Talk:Tomorr

Amyron

Amyron was recorded only by Stephanus of Byzantium, citing Hecataeus, and it was not directly linked with Tomorr. The link is a modern hypothesis, and as such it should be included in this article, not as a fact. The content about the ultimate origin of the Dexari and the etymology of Dassaretis is WP:UNDUE and does not belong to this article. There are respective Wikipedia articles that deal with them in abundance. – Βατο (talk) 11:08, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree here, if it's a hypothesis it should be mentioned as such. N.Hoxha (talk) 13:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The statement cited by Hammond and Griffith doesn't sound like a "hypothesis" at all, in fact it is a clear statement, it reads: It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor, the central feature of Dassaretis.. Moreover, Cambridge Ancient History, vol 6, reads: The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.. It appears that Bato needs a better explanation about:

1. the removal of Chaonians/Dexari as a Greek tribe,
2. how something that "it is clear" can be interpreted as an.... hypothesis.Alexikoua (talk) 15:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Yet another problematic edit is about the claim of British journalist and writer Jeseph Swire, cited by Elsie. Bato presented it as fact nevertheless the source (Elsie) is quite clear that that's Swire's account. About this 'account' I fail to see any Greek Army presence that north, Tomorr was located much to the north from the area of military operations that time.Alexikoua (talk) 15:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Those statements remain modern speculations, not historical facts. Moreover, all that content does not belong to this article. The mentioning that the Dexari are a Chaonian tribe and that they inhabited under mount Amyron is enough for the scope of this article. The information that the Chaonains were Greek speakers because they were part of Epiotic tribes goes beyond the scope of this article. The article is not about the language spoken by Epirotic tribes, it is about a mountain. The etymology of Roman times Dassaretis, whether it was related to the Dexari or not, does not belong to this article. The only thing that can be included is that the mountain was probably located in this territory. Probably because there is not evidence from ancient sources or archeological material that can attest it. – Βατο (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

It is actually essential for the understanding of the article that Dexari/Chaones belonged to the nw Greek group. You don't believe that its neutral for the Illyrian presence to stay while ancient Greeks are removed. Also it is nowhere claimed that the specific statements are.... speculation. The authors declare that "this is clear", this means that we have no reason to degrade them. You can off course take it to the correspondent noticeboard for further input.Alexikoua (talk) 16:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

There is already stated that the Dexari were a Chaonian group, this is enough for the scope of the article. The author (Hammond) declares that "this is clear" but he does not give any further evidence, so "this is clear" for him, but it still remains a modern hypothesis because the two oronyms—Tomaros and Amyron—are never equated in ancient sources. – Βατο (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

You removed that Chaonians/Dexari belonged to the nw Greek group with the explanation that this is ....UNDUE. Additionally when an author states that this is clear it's not for us to judge him. Nevertheless you still emphasize about the Illyrian presence and how the Illyrians called the mountain in antiquity (ancient sources about that?). You understand that this is POV-pushing.Alexikoua (talk) 16:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

This article is about Mount Tomorr, which perhaps was ancient Amyron, under which inhabited the Dexari. There is already the information that the Dexari belonged to the Chaonians. The oronym Tomaros is attested in ancient sources; while Amyron is attested only in Stephanus of Byzantium, it is never equated with Tomaros. – Βατο (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

No, the given citation is quite clear and seems to contradict you: 1. the source (Hammond-Griffith) is quite clear (we should too), 2. not a single source how the Illyrians called it, 3. The Dexari/Chaonians belonged to the nw Greek group, something you stubbornly refuse to accept. So wp:BRD I assume leaves as no choice here- back to previous version then.Alexikoua (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The previous version is WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE for the scope of this article. – Βατο (talk) 16:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Mount Tomorr is located in what was called "Illyria" by ancient authors, and the modern oronym Tomor(r) derives form the Illyrian name Tomaros, it is sourced. – Βατο (talk) 16:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

According to your reasoning, the part concerning the Enchelei and the content about the full etymology of Dassaretia should also be added, but it is WP:UNDUE. Therefore, what must remain in this article is only what directly concerns it. The part The mountain has been connected by modern scholars to Mount Amyron is precisely in accordance with Hammond. – Βατο (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The correspondent sources about Tomorr/ Amyron should be restored in the article. Your POV & Illyrian-only version should be avoided. I suggest you fill a case in the correspondent noticeboard in order to recieve further input about history section. It is clear that the Dexari gave their name to the territory Dasaretis, and the Mt. Amyron is the beautiful Mt. Tomor., is what Hammond-Griffith declare. A fact that should be restored in the history section.Alexikoua (talk) 17:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Moreover, which are the ancient sources that mention the Illyrian name of the mountain?Alexikoua (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

It is not "Illyrian-only version", there is also the detailed part about the Dexari inhabiting there. The etymology of Dassaretis does not concern this article, especially because the location of Tomor in this region is not completely proven, and because it is not the correct analysis of the origin of the name, which goes beyond the scope of this article. Tomor deriving from the Illyrian Tomaros is widely accepted by scholars. – Βατο (talk) 17:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

You didn't address which ancient author /source claims that the Illyrians called this mountain as such.Alexikoua (talk) 19:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

It is mentioned by different ancient authors, but I have not to add them here, since there are many secondary reliable sources that support it. This WP:SYNTH addition is WP:OFFTOPIC. – Βατο (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

This source reads that the Chaonians were a Greek tribe [[1]] i.e. who was inhabiting this mountain. Would you be so kind not to remove it again?Alexikoua (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Well I don't expect you to provide any ancient author that mentions how the Illyrians called the mountain. It appears that only Amyron is a possible solution in terms of ancient literature.Alexikoua (talk) 23:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The name Tomaros was recorded in ancient literature. The name is Illyrian, the mountain is located in southern Illyria (it is north of the Aoos), and in a territory inhabited by Illyrians (again, the territory north of the Aoos is attested to have been inhabited by Illyrians, especially the hinterland of Apollonia). It is well sourced by modern scholars. Do not insist. Your addition is synthesis and unrelated to this article. – Βατο (talk) 09:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

You keep calling Chaonians a "Greek tribe", which is your own WP:OR. There are even many scholars that disagree also on the language originally spoken by them, there are even those who support an Illyrian affiliation or origin, or a totally different one. The only certain thing is that they or some of them spoke Greek in Hellenistic times. Anyway, it is not related to this article, it is related to the wikilinked article Chaonians. The information related to this article is only that the Dexari inhabited under Amyron, which is speculated to have been Tomor. The attested information that Dexari were a Chaonian tribe is enough for the scope of this article. Your disruptive addition of irrelevant content, synthesizing different parts from Hammond's publications without taking into account the claims of other authors, should stop. – Βατο (talk) 10:24, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing OR, but it's well established. Please avoid this kind of FRINDGE and stick to the sources. Cambridge Ancient History states: ...they lived under Mt Amyron, which is best identified with Mt Tomor. Thus the Dexari held the area which was later called Dassaretis , namely the southern part of the lakeland and the hilly country to the south west of it . The Chaones, as we shall see (pp. 434,437), were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassaretae, were the most northerly member of the group.;. Any further wp:BRD disruption of this kind will be reported.Alexikoua (talk) 11:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

1) "Greek tribe" is original research. 2) Dassaretis/Dassaretii is disputed and only a speculation for this article. 3) Your addition of un unbalanced narrative in an unrelated article is disruptive. – Βατο (talk) 11:16, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

1) Greek tribe is well established in bibliography as noted above. 2) It's about the Dexari not Dassareti. 3) What's original research is the so-called Illyrian name. We don't know how the Illyrians (if the spoke a single language) called this place.Alexikoua (talk) 11:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

An example of authors that have a completely different opinion is Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1969). Some problems of Greek history. Oxford University Press. This article must contain only information related to it, not assumptions concerning other articles. Regarding the Illyrian name of the mountain, it is well sourced. – Βατο (talk) 11:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually you pointed that there is a general consensus that Chaonians were a nw Greek tribe. That's a good step. Remind me also who ancient author states that this was the Illyrian name of the place? Alexikoua (talk) 11:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Alexi, you need seriously to read and understand the Wikipedia policies WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:UNDUE. – Βατο (talk) 12:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Given that recent removals have not been addresed per BRD the initial version needs to be restored.  I would say say that SYNTHESIS and UNDUE applies to the recent edits.Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Khirurg:, your WP:NINJA in this article should stop. This edit is original research because it says In the passage, it is reported that the Dexaroi, a Chaonian tribe of the northwestern Greek group, dwelled under this mountain. At the opposite of the synthesized POV narrative you are pushing here, the relevant ancient authors (Stephanus citing Hecataeus) did not say that Chaonians were "of the northwestern Greek group". Anyway that part is irrelevant for Mount Tomorr. Moreover the equation of the two oronyms Tomorr and Amyron is only a modern speculation, and exploiting this hypothesis to push an off-topic certain POV is disruptive for Wikipedia. The specific articles that deal with the problem of the ultimate origin of the Chaonians are linked, and that is enough for the scope of this article. – Βατο (talk) 21:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I could say the same thing about the "Illyrian" origin of "Palaeste" and Palasa. The origin of the name Palaeste is irrelevant for Palasa. Moreover the equation of the two toponyms Palaeste and Palasa is only a modern speculation, and exploiting this hypothesis to push an off-topic certain POV is disruptive for Wikipedia. The specific articles that deal with the problem of the ultimate origin of the name Palaeste is linked, and that is enough for the scope of that article. See how that works now? Khirurg (talk) 22:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)