Talk:South Slavic languages

To Millosh : Exactly this is genetic clasification not political. The standard Serbo-Croatian language that is based on Shtokavian doesnt exist. It is term that includes all 3 standard languages and all 4 dialects. And Slovenian is another language and not dialect thats why it must be moved on left. Luka Jačov 17:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

For Luka

Show me one single country in the world where your virtual "Serbo-Croatian" language exist? How we all knows that thing (I cannot call him language, becouase it is not and it was not) is nationalists-communists product from 1954 in Novi Sad, Serbia so where is your right, historical right to describe that like language? Learn one for all, in history of the Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro we have 3 languages and they are Bosnian, Croat and Serb language. Everything else is fiction.

To others :) Just to note that we were talking over ICQ and IRC and found that classification from Luka's edit of 22:05, 23 September 2005 is acceptable for all of us. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:04, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Torlakian

I agree that not only Serbs talk Torlakian, but I would like to hear what is deffinition of "transitional dialect", as well as I would like to see map of this and surrounding dialects. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC) I must say that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and the language of Montenegro is all the same language. Now if you want to make differentiations of that be my guest, but they are all the same language call it what you will..all of you can have a conversation no problem so they are thus mutually intelligle. I dont see Mexicans, Cubans and Argentinians fighting about a language that they all know is the same..even though clear differences exists in both slang and accent, and culture in those countries, like yours. It is still the same language so accept the fact.

Torlakian can be treated as the part of East South Slavic languages.

May I see a source for this claim? According to Pavle Ivić, all of the Torlakian dialect (in Serbia as well as in Macedonia and Bulgaria) belongs to the Western South Slavic group. --George D. Božović (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

According to Stefan Mladenov (Geschichte der Bulgarichen Sprache, Berlin - Leipzig, История на българския език, София 1979, с. 360-362) these dilects are transitional between Bulgarian and Eastern South Slavic languages. Also he comments some similarities with Ucrainian languge. Mladenov considers these dialects as more closer to Bulgarian language, than Serbian (Serbo-Croatian) . Similar are the statements of Benjo Tsonev, Rangel Bozhkov, the russian Afanasii Selishtev etc.--JSimin (talk) 16:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Bring up these points at Template talk:Southslavlang if you want. BalkanFever 06:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag?

Is there a reason for the tag still being here? --Latinus 23:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

RE: Slavic Language Greece

The Slavic language sopken in Greece is undoubtedly as South Slavic Language and it therefore should be stated in the article. I know people will say that it is disputable whether it is Dopii (Native), Macedonian or Bulgarian. The users of wikipedia should decide using evidence and post the language up on the South Slavic Lanaguage Page. P m kocovski (talk) 07:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

How about having it at Slavic language (Greece) then? Wikipedia is not the place to make up solutions - it just tells the facts without interpreting them in any way (especially in a single-POV way). --Laveol ^T 18:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Would Slavic language (Greek Macedonia) be more appropriate while still having a link to the Slavic Language (greece) as that article does not mention any other forms of slavic languages in greece apart from Macedonia. [some people may argue that other varieties of the slavic language in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace are possibly bulgarian, and only for that reason.] Whereas the article for SLAVIC LANGUAGE(GREECE) primarily deals with the lanaguage in the Western Macedonia region. Is that a satisfactory proposal? please reply logically :) P m kocovski (talk) 07:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Slovene language: dialects

"While, for example, Slovenes basically speak the same dialect" This sentence is wrong or at least unclear as there are numerous dialects spoken in Slovenia. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to make much sense. BalkanFever 12:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Serbian language no što-štokavian, serbian = šta'Bold text'-sebian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.144.143 (talk) 07:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Serbo-Croatian comrades

[1] - Perhaps you've been living under the rock for the last 2 decades, having been indoctrinated by books written by ex-professors of "Serbo-Croatian languages" who graduated "Yugoslavistics" (I've heard there are some active ones with sysop rights on German WP, pushing the "Yugoslav nationality" for every Croat and Bosniak born before the Croatia/B&H declared independence from communist claws, hehe), which for pure political reasons pushed the notion of "Serbo-Croatian dialects" as an alleged "genetic node" in the South Slavic branch. This notion of abundantly exploited for misappropriation of Croat-only cultural heritage, of which there are plenty of remnants in modern Serbian books (like this article on Serbian WP I accidentaly bumped into the other day - bugaršćice by Molise Croats and medieval Čakavian writers like Hektorović as a part of "Serbian epic poetry", what a joke!)

Well, some news for you: There was almost certainly no "Proto-South Slavic" language, and within it - certainly not some ancestor language of Chakavian+Kajkavian+Štokavian+Torlakian. There are no non-trivial isoglosses that encompass South Slavic languages only (and would thus represent common innovation). When speaking of "Croatian dialects" or "Serbian dialects", the geographical designation is the only implied, not some "genetical". Bosniak linguists like also to speak of "Bosnian dialects" as an extension of "Bosniak/Bosnian language", which should in theory be spoken everywhere where Bosniak live, even in Sandžak, but no one cares what they think and like to think anyways..

You say in your edit summary "we can't claim in the genetic section that serbian štokavian is descended from proto-serbian and croatian štokavian is descended from proto-croatian, because it isn't." - that was never claimed anyway. There is no "Proto-Croatian" or "Proto-Serbian" (the latter one maybe in some Serb nationalist book like Srbi - narod najstariji) implied in that hierarchy, because it's not a genetical classification in which hierarchy would imply the "ancestrality", but synchronic overview by regional distribution. Phrases "Serbian language" and "Croatian language", besides the sense of "standard language" have also the sense of "set of dialects on present-day Serbia and Croatia" and where significant diaspora exists whose language belongs to Croatian or Serbian on cultural grounds.

There was also no "Proto-East-Slavic", if you take into account Old Novgorod dialect that didn't exhibit extremely old change of second palatalization that operated in all the other Slavic dialects. There was also no Proto-West-Slavic - but within it, there was possibly (and probably) ancestor language for Leichitic, Czecho-Slovak and Lusatian languages. Similarly for South Slavic branch, there was possibly ancestor language for all Slovenian and Croatian dialects, and also similarly possibly Proto-East-South-Slavic (Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects) - but certianly no "Proto-South-Slavic" and within it some "Serbo-Croatian" node, who would be more unhomogeneous than any other real European language diasystem! The ancestral language of all idioms spoken nowadays by Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks and Montenegrins never existed. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)