User talk:Betterkeks

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TKK! bark with me! 17:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Mapframes

You should look at using {{maplink|frame=yes}} to make mapframe maps. Templates with named parameters are a lot nicer for most editors than raw json (e.g. a small typo such as removing a comma can completely trash it), plus the template can retrieve stuff from Wikidata/OSM for the page it is on without having to enter a Q-number. - Evad37 [talk] 03:02, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Happy to do that if it works. I’ll update the example. Can’t seem to get geoline working. Other than that, are there any objections to replacing the png with a mapframe?@Evad37:Betterkeks (talk) 04:34, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Once the mapframe is actually working, then I wouldn't have any objections - Evad37 [talk] 08:44, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

@Evad37: Can you please look at Victoria Avenue, Perth and tell me why the mapframe inside the Australian road Infobox is wrong (with mapframe=no removed)? I can’t figure it out, the wikidata record seems right so I’m probably just not seeing the problem. Betterkeks (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

not sure whether you have had a proper WA welcome yet

Thanks for your work on Western Australian material - much appreciated !!

Depending on your interests - there are local events in West Oz and Perth you may wish to be alerted to - we can help on that. JarrahTree 03:58, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you. I’ve been contributing to the OpenStreetMap project for about 6 years now, mostly around Perth, so it’s great to be able to start sharing that work with Wikipedia. I hope I am not treading on any toes :) ... please tell me if I am. If there are local events, I might attend at least starting off so I can find my feet, if that is OK. Where do I find out about those? Betterkeks (talk) 01:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

re:toes: nope - looks like you are improving the place - that is always very welcome

re: Perth - try the project (WA) talk page and meetup info there JarrahTree 04:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The meetup page is Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth; if you want, you can get a box to display upcoming meetup details on your user or user talk page using {{Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth}} - Evad37 [talk] 23:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox maps

{{Infobox mapframe}} is simple and makes nicely formatted maps for within infoboxes with hardly any parameters – it just requires that the Wikidata item to have midpoint coordinates. Infobox Australian road will automatically use it when the related Wikidata item has coords. (Also, thanks for the work you're doing with maps) - Evad37 [talk] 06:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Evad37: I like it, and thank you :).

What I observed emerging was the mapframes all being very similar. I was also worried about consistent styling and maintainability, especially in infoboxes. Your template solves that. I hated having to set width and height; I just want to set a ratio (like 1.618) and let it work out height from available width.

Instead of needing coords in the wikidata record, is it possible to query OSM for the bounding box? Then the mapframe knows what to focus on and what zoom level gives the closest fit. We would not need coords; especially for a long road that single point seems ... contrived.

I did find different mapframes needing a little variation here and there. For example, some maps needed zooming out more than others (so maybe a “zoom-delta” would be nice?), and I almost always wanted to add a caption to put the map in its proper context. Anyway, just some thoughts and ideas. Betterkeks (talk) 13:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

lake baghdad

The big map looks a trifle exaggerated, and the smaller map is good - any chance of more muted colours? JarrahTree 01:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I made the stroke thinner and a deeper shade of red, and zoomed out more. The big map can go I think, if you agree.Betterkeks (talk)

@JarrahTree: Are you OK with that styling now? I suggest we replace the big map with the smaller one (and drop the small map caption). If style is OK, can replicate on Government Lake Page as well. Betterkeks (talk) 01:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

In the old days we used to say 'be bold' - as I am irregularly on, better to do it, and see what it looks like - the big maps are pointless... and cartographically speaking I am against anything red - grey is better = but that is just me. cheers - keep up the good work! JarrahTree 09:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

next to and overlooks

Kings park lead paragraph - unless I am mistaken, the last time I walked along the main avenue, I could never in my experience and interest in the historical geography of perth ever consider that it is next to. Sorry I am reverting it (if someone else hasnt), it overlooks both perth water and the cbd. The proximity issue next to the cbd really challenges my sense of what geographical perception is all about. Please do not revert my reversion, but perhaps have a converstion about it. Thanks. JarrahTree 15:18, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

It looks as though I might have mis-read the page history, so I'll take it back for the moment. Need to check the edits, yet again. JarrahTree 15:23, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

By bad, apology for that I had indeed - you had put the text about proximity in the photo caption - I had misread it as being put into the caption - which I would argue with as well - Kings park' location is actually as much bounded by the river as it is in any way connected with all the tall buildings of the cbd. JarrahTree 15:28, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Would it be fair to say Kings Park is situated south west of the Perth CBD? Betterkeks (talk) 16:35, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: How about moving the last sentence of the second paragraph into the mapframe caption, replacing the caption? That last sentence is very similar to the last sentence of the first paragraph. (talk) 23:15, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: So “Kings Park overlooks the Perth central business district as well as Perth Water and Melville Water on the Swan River.” This is very similar to “... overlooking the Perth Water and the central business district of Perth, Western Australia.” Betterkeks (talk)

Thank you for considerate tolerance of an old fart - your last comment looks good - again you are generous in your consideration, thanks JarrahTree 00:10, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: No worries :). Betterkeks (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

very late notice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/50 - apologies for late notice - hope you are able to make it!! JarrahTree 04:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

your question is beyond me - there are two people in at meetup tommorrow who could possibly answer that JarrahTree 12:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

canning

I think that the 2 versions of the word noongar in the lead sentence and info box is a bit curious. just a thought JarrahTree 00:02, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you for pointing that out. I have corrected it now. As an aside, I tried using the lang-nys template, but then it shows as “Nyunga”. Do you know what the most acceptable spelling is? Betterkeks (talk) 01:42, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

multiple versions - I think noongar is the best, but gnangara is always a good call on this issue JarrahTree 02:11, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

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Lead sentences

Worth getting a handle on not overloading lead sentences and paras with junk - viz Bibbulum Track they are meant be clear of crap - try looking at articles on a phone and see what multiple refs look like on the first 10twords - junk. Lead is what lead means, summary, overview and clear of the complications. cheers JarrahTree 00:27, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Can you please tell me where in the MOS it says that? (It’s a genuine question; I want to read that bit again.)

BTW I almost always edit on a mobile device ... an iPhone. Betterkeks (talk) 01:09, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section JarrahTree 03:32, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you. Reading MOS:LEADCITE though, citations are just as encouraged in the lead as anywhere else. I would be surprised if it were otherwise. It’s just that a well-written lead should be general enough not to REQUIRE a citation, with the matter being covered in more detail in the body where it would be supported with a reference to the literature. JarrahTree, can we agree to keeping citations in the lead to a minimum, but accept that they may be warranted in some instances? Especially when the lead is not general and the material is not covered in more detail further on? Betterkeks (talk) 12:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

remember to WPSIGN. Nope not from me - I believe that articles can always have as little crap (viz viewing on phone) on the lead sentence (amazing some areas of wikipedia some editors just dont get it, like they do not identify the country, and run into stuff not showing any cognisance of what lede/lead means), and minimal refs anywhere near the first line - at the end of the lead para (there again better to have a one liner clear than let it meld into a word bomb chaos lead para)

but hey the place is losing eds and gaining idiots, if youre still editing do what you are comfortable with... just I dont support cluttered lead paras - and that could be a lifes work just fixing that issue. cheers and thanks for th opprtunity for a conversation, trust you have ac, or deep dark cellar, or waterproof iphone - its sticky here in good old ... JarrahTree 12:16, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I would like to think I listen, but then make up my own mind :). I also believe you have to know when to break the rules, and when you do then how to break them beautifully.

I’d hate to hear I’m thought an idiot.

Yes, can’t fix everything, but I do what I can. It’s easier to take a lot of material and then condense it down into a higher quality I think. Especially when it’s supported with citations. And sometimes I write poorly too ... to be fixed later :).

I have the ceiling fan on, the windows open, listening to the chirping crickets. Ahhh ... summer! Betterkeks (talk) 12:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

when I lived in Darwin and Java, ceiling fans yes... windows/mosquitos.... I wasnt inferrong/referring to you - its them, the circus/zoo that surrounds our edits, a world of dumb idiots statistically. Keep your lead paras clean.... JarrahTree 13:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Yes Sir ... subject to WP:PROVEIT ... ;) ... Betterkeks (talk) 13:24, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: In my opinion, the second sentence in the Bibbulmun Track page as currently written needs a reference to the literature. The length stated is very high resolution, down to 100 metres, and it screams WP:PROVEIT at me. If the statement was more general with the material elaborated further down (where it is then supported by a reference), then fine no reference is needed. But that is not how it is currently. Can we please support the high-resolution length with a reference to the literature? Betterkeks (talk) 00:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

gah - this is where wikipedia collapses completely. discusssion/rules goes so far, in the end intuition once you have been around long enough... works just as well as long as it isnt crazy... as long as you dont encounter the full stop parsers on a too regular basis, or the know it alls, or you cannot have discussions without wanting to go out and throw something at something solid to hear the shattering in stereo... - just do it if your intuition says way to go, go JarrahTree 00:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I hear you :). I did add a supporting reference (I saw your thanks), but only because that is what my instinct told me was needed in this one instance. I know I am wrong at times, so will always listen to other opinions. Betterkeks (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Vokes Hill, South Australia

Hi Betterkeks, I refer to your edits to Richard Maurice (explorer) and Vokes Hill Corner to Cook Road and the spelling of Vokes vs Voakes. I agree that both versions can be found in selected references but as the original author of both articles, I would prefer that the way I chose to spell the name be retained, as the current use of the name is the shorter version. I have done a lot of research into the matter, and have personally visited Vokes Hill. A photograph I took in 2007 clearly shows how the name was spelt in 1956. Another official road sign can be found here [1] I will not begin an edit war as I believe Wikipedia editors should always act in Good Faith. I will leave it to you to decide if the Richard Maurice article does not need to be altered. Summerdrought (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

sign to Vokes Hill Corner

@Summerdrought: I’m not interested in an edit war either. Going forward I won’t change this spelling in these two articles after sharing my rationale with you, and leave it up to you :).

My thinking is that there is a person called "William Paul Voake" and there are three things being named: the hill, the corner, and the road. The hill is named after Voake, and there are more authoritive references with that spelling (oldest I found was shipping manifest dating to 1865, there is also a cemetery record) than for “Voke”. The hill was named after Voake, but seems to have been known as Vokes Hill until officially re-gazetted to Voakes Hill. However, the corner was named by Len after the hill before that happened, as is clearly shown on his signs; and the road of course is named after the corner. So I think the corner and the road should continue to be spelt Vokes in recognition of all this history. It was Len’s privilege to name the corner and road, and his decision is clearly depicted on his signs. It was Maurice’s privilege to name the hill. But of course over time stuff can be re-gazetted. It is what it is :). Betterkeks (talk) 23:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Betterkeks: Thank you for your considered response to my comment, I am happy to let things be. I found a mention of William Paul Voake on Ancestry.com stating that he had travelled with Richard Maurice, and died at Fowlers Bay 29 September 1922. So I have no doubt that an early error in the spelling of the name has led to current confusion. A similar thing happened with the spelling of William Tietkens cf Tietkins. Regards Summerdrought (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Summerdrought: No worries. So the corner and road are spelt Voke, the hill and person are spelt Voake. Cool. With your permission may I add something to this effect into the Wikipedia article? Its interesting and might avoid a repeat of this in future. I added references to shipping and cemetery records to the Wikidata record for William Paul Voake (Q62963846).

BTW I love your maps. I have been contributing to the Open Street Map project for about 6 years now, so I’m curious how you make your maps. Betterkeks (talk) 01:22, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Betterkeks: Yes no problem, the more information and references the better. Funny though, if you look through the "View history" tab on my Vokes Hill Corner to Cook Road, I had made an edit on 7 March 2017 doubting the spelling of Voke in the newspaper reference. I mentioned "Murray's diary" but I think that must have been a senior moment and should have read "Maurice's diary" (I was born in 1947!). Thank you for your compliment regarding my maps, I use Inkscape an open source download. With a bit of experience, it is a great Scalable Vector Graphics programme. Cheers, Summerdrought (talk) 02:29, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

over-cat

is always a temptation, and is always a good clue when promoting editors want to get their subject/article out there - and if youre not careful a visit from the diffusing non diffusing ed from the wa project turns up and removes things anyways. It was fine as it was. JarrahTree 04:29, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

rotto

very much a case of the editors who used to edit this and related articles are either gone or otherwise involved in other areas - if a section doesnt make sense - either you need to fix it yourself, or even find something to clarify things - leaving comments or hoping for comments from others in most cases is an echo chamber - delete or improve I would suggest... if the original intentions are not clear the likelihood of an explanation - is very low JarrahTree 23:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

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happy etc

thank you very much for your edits and improvement of western australian items have a safe multanova free christmas new year - and take it easy - railway bridges are usually in their own family of categories... JarrahTree 11:18, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: Thank you, and a very merry Christmas to you and you family, and a happy new year. I undid that almost immediately ... didn’t feel right :). Betterkeks (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)