Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 November 5

Full reviews may be found in this page history. For a summary, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 November)

5 November 2006

Template:IPA fonts

Was deleted on TfD for being an obsolete and unused template; however, the discussion failed to consider that that template and its talk page contain part of the history and of the rationale for the list of fonts used by Template:IPA, which for technical reasons is now at MediaWiki:Common.css. I could simply move the history of both pages elsewhere (for instance, to a subpage of Template talk:IPA), however there is a link directly to the history of the page somewhere in Template talk:IPA, and other links directly into its history might be found elsewhere; this means the best course of action would be to restore it keeping its name, still marked as deprecated (like Template:Unicode fonts). If it is decided to keep it deleted, I will simply move the page histories elsewhere, breaking the links but preserving the history. --cesarb 20:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Mass deletion of organized crime related articles

Frank Abbatemarco Settimo Accardi Anthony Accetturo Felix Alderisio Gus Alex Samuzzo Amatuna Victor Amuso Anthony Anastasio Mario Anthony DeStefano Anthony Apacalo Alphonse Attardi Frank Balistrieri Sam Battaglia Milton Beasley James Belcastro Rosario Borgio Frank Buccieri Fiore Buccieri Russell Bufalino William Cammisano Louis Campagna Frank Capone Ralph Capone Frankie Carbo Sam Cardinelli Anthony Carfano Frank T. Caruso Matranga crime family William Daddano, Sr. William Dauber Angelo DeCarlo Sam DeCavalcante William D'Elia Joseph Deluca

Frank Deluca Sam DeStefano Paul DiCocco, Sr. John DiFronzo Mock Duck (recreated and presently listed for deletion) Bill Dwyer Maxie Eisen Richie Fitzpatrick Waxey Gordon Gus Greenbaum Jake Guzik Mike Heitler Max Hoff (originally merged from Boo Boo Hoff) Marshall Joseph Caifano Phillip Kastel Angelo J. LaPietra James LaPietra John Sebastian Larocca James V. LaSala Thomas Licavoli William Lipshitz Peter LoCascio Frank J. Loesch Antonio Lombardo Joseph LoPiccolo Joseph Luco Pagano Joe Luparelli Claude Maddox Shotgun Man Fredericka Mandelbaum Lawrence Mangano Louis Manna

Frank McErlane John Mirabella Michele Miranda James Mirro Hartley Mob Samuel Morton Kaoru Ogawa Jim O'Leary Jacob Orgen Frank Panno Raymond L. S. Patriarca Little Pete Alfred Polizzi Rocco Pranno Rocco Racco James M. Ragen Egan's Rats Tom Reina Charles Reiser Milton Rockman Joseph Rosenzweig Morris Rudensky Joseph Saltis Ilyas Sarkiyev Frank Scalice (deleted and rewritten as stub) John T. Scalish Arnold Schuster Anthony Scotto Jacob Shapiro Fiore Siano Joseph Sica Unione Siciliane Jack Sirocco

Labor slugger war Charles Solomon James Squillante Joseph Stacher Walter Stevens Anthony Strollo Abraham Telvi Frederick J. Tenuto James Torello John Tronolone Joseph Ullo Rocco Valenti Mabel Walker Willebrandt William White Frank J. Wilson Joseph Zerilli Frank Zito Jack Zuta Agueci Brothers Gas House Gang Hell's Kitchen Gang Messina Brothers Morelli Gang Southside O'Donnell Brothers Westside O'Donnell Brothers Sheldon Gang Shelton Brothers Gang Smaldone Brothers Sugarman Gang Tri-State Gang White Hand Gang White Hand Society Yellow Henry Gang

I have previously listed this issue at Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance)#Mass deletion of organized crime related articles and images, however from what I've been told I wuold assume this would the logical place to address the issue.

As of two days ago, over half of my organized crime contributions of which I have spent the last two and a half years compiling were deleted by a User:Cyde within a matter of hours. The reasons listed for their eletion were stated in the deletion log as "sourcing problems", however none of the articles above were ever nominated for deletion and, had I been notified of this issue by the administrator, I certainly would have provided additional sources. In addition to these articles, a longtime article, the North Side Gang, as well as two missing topics lists I compliled were deleted as copyright violations. As of this writing, I've yet to be informed as to what exectly is going on and, needless to say, this has created quite a disruption regarding Wikipedia's coverage of organized crime related subjects and countless redlinks.

I certainly understand the administrator may have felt he had just cause, however I would like to suggest that these articles (among others not listed here) deleted by said administrator be recreated and moved onto my user page so I would be able to provide sources which he would feel sufficiently sourced. MadMax 15:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Looks to me from a small sample as if these were deleted because they were from single cited sources, which raises possible copyvio problems and is also difficult if the source is not one of the better known ones (how reliable is the information?). Perhaps as a first step you would like me to restore them to your user space so you can work on adding additional sources before moving them back to mainspace? Guy 15:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• We've run into a major problem with articles for which the works of Jay Robert Nash are either the sole or primary source. I'm not certain how many of the details I'm at liberty to divulge; I'd have to ask Jimbo. For the meantime, it'll be better to re-create the articles without any reference to Nash's works whatsoever. If that cannot be done for a particular article, that article will have to stay deleted for now. Sorry. DS 15:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• This much seems to be public and should give some pointers. -- Lost^(talk) 16:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Question What about recreating the article word-for-word the same, just without the citation to Nash? This one, for example looks to have been copied and pasted from the Google cache, without the wikilinks. If the original was cribbed from Nash, then presumably the recreation would be the same, even if the References section is no longer there. Fan-1967 18:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Google provided some good information on Stracher, at least.

— This might provide some bare-bones information via congressional hearings that included references to Stracher; As it is a hearing by the U.S. Government, I believe it is in the public domain.

— http://www.namebase.org/main2/Joseph-_28doc_29-Stacher.html is a list of additional sources of information; they may or may not be available through your public library; the site is blacklisted on Wikipedia but I have no idea why.

Namebase is blacklisted on WP because it's owned and run by Daniel Brandt. DS 22:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

— Here is an article (.pdf) about immigration and its relationship with organized crime that contains a blurb on Stracher; here is the front page of the publication. —Chidom ^talk  20:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Overturn, barring official word from Jimbo on this. Seems like an utterly wrong way to go about dealing with this on the surface, and chances are, if Jimbo felt strong enough about the sourcing issue to delete them outright, he would have done so back when the report came out. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Jimbo was at the head of this deletion spree, in fact. DS 22:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, that's disappointing. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
      • No, not really. These articles all cited as sole or primary source a book whose author acknowledges that he seeds it with misinformation in order to spot copyright violations, and also asserts that such violations exist within these articles. Given an unreliable source and a credible assertion of copyright infringement (from what appears to be a litigious source) we really don't have much option but to delete. As stated elsewhere, a rewrite from better sources is not precluded, and the source can be made available if necessary. Guy 12:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Overturn deletion - Purging the articles for suspicious, Nash-based information makes sense. Mass speedy deletion does not - these were not copyright violations, vandalism or POV-pushing. Not to mention that some of the articles had ongoing, unclosed AfD processes - Skysmith 22:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• "he has repeatedly said that his books are seeded with misinformation, including incorrect facts and nonexistent people, so as to catch those who "steal" from his work". So, his books are not reliable references. If the articles were actually sourced from his books, then the article would need to be re-written, based on new sources. If they were not sourced from his books, and his books as "References" were simply tacked on, then what are the references for the articles? (And are you sure those references didn't use Nash's books as the original source?) If there is anyone to be mad at, it is this author who would pass off false information as accurate history. —Centrx→talk • 22:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Absolutely. What the hell is the point of writing a history book which has deliberate misinformation? It's perverse and vainglorious. Guy 12:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I dare say this nomination is pretty moot, since Jimbo personally deleted many of them: [1]. I'd suggest the parties involved take it up with him. Dragons flight 22:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - I suggest that these articles are undeleted into a non-mainspace location, and we look into a one off special Wikiproject to wade through them. If they are Nash sourced, and Nash includes a bibliography, then it would be possible to properly fact check these. - Hahnchen 01:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse History Deletion but recreate with better sources. Naconkantari 02:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Another case of communication breakdowns. With this many articles to delete, it would be worth it to create a template that can be deleted later that explains to the author(s)/contributor(s) why, other than "sourcing problems," the articles needed to be deleted. If some of us hadn't been in the loop (and I certainly wasn't), then we could have had a DRV that moved to restore these. As it is, I have to endorse deletion, but not the method and recommend that the figures get coverage with new articles that don't in any manner consult Nash -- that's that do not consult, not that do not refer. If there is no independent information, then there cannot be an article. We don't need an article on M. Yass, so to speak. Geogre 10:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Suggestion Restore the text of the articles in such a way that MadMax can have a copy of them so he would not have to begin again from the scratch - Skysmith 11:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn Just looking at a few cached articles it is obvious that this was overreach. E.g. the article on Frank Zito did not rely on the Nash book. And even for those that were, this falls under hoax, and hoaxes are not speediable. ~ trialsanderrors 07:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - Ick. Obviously this is a mess, but I don't think anyone except this Nash guy has acted in bad faith. I don't think there is a 'one size fits all' answer to this problem... so I'd suggest a systematic review. Go through each deleted article and determine if any information came from Nash or a source which referenced Nash. If not then there is no apparent grounds for deletion and the article should be restored. If Nash was referenced then unfortunately the articles should be reverted back to a 'pre Nash' state (possibly nothing) and rebuilt from there. If MadMax was heavily involved in most of these he can probably pick out some from the list above that he thinks had no or minimal reliance on Nash and we can check/restore those first. For others it may be easier to just rebuild them from scratch. --CBD 12:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - It is only my opinion that, while using Nash's Encyclopedia of World Crime to confirm dates, spelling, etc., those of my articles were based on numerous sources, primarily those I have direct access to (specifically Carl Sifakis's The Mafia Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia of American Crime, Robert J. Kelly's Encyclopedia of Organized Crime in the United States, Paddy Wacked: The Untole Story of the Irish American Gangster by T.J. English and Herbert Asbury's The Gangs of New York) as well as various sources online. I have compiled a listing of sources and references which I used in writing the above articles and which should have appeared in the articles at the time of their deletion. If there was poor use of referencing on my part, I would have certainly provided additional sources had I been notified there was a problem to begin with. Of those articles which I am aware of which have been deleted, I was able to provide reference which I either used directly in the article or as a demonstration of information available as a matter of public record. MadMax 17:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, I've gone through and replaced the remaining articles citing Jay Robert Nash as a referenced and replaced them with exact sources. MadMax 19:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)