

I have always felt that its name would be better translated as "The Powerful One" and would be pleased to see this change made if other editors are in agreement. -- Polaris999 04:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Would I be "party pooper" if I pointed out the darn thing broke down and was apparently abandoned. El Jigue 9-15-06

So true -- their travel got even "rougher" at that point!   ;-) -- Polaris999 02:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Opinions, please --

Someone recently inserted the adjective "communist" into the sentence below to describe Sartre; no citation is provided. (The source note at the end of the sentence is one that I had put there many months ago: It is a source for the comment by Sartre, not for the description of him as "communist".)

Guevara was called "the most complete human being of our age" by the French communist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre.

I would like to hear from other editors whether they consider "communist" a correct description of Sartre, or whether the adjective should be removed and the sentence returned to its status quo ante. Thank you. -- Polaris999 17:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

See your own Wikipage on Jean_Poul Sartre [4] "He embraced communism, though he never officially joined the Communist party, and took a prominent role in the struggle against French colonialism in Algeria." In my book if Sartre thought Guevara who, in the name of revolutionary marxism, killed a great many people, often with his own hands, was "the most complete human being of our age," he sounds like a communist and acts like one, no matter what label Wikipedia wants to put on him. El Jigue 9-20-06

Hello, El Jigüe -- Actually I did look at the Wikipedia Sartre article before posing the query here. However, as you know, one Wikipedia article cannot be used as a source for another, so the question as to whether or not this article re Che Guevara should describe Sartre as "communist", and, if so, what source should be given for this description remains pending. -- Polaris999 22:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

It is most certainly not our place to speculate who "sounds like a Communist". If Sartre was not a member of the CP, the adjective does not apply. Period. End of story. Some other adjective might apply, like "fellow-traveller" or "Communist-inspired". But that would only be necessary for someone with a lot less prominence than Sartre, where context was needed. People can read his article for more discussion of Sartre, if needed. In fact, I think the adjectives "French" and "philosopher" are a bit superfluous here also (arguably, he's better read as a novelist or journalist, for example... though this is hardly the place for that clarification). In an article about Guevara, we need not use any adjectives to insinuate what Sartre was or was not specifically; he's relevant just for the quote, and needs no more than his name to introduce it. LotLE×talk 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that when communists (note lower c) organize into parties they tend to have overt or red (Alba nomenclature) and black or covert members. Alba, Víctor 1968 Politics and the labor movement in Latin America. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. ASIN B0006BNYGK El Jigue 9-23-06

Thus, while it is easy to tag a "card carrying" Communist it is far more difficult to define the association of a communist to this ideology. Thus one can argue that Sartre was not a Communist and yet still was a communist. Such cases still raise interest as aging communists in Cuba, apparently seeking some kind of immortality in written history, reveal and/or enhance their original covert status as Communist Party members (PSP) e.g. García Verdecia, José (pepe “El Bravo”) accessed 9-21-06 Testimonios de las luchas del campesinado en nuestro municipio Dirección de Cultura, Colombia, Las Tunas, Cuba. Jueves 21 de septiembre del 2006 [5]. El Jigue 9-23-06

That Sartre was a "black" Communist is exactly the conclusion toward which I am leaning after what I have recently read about him. Perhaps there is an in-depth investigation of his political affiliations somewhere, and it might make interesting reading. For the purpose of this article, however, I agree with LotLE×talk that no adjectives are necessary since a link to the Wikipedia article about him is provided. -- Polaris999 17:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The double secret codicles of Wikipedia

Xe xe that response above is most amusing, it sounds as if Wikipedia is run by Dean Wormer of the movie "Animal House", with his double secret codicles. Well this most apt demonstration of a ban on internal consistency, supports my thesis that Wikipedia is frequently and selectively biased. If you want a better product you better do some of the work and look up the same reference as is cited, xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06

Since nobody seems ready even to do the smallest bit of work or is it "... each according to his ability" (:>. Here we go: "he was a political polemicist who embraced Marxism and Communism, supporting the purges of Stalin and Mao. In the latter years of his life he marched in the streets for Third World liberation and exhausted himself intellectually in the hopeless task of reconciling existentialism, Marxism, and psychoanalysis." [6]. Or " Dopo l'adesione al comunismo, Sartre trascorse il resto della sua vita nel tentativo di riconciliare le idee esistenzialistiche con i principi del marxismo, convinto che le forze socio-economiche determinino il corso dell'esistenza umana." [7]. Or perhaps "Sartre, Jean-Paul philosopher and hero of the French Resistance, lived an unconventional and full life defining and popularizing the existentialist philosophy that says humans are frighteningly free but responsible for the choices they make. (Phototheque Hachette) French thinker born in 1905, engagement philosopher, existentialist, writer and dramaturge, author of " Being and Nothingness ," "Huis Clos," " Les Mouches ," "Les Mains Sales," "La Nausee," "Critique of Dialectic Reason," and " Les Mots " for which he received, in 1960, the nobel prize that he declined; director of the forbidden "Cause du peuple" and " Liberation " until 1974. * He took part in the French Resistance and was taken prisoner in second world war.He joined the Communist Party (PC) because of the need to take an active part in the fight for the proletarian. *With Simone de Beauvoir , he traveled to Cuba China Russia Africa , to promote the revolutions." [8] xe xe Now I will lay back and watch revisionists attack each point and then defying reason say Sartre was not a communist xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06

Speaking of "double secret", what exactly is a codicle? Is this a neologism you have invented to further confound the issue?

Returning to the subject of acceptable sources for Wikipedia, here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:Reliable sources that speaks to that topic:

When reporting facts, Wikipedia articles should cite sources [2]. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Wikipedia cannot cite itself as a source—that would be a self-reference. There is a wealth of reliable information in tertiary sources such as the Encyclopædia Britannica. Note that unsigned Encyclopædia Britannica, World Book, and Encarta articles are written by staff, who may not be experts, and the articles may therefore not have the same level of credibility, but they are regarded as reliable sources for Wikipedia's purposes. When wikipedians have the ambition to write a better encyclopedia entry than those extant [3], it does not suffice to rely on the content of such tertiary sources. Therefore, in general, as primary sources are also to be treated with caution (see above), secondary sources are the stock material on which Wikipedia articles depend for their references.

Since the Encyclopædia Britannica is mentioned in Wikipedia:Reliable sources as an acceptable source for Wikipedia, I have read its article about Sartre and have extracted the following relevant statements about his political affiliation, which seems to have varied over time:

"After World War II, Sartre took an active interest in French political movements, and his leanings to the left became more pronounced. He became an outspoken admirer of the Soviet Union, although he did not become a member of the Communist Party. In 1954 he visited the Soviet Union, Scandinavia, Africa, the United States, and Cuba. Upon the entry of Soviet tanks into Budapest in 1956, however, Sartre's hopes for communism were sadly crushed. He wrote in Les Temps Modernes a long article, “Le Fantôme de Staline,” that condemned both the Soviet intervention and the submission of the French Communist Party to the dictates of Moscow. Over the years this critical attitude opened the way to a form of “Sartrian Socialism” that would find its expression in a new major work, Critique de la raison dialectique (1960; Eng. trans., of the introduction only, under the title The Problem of Method, 1963; U.S. title, Search for a Method). Sartre set out to examine critically the Marxist dialectic and discovered that it was not livable in the Soviet form. Although he still believed that Marxism was the only philosophy for the current times, he conceded that it had become ossified and that, instead of adapting itself to particular situations, it compelled the particular to fit a predetermined universal. Whatever its fundamental, general principles, Marxism must learn to recognize the existential concrete circumstances that differ from one collectivity to another and to respect the individual freedom of man." -- Sartre, Jean-Paul. (2006). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved September 23, 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-6428

I find most interesting the statement in your 3rd source (above) to the effect that "He joined the Communist Party (PC) because of the need to take an active part in the fight for the proletarian." as it is in total opposition to what is written in the Wikipedia Sartre article, the Encyclopædia Britannica Online article and, in fact, all the other sources I have consulted. I nevertheless suspect that it may be correct ... -- Polaris999 05:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Darn my old memory what "Dean Wormer" said was: "[Dean Wormer's plotting to get rid of Delta House] Greg Marmalard: But Delta's already on probation. Dean Vernon Wormer: They are? Well, as of this moment, they're on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION! " [9]

Codicle [10], is an archaic spelling for codicil [11] it means "little code or law." That is the trouble of being multilingual one sustitutes words in one language into another. Long agao Martin Albert told me that would happen and it would get worse when I got older, he was correct.

Martin L. Albert and Loraine K. Obler 1978 Perspectives In Neurolinguistics : The Bilingual Brain : Neuropsychological and Neurolinguistic Aspects of Bilingualism Academic Press ISBN 0120487500

This brings us to the question of exclusive use of translations, which bring their own conscious and unconscious baggage which cause differences between the original and the translation. I suggest that where possible, both the original and the translated versions be cited. For instance Mary Alice Waters' translation of "Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War" ISBN 0873488245 is affected both by her marxist ideology, and her lack of familiarity with the Cuban milieu, especially that of the Sierra Maestra and ethnic roots. To Waters the Sierra Montuno, --inheritor to the Taíno, Cimarrón and Mambí cultures wild, armed and dangerous-- is a mere peasant. In addition, one should take into consideration the authors’ own biases, Guevara was a tireless self-promoter, as were and still are many powerful figures in history, from Ramses II to Columbus, and Batista to Kissinger. El Jigue 9-23-06

The problem you describe in the context of the Waters' translation is the reason I detest translations and prefer to quote -- and link to -- original language texts whenever possible. -- Polaris999 17:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I've come to this belatedly, but… Granted that Sartre joined the Communist Party as a Resistance veteran at the time it was le parti des 75 000 fusillés, and was soon to become one of the parties in France's first post-war government. It was at least a contender for being the country's most prominent working class party of the time. Sartre was not a party activist. And the French Communist Party was not exactly a revolutionary force by the 1960s: they even opposed the uprisings of 1968. I don't see party affiliations being added to any of the other commentators cited in the article, and I don't think it would be appropriate to do so. - Jmabel | Talk 19:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Removal of the Spanish external links

Not to rock the boat of a clearly established and strong article... but the sizable list of Spanish language external links seems potentially unnecessary and potentially contrary to the English Wikipedia guideline on foreign language external links:

English language links are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a foreign language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English, or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language.

Articles are requested to heed this guideline, so are all these Spanish links "official" or critical enough? --Ds13 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The matter of foreign language external links was discussed at some length a few months ago: You can read that exchange at [12]. There are some Spanish-language links that I think are important to include here, for example the one to Guevara's childhood home in Alta Gracia. Several others do not meet the criteria I would establish if it were left to me, but since this is a collective effort I have chosen not to delete them, and either other editors like the links in question or they share my reticence about deleting them. However, if you wish to delete them, please explain your reasons for removing each one individually and then the discussion can begin again ... Thank you. -- Polaris999 04:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes let us rid ourselves of the language of the nations in question, except of course those who favorably describe Guevara..... Ay Vey! Although Guevara's English was said to be good [13],, as far as I know he never wrote in this language... xe xe Such is the nonsense of Wikipedia El Jigue 9-22-06

(An aside: Thank you, El Jigue, for providing this great link. I have added it to the "External Links" section of the Che Guevara article. -- Polaris999 07:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC))

Sure, I wouldn't suggest that the subject's own words in his own language could be replaced. (And they should be accompanied, where possible, by notable English translations.) But any Spanish link we list here is (or should) be duplicated in the Spanish Wikipedia article also... and that article really where Spanish readers are going to seek Spanish writings on him, don't you think? --Ds13 05:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Your statement: "But any Spanish link we list here is (or should) be duplicated in the Spanish Wikipedia article also... and that article really where Spanish readers are going to seek Spanish writings on him, don't you think?" seems to be something of an "heroic" assumption to me. I would expect that any person who is bi-lingual in English and Spanish would read the articles in both Wikipedias about him (which are quite different, by the way.) Be that as it may, it is not for us, the editors of the English Wikipedia, to tell the editors of the Spanish Wikipedia which links they should include with the Che Guevara article in that language. Also, since I make the perhaps heroic assumption that more than half of the people who read the English-language Wikipedia have reading knowledge of at least one language other than English, my personal point of view is that including a limited number of foreign language links in a designated sub-section of the "External Links" section of articles in the English Wikipedia, especially in a case where the subject's mother tongue was a language other than English, is both beneficial and educational. -- Polaris999 06:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope my assumptions are clear, but not heroic. I'll explain.

1. We should have only a select few Spanish links in an English article, per the guidelines.
2. Therefore, the Spanish links we do inclue should be the most official and critical about the subject.
3. The Spanish article allows for a broad range of Spanish links about the subject.
4. Therefore, the Spanish editors are unlikely to exclude the most official and critical links about the subject.
5. Therefore, both the English and Spanish articles should be including most official and critical links about their subject.

I think you disagree with assumption #1, but changing the WP guidelines isn't going to be accomplished on this Talk page. --Ds13 15:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with your assumption #1 and also #2; I disagree with #4 as a result of having followed the Spanish-language article for several years now. Have you looked at its "Enlaces externos" section? While I agree with your #3 that "The Spanish article allows for a broad range of Spanish links about the subject.", the fact that it allows for a broad range of Spanish links doesn't mean that such links are in reality included there. In any case, what is going on over there is not, in my humble opinion, in any way relevant to what we are doing here. As I mentioned above, I personally would favor the removal of several of the Spanish-language links currently included in the "External Links" section of this, the English language article about Che Guevara. I also consider that a few of the English language links included here do not make a significant contribution and should be deleted. Perhaps you will undertake to "prune" both sections? -- Polaris999 17:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed; even the English list of links could use a bit of trimming. And both trim jobs have already begun, it seems. --Ds13 17:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Back on 21 May 2006, I removed from the "External Links" section a recently-added link to Che Guevara Information Archive. A few days ago, it re-appeared in that section, and I am now removing it again for the same reasons I cited originally, i.e.:

I have also removed the newly-added site, Che Guevara Information Archive because (1) it devotes much of its space to commercial advertising, (2) it seems to be seriously out of date and (3) my review of it so far has failed to uncover any information not presented either in the Wikipedia CG article or in the links already included in the External Links section. Again, if others disagree, please present your reasons for supporting its inclusion here on the Talk page.

Source: Talk:Che_Guevara/Archive_5#Links

-- Polaris999 21:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion " Spanish links we do include should be the most official and critical about the subject." I interpret that to mean that only Castro government data would be allowed. Go ahead that only helps support my thesis that Wikipedia Cuban pages have fallen into the hands of Castro government supporters, El Jigue 9-23-06

"official" and "critical": hmmm, seems that someone would have to gain access to FCR's secret archives in order to find those links!! -- Polaris999 22:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

El Jique, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I can't be a supporting data point in your conspiracy thesis. Please read my comments for what they are: minor concern about relying on Spanish content in the English Wikipedia. Since verifiability comes above all else in Wikipedia, Spanish for an English reader can impede verification. --Ds13 16:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Just so that we are all on the same page, so to speak, here for your reading pleasure is the relevant section from Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links)#Foreign-language_sites:

Foreign-language sites Since this is the English Wikipedia, webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in some cases: when the website is the subject of the article when linking to pages with maps, diagrams, photos, tables; explain the key terms with the link, so that people who do not know the language can still interpret them when the webpage contains key information found on no English-language site In such cases indicate what language the site is in. For example: El País, a Spanish-language newspaper from Madrid You can also indicate the language by putting a language icon after the link. This is done using Template:Languageicon by typing {{Languageicon|<language code>|<language name>}}. Alternatively, you may type {{xx icon}}, where xx is the language code. See Category:Language icons for a list of these templates and the list of ISO 639 codes.

and, about foreign-language external links in particular, from Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#External_links:

Foreign language links English language links are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a foreign language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English, or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language. When the external links are to sites in multiple languages, it can be useful to label them with language icons, including labeling the English-language sites in the list with {{en icon}}, which shows as Template:En icon. These are available for most languages, and follow the usual two-letter language codes: for example, {{es icon}}, {{fr icon}}, etc.

-- Polaris999 02:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll also point to "such as" in the quoted passage from the Manual of Style. These examples are intended to be illustrative, not exhaustive. In any event, this is a much fought-over issue in the Manual of Style, and, from experience, there is not a strong consensus on this. I'd be very hesitant to remove any link just on the basis of what language it is in unless the equivalent is available in English, in which case the English version certainly wins. - Jmabel | Talk 19:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I agree that the Spanish Wikipedia is not relevant to the case. From my experience, their standards are simply lower. I'm involved in a lot of translation, and a typical Spanish-language Featured Article wouldn't even meet our Good Article criteria. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Che Guevara's self promotion causes problems in a "factual" article

Guevara's constant self promotion and denigration of rival associates or victims of his executions causes problems in evaluation of his effect on history. For instance in Santa Clara, in "La ofensiva," in the Congo etc, his role is self-enhanced. Details such as when he left his men in the open on the banks of la Magadalena River (Cuban river not Colombian) when facing the well trained troops of Sanchez Mosqueda, or when he came too late to support Daniel in la ofensiva and Daniel died. Or after Ubero.when he riding a mule he belittles the urban guerrillas of Frank Pais, because these urban fighters could not move fast enough to please him in the mountains. We often find that the most cited articles are those that were written by Guevara, and thus resulting product of this biased information gives a "untrue" version of events. One of the matters that is so sadly amusing is the common criticism of the Bolivian Rangers for executing him, while ignoring the many times before when he executed his perceived enemies or rivals. El Jigue 9-26-06

Well, I would reason that this is simply the sad result of a well-oiled propaganda machine in Cuba. The fact that someone of Che Guevara's background could be elevated to "saintly" status boggles the mind when one researches the man. I recall walking through Old Havana with a cousin of mine while visiting him in Cuba. We walked past several European tourists wearing the iconic Che t-shirts at which point my cousin Carli stopped and asked me "why do the Europeans hate us so much?" I was a bit puzzled and asked him to elaborate. He replied something to the effect of "these people" come into "our" country "wearing these shirt . . . " "Don't they realize what he did?" When I explained that he is often viewed as a hero throughout the world he was utterly stupefied. It's always puzzled me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatboy95 (talk • contribs)

whoops! forgot to sign. aahhhh, the powerful tilde. Goatboy95 20:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is a historical biography, as with all history this is a major problem. It's kind of like the now well-known myth that Vikings were war-obsessed raiders who did nothing but plunder, rape and pillage. The myth had always been taken as fact because the only records from the time come from the rich monastrys the Vikings selectively attacked (i.e. the Monks had a pretty biased view). "History is written by the victor" is the old saying. I think though this article, like most historical articles on Wikipedia does do a pretty good job at distinguishing the fact from the fiction and telling the reader about most of the remaining doubts. Canderra 02:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Canderra you have overlooked the Arab/Moorish Chronicles from Spain. And of course the common prayer which went more or less: "From the fury of the Vikings save us our lord." Then have you read the Viking Saga's as pertains to the new world, even the Viking women were killing each other. El Jigue 9-29-06

Just because Vikings did not surpress women in society as much as the rest of Europe did at the time, i.e. they allowed women to own land and bear arms, that does not make them "war-like". Having studied a lot about vikings and having a father who's an local amateur historian in an area of England once settled by Vikings I do know quite a lot about them and their culture. The clergy may have had that saying, but the common peasants (who alas left no records) might well have had a similar one against the clergy overlords themselves who were the land-owners and tax-collectors, and ran the courts.

This is kind of my point, the verifiability of accounts and the risk that historical records have been biased towards the record-keeper is not in anyway unique to Che Guevara, rather a common problem throughout the field history. Canderra 16:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

C: Ay vey then the Vikings were not warlike in your view and I fail to follow your argument re-Vikings. The Viking when raiding tended to kill everybody they could catch and were not worth ransom, including all classes and often in gruesome ways. The independence of Viking women is surely not proven by their murderous deeds, for such have been occurred in subservient women since at least the time of Clytemnestra (nice carpet you have there let us roll it up eh what!!). And don't bring up Geordie speaking, manglewurzle eaters, since King Canute the Dane (1017 - 1035) was well on his way to civilization, that is if such ever existed in Yorkshire. xe xe El Jigue 9-30-06

Your arguments are also flawed in the sense that the Che, who was in my view a rather a dull ideologue and not too brave a tactician, was not all powerful and there are plenty of people who chronicle his misdeeds. What is needed is a balanced presentation of both sides. El Jigue 9-30-06

I think you should do a bit of research on Vikings before you make any more massively over-simplistic comments about them. For starters, referring to 'Vikings' in such way is a massive over-generalisation of many very different groups of people who certainly did not operate under one banner and most certainly did not spend much time 'raiding'. Regardless, this is off-topic and pointless so I will not continue it any further.

In regards to Che Guevera, the parts referred to above are specifically instances when only a single or handful of sources - all partisan and therefor possibly biased either way - exist. Many secoundary academic materials are available which try to seperate the fact from the fiction and it is these which are predominantly used throughout the article (as should be in an encyclopedia). However, the fundamental problem is simply that -as most of the books stress - there are such few reliable primary sources, if there were "many people" chronically these small-scale guerrilla battles (pretty much a contradiction in terms) than this problem would not exist in the first place. Canderra 18:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

C: Those scholarly sources were not in the neigborhood. I was. Besides the bias of many of those sources is legendary. El Jigue 10-02-06

Sorry to nitpick but why is living "rough" in quotations? May I remove it without offending anyone? grendelsmother 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Is repetition really necessary?

Someone has recently made modifications to the Criticism section as a result of which its prose is now even more turgid than it had been before. Please note the sentences I have marked in bold in the following paragraph: The second bolded sentence is a virtual repetition of the first! I am putting this text here to give the person who created it, or some other editor, the opportunity to revise it. Please do so expeditiously, because writing of such poor quality cannot be allowed to linger long in a Featured Article. --Polaris999 03:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community as well as refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist. They point out that he ordered the execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons and peasants against the Cuban Revolution in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a “sociopathic thug”. Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. These critics point out that Che Guevara was "personally responsible" for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. They also believe that Guevara was a blundering tactician, not a revolutionary genius, who has not one recorded combat victory. Some critics also believe that Che failed medical school in Argentina and that there is no evidence he actually ever earned a medical degree. [3] ,[4], [5], [6], [7],[8],[9] Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics".[73] Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution.

<humor>Perhaps this could be improved by adding another sentence later in the paragraph, "All right-thinking people agree that Che Guevara personally tortured and and killed hundreds of innocents in Cuban prisons, hunted peasants from horseback, and cheated at chess." </humor> Oh, and for balance: <humor>"As we all know, only an incomprehensible bias among recent popes has deprived Che Guevara of a justly deserved beatification." </humor>- Jmabel | Talk 19:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, so now you think that the rules of chess should be the same for bourgeois imperialists as they are for honest proletariats? Please see WP:NPOV. Dasondas 20:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

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I think the criticism section is a bit of a mess, Polaris. Much work to be done by all to restore it to some level of credibility. These sections tend to get very shabby very quickly and are almost impossible to maintain. But I recommend an effort to identify the three or four key recurring criticisms of Guevara, and then attempt to write them using the standard of sourcing the rest of the article has reached. In my mind these key points are;

1. failed or dubious military strategies
2. failed economic policies
3. Obstinate, narrow dogmatic world view
4. brutality of methods both pre and post revolution--Zleitzen 03:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Zleitzen. I agree 100% with your assessment of the Criticism section, but am not optimistic about the prospects for substantial improvement. If you decide to tackle the project, however, I will support your efforts enthusiastically. By contrast, the matter of having two sentences that say the same thing in the same paragraph is an error that has a relatively simple solution -- and one that I will apply if no one else takes action. Polaris999 05:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Eulogy"

The page carries the below (unsourced) paragraph in the legacy section.

Even liberal elements that had felt little sympathy with Guevara's communist ideals during his lifetime expressed admiration for his spirit of self-sacrifice. He is singled out from other revolutionaries by many young people in the West because he rejected a comfortable bourgeois background to fight for those who were deprived of political power and economic stability. And when he gained power in Cuba, he gave up all the trappings of high government office in order to return to the revolutionary battlefield and, ultimately, to die.

To me it reads like original research - and quite frankly a eulogy rather than an accurate encyclopedia entry. Would anyone object if I removed it? --Zleitzen 03:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zleitzen. The sentences you cite seem to have been in the article since "time immemorial" and I have no clue who contributed them, although I suppose it would be possible to track him down via the History page. I personally wouldn't have any problem with your removing them provided you add something to "fill the gap" their deletion would leave. It might be interesting, however, to try to track down the original contributor and see if he would like to "cite his sources", if they exist ... What do you think? -- Polaris999 04:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: A few hours ago I left a message about this matter for User:172 whom my browsing through the "History" pages leads me to believe was the original author of the paragraph you are referencing. Perhaps we could give him a day or so to reply? -- Polaris999 17:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Update: It seems that User:172 does not intend to respond to the message I left him re sourcing for the sentences under discussion since my message has been on his User_Talk page for more than 24 hours and, although he is actively editing other pages, he has not posted a reply to it either there or here. Therefore, Zleitzen, why don't you proceed with whatever changes you have in mind? -- Polaris999 17:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think in Che Guevara's euology it should be pointed out that many were glad at his military incompetence and his arrogance which lead, through myriad miliatry blunders (he even got the language wrong in Bolivia), to the death of many vicious terrorists and himself. Still that does not bring back the rebel friend of mine who was killed. El Jigue 10-3-06

As far as I am concerned, the deaths of all the Bolivians, Cubans and individuals of other nationalities who perished in, or as a result of, that most peculiar operation -- whatever role they may have played and whichever side they may have fought on -- are lamentable, and not a cause for celebration.

-- Polaris999 21:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Guevara and his men went to Bolivia to kill to suppress all who opposed them, and establish a dogmatic marxist regime. I regret the deaths of those they killed, perhaps 150 by some counts. I feel some sorrow for Tania, as she was betrayed by her own for their own partisan purposes. Yet she was as ruthless as any other of that group. Guevara's partisans, never showed that kind of regret, and it never crossed the mind of Guevara to show mercy when dealing with those who he considered enemies or rivals. One reflects on the irony of it all, that we are expected to feel regret for the death of someone who thought of mortal hate as a virtue and is never reported to have shown mercy when he had the opportunity to kill. El Jigue 10-5-06

Humberto Fontanova quotes Guevara today ""If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm."" [14]. El Jigue 10-5-06