Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 23

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Wikipedia:WikiProject Elvis Presley

I've created a WikiProject that will hopefully help focus the efforts of all of us involved with Elvis-related articles. Obviously, those of us who work on these articles collectively know pretty much everything there is to know about Elvis. However, we must keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia and just because it's published in a biography does not mean it should be included here. We want to present our knowledge to the reader as clearly and focused as possible, leaving out the gossip, hearsay and such. That's what the biographies are for. So, for what is relevant in terms of an encyclopedia, we want the readers to know everything we know.

In order to get things going in the most productive manner possible, I have the following proposal (which is reflected in the project pages, but can be changed if consensus does not support it):

A collaboration of the week, as many projects have. However, initially, rather than having a different article each week, we start with the Elvis article and do one section per week. With each section, we would follow a few short steps:

1. Paste the section, as it currently exists, to the talk page.
2. Discuss issues and possible changes.
3. Draft the rewrite and discuss.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until consensus is reached.
5. Replace current section with the rewrite.

Should there be a need to extend the time frame to more than a week, that's fine. However, each section would get no less than one week. This allows all editors to have a say in each section—even those who only edit once per week.

If consensus supports this proposal, then we can start immediately. If everyone respects this, there should be no need for page protection. However, if edit wars resume and the page is once again protected, this process will still be able to go on as stated above. The only difference will be that only I or another involved admin will be able to replace the current version with the rewrite.

Please discuss. Lara❤Love 21:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a very workable idea. Rikstar 18:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

All articles have been assessed. Some still lack an importance rating, but they're at least all tagged. Now it's just a matter of article improvement. Shall we start today? Lara❤Love 18:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Still looks like a very workable idea. So... Early life currently reads as follows:

Early life

First draft

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933.

Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins—his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church.Template:Fn Vernon has been described as "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." In 1938, he was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife, described as "voluble, lively, full of spunk", lost the family home. Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic."

Presley was bullied at school; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy."

At age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, the young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. Another resident, Johnny Burnette, recalled, "Wherever Elvis went he'd have his guitar slung across his back... [H]e'd go in to one of the cafes or bars... Then some folks would say: 'Let's hear you sing, boy.'" Presley attended L. C. Humes High School, but fellow students apparently viewed the young singer's performing unfavorably: One recalled that he was "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music."

Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. Despite his unpopularity, he was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You").

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home". His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time.

I propose shortening this to:

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933.

Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child. The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home.

At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. Presley occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income. He began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You").

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time.

Discussion

This version gets rid of quotes (which I think are generally unencyclopedic) and cuts the section down to facts, with a bit of interest thrown in. Rikstar 18:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• I like it for the most part, but I think the "mama's boy" quote is an important one. I also think the comments of "trashy boy making hillbilly music" should also be included. I think it adds context to see where he started compared to where he ended up. In the 1946 paragraph, I think it would read/flow better with a slight tweaking of the following part: "Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it." Lara❤Love 19:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Got no problems with that. I just tried to add the above to the wikiproject you created but realised you'd added your last comment. Apologies. Rikstar 20:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that the "mama's boy"quote is important

Boy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.69.5.141 (talk) 13:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Second draft

Now would read as:

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979), had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958) worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933.

Presley was born in a two room house, built by his father, in East Tupelo. He was the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." The family lived just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home.

At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. In 1949, they lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You").

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time.

Rikstar 20:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I endorse this version. It still lacks the trashy, hillbilly quote, but I missed at first that it was a quote from children, so I think it's fine to leave it out. I like this version. Lara❤Love 21:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I missed out ref. for five-piece band. Now added above. Rikstar 21:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I really don't know if I have the stomach for going through this again, but I once provided a link to a presentation which stated that something like 2 out of every 3 children are bullied in school. (The other third are probably the bullies.) I don't see what's so noteworthy about Elvis being bullied. Most films about Elvis leave out any bullying scenes. Also, why pick on the South? By current standards, the entire country was conservative in the early/mid 50s. Yes, someone wrote it. A "reliable source", no doubt. The South was one of the first areas of the country where "black sounding" music was accepted by white people (there is a lot more complexity to this, but in general it's true), so how how could it have been more conservative than the rest of the country? As far as the trashy hillbilly music part, you "should" see that in reaction to some of the early public performances, and you could use a Barbara Pittman quote that can be heard at the Experience Music Project in Seattle that is specifically about this, though not specifically about Elvis.

Oh, and how do we know that any time we spend one this version of the article will stay around after protection is lifted? Steve Pastor 23:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The bullied comment is removed in the above version. That's a good point about the South accepting black music before the rest of the country. This is the sort of stuff I don't think about. As for how will we know it will stay around after protection is lifted, we don't. But, if revisions are not appropriate and not discussed and agreed on here on the talk page, they'll be reverted. Once the article again achieves GA, it will be permalinked in the article history. Same with FA, should we get there. Lara❤Love 04:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Good points. The rewrite does mention he was "mocked and bullied", but because of his unconventional appearance. This seems to be a valid comment based on the sources I've read. I think it's significant because it shows he didn't give in to such intimidation. This attitude may well have contributed to him maintaining unconventional ways - not just regarding his looks - but with music, song choice, etc.

As for: "He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it.". This could be amended to:

"He stood out, especially in the conservative 1950s, and was mocked and bullied for it." (It could read: "... conservative America of the 1950s...", but I think that would be superfluous). Rikstar 09:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Of the two, the former reads better, "conservative 1950s". However, it's occurred to me that the reference to him standing out in the deep south refers to his look, not his sound. So in that the south accepted black music before the rest of the country has no bearing on this statement. This refers to his sideburns and flashy clothes, not his music. Lara❤Love 19:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Er...Ummm...The sideburns and ducktail haircut came from truck drivers of that day and location. So, if you were used to being around truck drivers... Lansky Brothers were selling those flashy clothes to folks other than Elvis. Bullies will seize on ANY reason to torture a victim, and most people have been bullied in their lives. If we can't agree on what the quote was about, I say leave it out. Presley's early recorded song choices were based on what Sam Phillips thought would sell, and what Scotty, Bill, and Elvis knew how to play. Steve Pastor 20:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with the latest changes. Some important facts are missing:

• Vernon has been described as "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility."
• his wife, described as "voluble, lively, full of spunk".
• Priscilla Presley recalls her as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic."

At the beginning of a biography we need some brief information about Elvis’s parents and their character. It shows the proletarian background of the singer’s family. The information also explains why Elvis was so close to his mother. According to Peter Guralnick, his mother Gladys "worshiped him from the day he was born." Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids." Later, Gladys was so proud of her boy, that she "would get up early in the morning to run off the fans so Elvis could sleep." She was frightened of Elvis being hurt: "She knew her boy, and she knew he could take care of himself, but what if some crazy man came after him with a gun? she said...tears streaming down her face."

• Presley was bullied at school; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy."

This passage should not be removed, as it is well sourced and gives a nice impression of Elvis’s unpopularity at school at that time. At the start of his fame, guitarist Scotty Moore still attested that the singer was a "typical coddled son" and "very shy": "His mama would corner me and say, 'Take care of my boy. Make sure he eats. Make sure he -' You know, whatever. Typical mother stuff." But Elvis "didn't seem to mind; there was nothing phony about it, he truly loved his mother." Moore adds that Elvis "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you."

• The conservative “Deep South” makes sense as all of Elvis’s friends were described as Southern boys and the singer was later accused of racism. His poor, white origins in deeply racist Mississippi, his purchase of an old Memphis mansion, and his association with right-wing politicians such as Richard Nixon have often been cited as proof of his conservative feelings. Here is Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock, and Elvis (University of Illinois Press, 2000):

There are several reasons why no subject associated with Presley causes greater controversy and conflict than that of race. He was, after all, a white performer whose financial success rested upon the songs and styles of black artists historically excluded from the popular music marketplace. Second, he hailed from the former slave-holding and segregated South. Third, he belonged to a white working class traditionally antagonistic to its African American counterpart. Fourth, upon achieving affluence, he purchased an antebellum-style mansion in Memphis that to many recalled the Old South as represented in Gone with the Wind. Fifth, he associated with racially conservative politicians such as George Wallace and Richard Nixon. Finally, he presumably uttered a racial slur on at least one public occasion during his career. (p.26)

As the bearer of too many painful images and memories, Presley has become a symbol of all that was oppressive to the black experience in the Western Hemisphere. (p.27)

Many have almost systematically insisted that Presley, "looking the part of a hillbilly racist," generated nothing but distrust within the black community. A black southerner in the late 1980s captured that sentiment: "To talk to Presley about blacks was like talking to Adolph Hitler about the Jews." One journalist wrote upon the singer's death that African Americans refused to participate in the numerous eulogies dedicated to him. (p.200)

Interestingly, only critical information has been removed. This is not acceptable. Onefortyone 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What critical information is that, 141? Lara❤Love 19:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Some examples. Elvis's father was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility," his mother was described as "a surreptitious drinker and alcoholic." Elvis's classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff." See also the conservative “Deep South” passage etc. Onefortyone 19:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, the current version reads:

• In 1946, Presley got his first guitar.

The following passage should be added:

• In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar.

It is of some importance that young Elvis wanted a rifle. According to Mark Crispin Miller, “Elvis gradually became an explosive megalomaniac as his wealth and boredom increased over the years. ... He loved guns, and regularly shot out television sets and light fixtures, sometimes nearly killing various acquaintances.” See Mark Crispin Miller, Boxed in: The Culture of TV (Northwestern University Press, 1988), p.191. Onefortyone 19:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather see a quote specific to Elvis and his mother rather than the descriptive quotes regarding his parents. I also like the quote that young Elvis "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you". However, the point is to trim the article so that all the information is presented in fewer words, so I disagree with your need to add information on top of information. We don't need example after example, quote after quote, to get this information across. Make the statement and support it with multiple references. Not all the references have to be quoted. Lara❤Love 20:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The information must be added. The wording may be changed. However, short quotes from mainstream biographies show that reliable sources have been used. This is fully in line with Wikipedia policies. Onefortyone 20:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ditto what Lara wrote about the non necessity of the information 141 wants included. Steve Pastor 20:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Elvis fans such as Steve Pastor are trying to exclude critical information from the article. Onefortyone 20:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

141, I don't believe all of the above information is necessary. Some only adds to further explain certain aspects of his life. It's better to state something clearly supported by references than to give three examples, in my opinion, when writing an encyclopedic article. Also, you don't have to quote a reference to show it's reliable. It's place on the reference list accomplishes that. Lara❤Love 20:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Lara, the facts that Elvis's father was "always averse to work and responsibility" and that his mother was an alcoholic etc. are important. Onefortyone 20:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What context does that add? And your comments regarding Steve Pastor are not productive. Assume good faith. We're all here to improve the article. Just because some of us don't agree with you does not mean we're acting in bath faith. Lara❤Love 20:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The information about Vernon explains why Elvis was a mama's boy. Gladys began to drink excessively because Elvis was away from her. She died very early because of her alcoholism. This is important and deeply influenced Elvis's life. Onefortyone 20:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not how it read/reads. Just throwing the information in there does not put it into context. And not all readers are going to put that together. Write it into a paragraph in such a way as to explain that without using more wording than necessary. Lara❤Love 20:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This means that the first paragraph should be extended. This may be possible. We can also return to one of the former versions of the paragraph, if you agree. For instance, in order to underscore that Elvis was heavily bullied at school, it could be added that Elvis was cornered in the bathroom of his school by a couple of boys with scissors, but was rescued by upperclassman Red West. See Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendrickx, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream (1999), p.6-7. Onefortyone 20:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(←) None of the former versions I read explained it. If you're up to it, draft it below. Otherwise, I'll try something when I get off work. Lara❤Love 21:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is an excerpt from one of these older versions:

Elvis's parents were very protective. He "grew up a loved and precious child. He was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother."His mother Gladys "worshiped him," said a neighbor, "from the day he was born." Elvis himself said, "My mama never let me out of her sight. I couldn't go down to the creek with the other kids." In his teens, Elvis was still a very shy person, a "kid who had spent scarcely a night away from home in his nineteen years." He was teased by his fellow classmates who threw "things at him - rotten fruit and stuff - because he was different, because he was quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." Psychologists believe that the disappearance of his father "Vernon from Elvis' life when the King was three (Vernon was jailed for passing bad cheques) had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development" at an age when "a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen." Guitarist Scotty Moore still attested that the singer was a "typical coddled son" and "very shy": "His mama would corner me and say, 'Take care of my boy. Make sure he eats. Make sure he -' You know, whatever. Typical mother stuff." But Elvis "didn't seem to mind; there was nothing phony about it, he truly loved his mother." Gladys was so proud of her boy, that she "would get up early in the morning to run off the fans so Elvis could sleep".

See [1]. See also [2], [3], [4], [5], etc. However, much of this material has been removed. Onefortyone (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, are you going to be willing to agree to the removal of any supporting information from this article? Particularly in sections where a main article exists for such expansion of information? Lara❤Love 21:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that it is necessary to remove all supporting information from the article. Many other biographical articles also include such information. In my opinion, important details that deeply affected Elvis's life should not be removed from the main article, especially if they are well sourced and part of most books on Elvis. Onefortyone (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This isn't really getting us very far is it? The material he cites above belongs in a detailed biog. 141 appears to want to use wikipedia to write his own biog of Presley. Does he want to help write an article that is worthy of GA/FA status? I have asked this question several times before, and 141 has not responded. Rikstar (talk) 22:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Rikstar, I indeed want to help write a well-balanced article that is worthy of GA/FA status. Therefore, critical material should not be removed. For comparison, here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia page on rock singer Frank Black. It is listed among the featured articles. See [6]. There are several quotes in the “Youth and college” section of this article:

• Charles Thompson was born in Template:City-state on April 6, 1965. His father was a bar owner, and Thompson first lived in Template:City-state as a baby because his father wanted to "learn more about the restaurant and bar business". Thompson was introduced to music at a young age, as his parents listened to 1960s folk rock. His first guitar was his mother's, a Yamaha classical guitar bought with money from his father's bar tips, which he started to play at age "11 or 12".
• Thompson's family moved around, first with his father, and then his stepfather, a religious man who "pursued real estate on both coasts"; his parents had separated twice by the time he was in first grade. ... Thompson later described the music he listened to during his youth:

“ I used to hang out with some misfits. [...] We were the 'we listen to odd-ball music' kids. I wasn't hanging out at all-ages shows or trying to get into clubs to see bands, and I was buying records at used records stores and borrowing them from the library. You just saw Emerson, Lake & Palmer records. So I didn't know [punk] music but I started to hear about it in high school. But it was probably a good thing that I didn't know it, that I instead listened to a lot of '60s records and this religious music. ”

• Thompson shared a room with another roommate for a semester before moving in with future Pixies guitarist Joey Santiago. The two shared an interest in rock music, and Santiago introduced Thompson to 1970s punk and the music of David Bowie; they began to jam together.
• In his second year of college, Thompson embarked on a trip to San Juan, Puerto Rico as part of an exchange program. He spent six months in an apartment with a "weird, psycho, gay roommate", who later served as a direct inspiration for the Pixies' song "Crackity Jones"; many of the band's early songs refer to Thompson's experiences in Puerto Rico. Thompson failed to grasp the Spanish language, and left his studies after debating whether he would go to New Zealand to view Halley's Comet (he later said it "seemed like the cool romantic thing to do at the time"), or start a rock band. He wrote a letter urging Santiago, with the words "we gotta do it, now is the time Joe", to join him in a band upon his return to Boston.

Query: if there are so many quotes in this featured article on Frank Black, why should similar quotes be removed from the Elvis article, especially if they are well sourced and throw light on the many diverse aspects of Elvis's colorful life? Onefortyone (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view states,

• All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.
• The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions.

This means that well-sourced information should not be removed because some users didn’t like the information. Onefortyone (talk) 01:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are some commentaries by third-party users concerning the Elvis page:

• Elvis was a controversial figure. His sexuality, drug taking, divorce, eating disorders etc etc all attract differing points of view. To some he was a god; to others a fat bloke who died on the toilet. For many aspects of his life there is no definitive answer. He is dead and people will continue to write with bias and an agenda. To attempt to compromise, this article needs to show both sides with suitable references and let the reader decide. Unfortunately brevity and balance appear to be mutually exclusive but until both sides are allowed their say this article will fall further into disrepute.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
• I just think that when a user expresses an interest in additions, you can't tell him that it's closed to new content. It's discouraging. You mention a rewrite, and I assume that it means you are open to revisions: removals and additions. The guinea pig article is huge, but if there is good information out there, I can't let size take precedent over content. If the general consensus on the article talk is that it's too large, that's one thing, but consensus changes. the_undertow ^talk 00:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

These commentaries speak volumes. Onefortyone (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Frank Black is 40kb. Guinea pig is 60kb. Elvis is the size of them both combined, literally. It's topics branch off into 15 main articles. Not everything has to be included in this article. The basic information explained and supported here, expanded in the main articles. Give the reader the details, all the aspects, all the points of view. But you don't have to use 3 examples for every claim. We also don't need quotes from so many people. In many cases, it's one person's opinion, and not even always a notable person's opinion. Lara❤Love 07:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Frank Black is not such a big figure as Elvis. You should compare the size of the Elvis page with Wikipedia pages on other important figures in popular music. For instance, the good article on Paul McCartney is more than 123 kb, the featured article on Bob Dylan is more than 126 kb. Furthermore, the article still doesn’t include all details and points of view concerning Elvis’s life and career. For instance, there are no details about Elvis’s personal life at Graceland, his family life and the problems he had with his stepmother. Some critical points are still missing. There is nothing on his love of guns and his predilection for dangerous games to be found in the article. It has not been mentioned that several of his friends were badly treated by the singer and that Elvis was of the opinion that "the Smothers Brothers, Jane Fonda, and other persons in the entertainment industry of their ilk," had "poisoned young minds by disparaging the United States in their public statements and unsavory activities", etc. etc. Onefortyone (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and would emphasize the need to confine extra details - critical or otherwise - to the branch articles. Also, details about Gladys' alcoholism don't need stating in Early years when they are/can be covered in the section dealing with his mother's death (didn't she drink excessively after his "early years"?). I am pleased 141 has now declared he is 'on board' with other editors; I hope he agrees with myself and LaraLove about the need to keep multiple examples out when one will do, and that this has nothing to do with the suppression of criticism by "Elvis fans". Rikstar (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Elvis's mother was an alcoholic from the beginning. This must be mentioned in the "Early years" section. Furthermore, I am not of the opinion that significant quotes should be omitted, as many of these quotes represent the knowledge of authorities on Elvis from different points of view. As Egghead06 said, "this article needs to show both sides with suitable references and let the reader decide." Onefortyone (talk) 21:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. To clarify (because I apparently am being misunderstood to some not involved with the article), I don't want any critical information removed. I'm am an Elvis fan, but of his music and look, not so much his life and how he lived it. I want all the information there, as I believe Rikstar and others do. I just want the non-critical supporting details that are not necessary removed or moved to the branch articles. Lara❤Love 14:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Onefortyone, would you mind posting your desired section in the draft section below so we can work from there? Lara❤Love 21:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Third draft

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His wife, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), an alcoholic who was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo as the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). He grew up as an only child and "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. During his absence, his wife lost the family home. Psychologists believe that the disappearance of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development" at an age when "a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen."

At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. (In later years, Elvis still "loved guns, and regularly shot out television sets and light fixtures, sometimes nearly killing various acquaintances.") In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied; classmates threw "things at him—rotten fruit and stuff—because he was different... quiet and he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy" whose guitar playing was not likely to win any prizes. Many of the other children made fun of him as "a 'trashy' kind of boy playing 'trashy' hillbilly music."

In 1949, the family lived at Lauderdale Courts, a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You").

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy, and had spent little time away from home . According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time.

This is my desired section. Onefortyone (talk) 00:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

It's longer than the current version. I think it's actually the current version rearranged with an extra sentence or two. Lara❤Love 01:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

So, after 141's considerable efforts to convince us that Gladys was a drunk because she missed Elvis, now we have the assertion that she was a drunk before that anyway. Which is true? Why not avoid needless conflict like this and just leave it out of this section?

Why do we need psychologists' beliefs about Presley's closeness to his mother? The draft states they were close. Gladys lost one son at childbirth. Why isn't this a stated reason for them being close? Because it's just more speculation.

The kid wanted a rifle. Why jump in to stuff about blowing out TV sets? Why at all? What a tenuous link, and so early in the article. This third draft is much worse than the second. And it's unnecessarily long. Why can't we keep it simple? The only useful addition is the Scotty Moore observation. Rikstar (talk) 21:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Elvis's mother was an alcoholic before she missed Elvis. She died very young because of alcohol-induced liver disease. LaraLove recommended to put the information into context so that "all readers are going to put that together." That's what I did. Psychologists believe that Elvis's closeness to his mother had a profound effect upon the singer's emotional development. This is very important and puts facts into context. The same is with Elvis's love of guns. Onefortyone (talk) 23:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need to know that Elvis and his mother "slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen", whether it is true or not? I hope this sort of thing won't be in any version of this article. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Why not? If it illustrates the poverty of his early life and is properly sourced, what is the problem? It would have been fairly common for family members in the southern states to share sleeping arrangements at that time, and any sexual innuendo is surely in the mind of the beholder. You also have to remember that sexual maturity and awareness occurred at older ages back then. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in public housing and was poor in the same general time as Elvis, not 30 miles from the Mason Dixon line. I did not sleep with my mother. Nevertheless, if it was so common, then why include it? The banal nature of some of this stuff, such as the tales of bullying, call for exclusion from the article. Regardless, of whether it was "common in the south", as you state, mainstream media generally respects the private aspects of something like who slept with whom. Of course, you have to buy into the idea that even public figures deserve some kind of privacy. I understand that in this day and age, these standards are either breaking down, or have already broken down. Given the need to exclude information to make the article an acceptable size, I think it should be left out. Steve Pastor (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The information that Elvis slept in his mother's bed up until he was a young teen both underscores the poverty of Elvis's early life and the closeness to his mother. Elvis was heavily bullied at school. He was even cornered in the bathroom of his school by a couple of boys with scissors, but was rescued by upperclassman Red West. See Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendrickx, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream (1999), p.6-7. These are important facts having a profound effect on Elvis's life. Onefortyone (talk) 00:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI "Bullying is a common experience for many children and adolescents. Surveys indicate that as many as half of all children are bullied at some time during their school years, and at least 10% are bullied on a regular basis." [7] Steve Pastor (talk) 01:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

And [8] Steve Pastor (talk) 01:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This is from the Archeive of this page, regarding the bullying information. "At one point we agreed to take it out, and it is back. See page 5 of the presentation at this url [10].In this study only 31% of students reported that they HADN'T been bullied. I identify with anyone who has been the victim of bullies, but can anyone make a good argument as to why this is so important that it shouldn't be deleted? Steve Pastor 00:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)" My question was never answered, so I ask it again. And hope for something more than more quotes from books. Steve Pastor (talk) 01:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, there was no agreement to take the bullying information out. It is very important that Elvis was heavily bullied at school, as it had a great influence on his later predilection for Karate and playing dangerous games with his guys. Onefortyone (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So, is the thinking that they slept together because they were poor and could only afford one bed? And that Elvis was close to his mother because they had slept together? And by the way, was it Elvis or his mother that is quoted saying that they did in fact sleep together? Steve Pastor (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It was Elvis's father Vernon who said that Elvis and his mother slept together. Most published biographies include these facts. In addition, here is reputed Elvis expert Elaine Dundy on Gladys Smith's house:

The Smiths' house - you would have to call it a shack - would have been made of Mississippi pine... Inside, it would have a "breezeway," a hall running through the center from the front door to the back door. The front room would contain only one proper iron bedstead covered with a patchwork quilt. The bed would be placed diagonally against two walls, this being the position in which it would take up the least amount of space, while at the same time allowing room on either side of the bed to get in and out of it. All the children, except the youngest, who always slept in the same bed with its parents, slept on what were called "made beds" on the floor. Pallets were stuffed with clean soft crabgrass and sewn into what they called a thicket. And they all slept in the same room."

See Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys, p.31. The same author writes about Gladys's close relationship with her son:

it was agony for her to leave her child even for a moment with anyone else, to let anyone else touch Elvis. Maternal love was not for Gladys a prettily sentimental attachment. Rather it was a passionate concentration which deepened into a painful intensity when her son was not there, directly in her sight. She imagined all sorts of horrors. She imagined he was being tortured and she was not there to stop it. It was physical torment for her to be separated from him. Maternal devotion is constantly misrepresented as either grasping, clinging, stifling or pathetic. It is none of these things. Every mother of a very young child has the primordial conviction, deeper than reason, that as long as her child is within her eyesight she will be able to protect him from all harm. Generally the mother outgrows this as the child grows up but Gladys all her life remained anxious over each one of Elvis' separations from her.

See p.71. Dundy adds on page 77 that neighbors also had "stories of Elvis' precocious solicitude towards his mother." Elvis always watched her and comforted her: " 'There, there, my little baby.' This strange reversal of roles between the parent and the child often takes place when one parent is absent." (p.80) Interestingly, "Vernon and Gladys were always 'his babies,' which was how the adult Elvis referred to them." (p.81) All this shows how unusually close Elvis was to his mother and how much this close relationship affected his life. Onefortyone (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the attribution, although I note that there is no direct quote from Vernon. Note that the words the author used were "would have" rather than "did have" or "was" when describing the house. This is an indication that the author was describing typical conditions rather than the specific conditions. A good writer choses words carefully. There is no question that Elvis was close to his mother, but the choice of words in draft 3 will lead to misinterpretation by most readers without too much added text. The word salacious comes to mind also. And, again, we aren't writing an Elvis biography here.

Regading previous removal regarding bullying...Probably, the rest of us agreed to remove it, and you didn't. Rikstar has again included the bully bit in draft 4. So, if in spite of the fact that bullying is commonplace (and I hope you all have looked at the links I provided) and I was bullied, too, I would say heavily, and I didn't grow up to shoot tvs, etc.... Steve Pastor (talk) 20:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

4th draft

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), who became an alcoholic, was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and eloped to Pontotoc County where they married on June 17, 1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn and given the name Jesse Garon). As an only child he "was, everyone agreed, unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line and attended the Assembly of God church.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for an eight dollar check forgery. It has been claimed that the absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development".

At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

In 1946, Presley's mother took Elvis to Tupelo Hardware to get him a birthday present. Although he wanted a rifle, he left the store with a $7.90 guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon—in addition to needing work—had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied "because he was different... he stuttered and he was a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, fellow students viewed the young singer as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music.

In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in the laundry room and also played in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley was a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" and won by receiving the most applause and thus an encore (he sang "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You").

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy. According to Scotty Moore, he "was more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. He began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail"—the style of truck drivers at that time.

A revision, to reduce it's length and redundant wording, for what its worth. I hope editors will note it is not simply a revert and that content remains because it has been discussed above. It isn't my preferred version, but like any decent editor, I am trying to accommodate others. Rikstar (talk) 11:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

The first sentence reads,

• Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver.

I think it is important to mention that Vernon was "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility." This passage should not be removed, as there is no further information about the character of Elvis's father in the article and it underscores why Elvis's mother had such a strong influence upon her son.

• At age ten, Presley made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He won second prize.

This passage may be shorter:

• At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show. Dressed as a cowboy, he sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." Onefortyone (talk) 19:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Or:

• At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep". Lara_Love 20:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree to shortening the Old Shep bit and prefer the above version. I think we could get rid of the direct quote about Vernon and make it:

• Vernon has been described as a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility [I think it reads better]. Rikstar (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As far as the above discussion regarding his early life, there seems to me to be enough relevant, sourced information to create a main article on the matter. Thoughts? Lara_Love 20:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right, but every section could potentially have its own main article. Would that be acceptable? Rikstar (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I would think so. He's notable, and those years are sourced. It will be illustrated. This article needs to be shortened for readability. It should touch on all the major points and leave the reader with an understanding and knowledge of all the important aspects of his life and career. It should leave them wanting to read more, and for that, we expand in main articles on each topic. I see no reason his early years can't support a stand-alone article. There's certainly enough information. I assume these biographies go into more details regarding his parents, no? I don't know about them. I'm interested to find out more. This is a good way to make that available to everyone who hasn't read the bios. Lara_Love ^Talk 19:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not so sure if it is really necessary that every section should have its own main article. As a colorful personality, Elvis needs one comprehensive article including many facts concerning his life and career. Query: how many users are going to read all the additional material presented in extra articles? Onefortyone (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

How many users are going to read an article the length of a book? Lara❤Love 14:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

References

Only passing by. I learned something from this content and had fun reading it, but the citation formatting is muddled (pls see below). Gwen Gale (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the example. We can look on the article page. Lara_Love 19:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Original Research ?

On a quick skim-through here, I've noticed a number of original research violations. Specifically this paragraph which I have removed [9], is a synthesis of sources serving to advance a position (check out this WP:NOR, and this WP:SYN). From experience its quite easy to fall into this sort of trap when writing articles or essay's, so we'd best be on the lookout. Time permiting I will take a closer look at the article for more orignal research, any help would be appreciated.GiantSpitoon (talk) 23:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The material you have removed is well sourced, as it is backed up by several mainstream biographies on Elvis (among them authorities such as Alanna Nash and Peter Guralnick) and eyewitness accounts of women the singer dated. You may include quotes from other sources contradicting the statements given in the said section, if there are any such sources, but do not remove well-sourced material that is not in line with your personal opinion. Here is Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley (1994), p. 415, on Elvis's alleged affairs with girls:

He was still seeing Yvonne Lime occasionally, but he was dating Anne Neyland, a former Miss Texas whom he had met on the MGM lot, and Venetia Stevenson, too, when a rumor that he was about to marry Yvonne in Acapulco broke at the end of May. "When I get married," he told the press, after the Colonel 's official denials, "it'll be no secret. I'll get married in my hometown of Memphis, and the whole town'll be there." He wasn't really serious about anyone for the time being, though. He was enjoying the single life, and when he got bored he just had to tell the guys to hunt up some girls in the lobby of the hotel. He would have them brought up to the suite, offered one observer, "and Elvis would go in the other room, he'd go in the bedroom or somewhere, and then when they came back with the girls, the girls would sit there for maybe ten or fifteen minutes, and finally one of the cousins would go in the bedroom and come out himself and another ten minutes would go by - and then in would come Elvis. And there would be like a silence, and then the cousins would say, 'Oh, Mary Jane, this is Elvis,' and the girls would be totally gone." For the more experienced girls it wasn't like with other Hollywood stars or even with other more sophisticated boys they knew. They offered to do things for him, but he wasn't really interested. What he liked to do was to lie in bed and watch television and eat and talk all night...

There can be no doubt that Elvis wasn't overtly sexually active. Onefortyone (talk) 18:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well-sourced is irrespective of the point, what you are doing is drawing these sources together to advance a position which you appeared to have reached yourself, and that is original research; in other words your creating a new narrative from a pile of sources you have hand-picked - a big no no. Also, the above quotation you have given is open to interpretation and does not explicitly state what you conclude from it (for example, that may just be ONE ocassion here Presley decided not to do whatever...). Your conclusion that Presley was not generally overtly sexually active from this and other sources bundled together is just that, YOUR CONCLUSION, and is thus original research. Oh, and I do not appreciate being accused of removing material based on the fact that I personally don't like it, please assume good faith in the future as I am with you.GiantSpitoon (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. It is not my conclusion, as most sources say that Elvis was not overtly sexually active. Even his ex-wife Priscilla confirms that this was the case. By the way, it is very interesting that you, as a new user, are well informed about Wikipedia pages such as WP:NOR and WP:SYN) and that you are so keenly interested in removing well-sourced content from the Elvis article. This strongly suggests that you may be a sockpuppet of another user who was edit warring on Elvis Presley in the past. Onefortyone (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)