Talk:Polish–Lithuanian relations during World War II

Origin

The article was split from Armia Krajowa, per recommendations of Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Armia Krajowa. Please see Talk:Armia Krajowa for discussions prior to the split, which resulted in the section being tagged with 'POV' tag several times.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

POV tags deletion by Lysy and Piotrus

Do not delete tags concerns raised in other articles are valid here as noted above. M.K. 22:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Please elabore here why this article is supposedly POVed, not in other articles.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

conflicts over the Vilnius region and Suvalkai region, areas whose population was mostly a mixture of Poles and Lithuanians

The Vilnius region wasn't a mixture of Poles and Lithuanians. Unbelievable ignorance.Xx236 16:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Based on Ethnic history of the region of Vilnius, Belarusians and Jews were the major minorities, Lithuanians were indeed few and far in between (even Russian and German censuses give them less than 20%, and Polish around 5%).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

After exterminations and expulsions Poles still consist a majority in certain areas. I'm not happy with this, but it exists and existed during WWII.Xx236 16:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Suvalkai region

The Suvalkai region doesn't inform about the ethnic proportions. Xx236 16:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Please comment on that article on its talkpage. It is unreferenced and possibly OR - may warrant AfD or merger, I think.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Lithuanian historiography

Please see here for a translation of relevant part of an academic article from 2004, by Alvydas Nikzentaitis, director of Lithuanian Institute of History, discussing some biases Lithuanian historigrophay had (has?) regarding the issue of Polish-Lithuanian relations during WWII. Original article: Lithuanian, German.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

A More Important Question

A day or so ago I began an attempt to copy-edit this "joke of an Encyclopedia article". Am I mistaken, or is this one of the worst examples on English Wikipedia of childish POV pushing from the various editors involved? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Historic picture

With recent attempts to remove certain historic picture under variuos suggestions [1] [2] (reassembles same pattern as here), I have to note that hardly historical images can be removed under minor edit mark as well under argument that it is not clear. Many historical images are not HQ. In other hand if contributors agrees we can move current image to Dubingiai massacre (as it presents crime scene) and the picture from Dubingiai massacre, this one, here. M.K. (talk) 13:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The other picture - also uploaded by you - is higher quality and more relevant. I see no reason we should use the bad quality photo - and keep the non-free one under fair use - when we have a better one.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

A request

It would be helpful if referenced by academic research sentences would not be modified, putting one's bias into notable scholar's mouth. Thank you in advance.--Lokyz (talk) 23:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

If you have specific issues, please list them here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Here you go - even after clearing the text according to the references provided (note that every fixed sentence is feferenced by Bubnys work) [3], [4] one editor is keep inserting his "explanations", that are not present in the cited authors text with rather insulting edit summaries [5]. Strange enough, i could not find any references in western historiography that would call LTDF a "nazi auxilairies", and even soviet historiography does not accuse them on being "auxilaries". What do I find even more unacceptable is putting Polish name on Lithuanian settlement from the interwar Lithuanian republic.--Lokyz (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As disruption still continues I'd like to ask whether any of the editors supporting the disrupted version can read Lithuanian and whether they could support their preferred version with proper quotations of the work cited.--Lokyz (talk) 11:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A new editor on the scene

An insulting edit summary as such is not worth a dime "Communist propaganda cannot beat the Yale" [6] - Pleease, could the editor identify who is Communist, and who is Yale? And what's most interesting - how does it relate to inserting back words not present in the Bubnys work (it was not published nor by communist nor by Yale). The main question in this - Greg, please revert yourself, if you'd fail to answer this simple question.--Lokyz (talk) 22:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious that Bubnys reference do not have such info as some trying to prove it like in these edits [7], [8] [9]. Therefore per WP:NOR such info should be eliminated. Also edit summaries with accusations of propaganda as well as reverts of "historical versions" do not justify inclusion of OR, and serves only for one purpose to win place per personal preferred version. M.K. (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Scholarly references outweigh other sources as per WP:V and WP:N, especially in historical articles. The content based on Arūnas Bubnys looks like original research. It should be corroborated by other educational institutions, which never happened. The article about him has been referenced by his resume supplied by his employer only, actually, a subject for AfD by WP:V if someone's cared but I doubt. But I didn't even remove that, just restored the Yale ref. I saw my input was reverted by someone. If you guys wanna go into edit war, suit yourself, play your little games. I won't bother you no more. greg park avenue (talk) 00:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with concept of WP:NOR (and yes it is research done by scholar), and also let me inform you, that Lithuanian Institute of History is internationally recognized research institute, as is the Genocide and Resistance Research Centre of Lithuania. FYI research is done not only eductional institutions, but also by scientific ones.

Anyway those excuses you've provided does not let you alter referenced text to your liking.--Lokyz (talk) 11:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have just restored content based on reliable sources coming from well established educational institutions as Yale or University of New Hampshire which you can find in almost any university library around the world, and which was modified lately by weasely inserting of a series of small digressions into main text suggesting this or that event may never happen or happened differently. And based on what? I didn't say it was based on Arūnas Bubnys, you said that. And who is this guy? A rookie whose works are available only in Lithuania and nowhere else. I won't mind if you create a subsection dedicated to his findings, just don't clutter the main thread of this historical article by unsupported revelations and reticences. Commie times are over and you don't have to write between the lines any more. It's a clear POV-pushing anyway. But as I said before I won't bother you guys with participating in this edit war no more, however, someone else more involved might. greg park avenue (talk) 18:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please watch your language talking about internationally renowned and cited historians - if one does not know Bubnys reputability there is no reason to start throwing dubious epithets. Furthermore I'd suggest you to familiarise yourself with concept or references (those blue numbers at the end of sentence) and footnotes and concept of WP:NPOV, and understand - that putting words into mouth of person did not say them, is much more than POV pushing. Until then I do not see a reason to continue this discussion.

As for accusation of "commie" - please could you clarify whom you're accusing of being commie? (let me remin that you have already been warned to stop personal attacks--Lokyz (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? When I say you write between lines, it doesn't mean I suggest you're a commie. Just the opposite. Commies wrote party lines, not between the lines. Cheer up! greg park avenue (talk) 14:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

An insult that spawns three questions

LTDF was Nazi auxiliaries, Polish names are relevant due to high % of Polish population in region, and explain your grieviances about Piotrowski on talk

Since my previous questions (see abowe) are still unanswered, I'll repeat some of them:

1. A) How many times Bubnys citation will be disrupted by one POV pushing editor? And for the n'th time - did one EVER read Bubnys publication before disrupting it numerous times and put words into the mouth of his, that does not exist in the publication.
2. B) I do not have grievances about Piotrowski, although he seems the most cited sociologist" (correct me if I'm wrong) by certain editor. But the certian editor has grievances about one nation historians, and is constantly removing the references. Care to share grievances about those?
3. C) Please feel free to explain what is wrong with attibuting Piotrowski's argument's as such. I do remember we met with one user on WP:WEASEL/talk - should we go there to find a right word again?

An extra question - strange, that such skilled Gbooks user still failed to find a reference proving about "LTDF as a Nazi Auxilary force", and still try to put words into the mouth of historians that did not say this. Cheers----Lokyz (talk) 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is disrupting Bubnys. Is it disputed that LTDF were Nazi auxiliaries/collaborators? This is a non-controversial piece of info. I'd be very surprised if Bubnys did not mention that in his Lithuanian language article, but even if he doesn't, as a non-controversial, relevant piece of info there is no need to not include it.

Tadeusz Piotrowski is a reliable scholar, sociologist and historian, whose work appeared in peer reviewed western outlets. There is no need to attribute all statements by him; doing so is a simple WP:WEASEL. And yes, feel free to ask at WP:WEASEL when the attribution is proper.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

WOW. You'll ceaseto disrupt referenced sentences ( and put words people did not ewer say into thei mouths) DID you find a single reference that LTDF was Nazi? Congratulations! I am certainly aware that it was not Bubnys:) As for LTDF - finally I've found an extensive source, surpisngly it is Bubnys again. A good one. Day by day. It will surprise one sociologist.

BTW - you failed to answer my qestions up abowe.I'm still waiting.-Lokyz (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I am looking forward to your explanation how LTDF, organized, funded and directed by the Nazi Germany for their goals - and whose autonomy was limited to carrying atrocities against Polish population - was not a Nazi collaboration organization. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you be more specific about atrocities? Because this accsuation sounds ugly, but I wonder what 2 thousand men could have done in two weeks? As for LTDF - strange enough, that over a thousand soldiers and over 100 officers of "Nazi auxilary unit" landed into three concentration camps, over 5 thousand simply disappeared in woods with arms, and circa 100 soldiers were shot, including Mariampole cadet school, who staged an armed opposition to Nazi forces. I'll revrite the article LTDF in upcoming days with full referenced material. An preview - gen. Plechavičius was notified only in late may that Jackeln issued an order for LTDF to use SS uniforms and perform nazi police functions in April 15th. Plechavičius dd also oppose the LTDF batalions entrance into Vilnius Region. There is more.--Lokyz (talk) 14:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

LTDF, numbering 10,000, as Piotrowski (p. 166) and others note, committed various attrocities against Polish populations. I will help your rewrite and add information on that, as I fear the Lithuanian sources, glorifying the anti-Soviet resistance heroes, may (again) gloss over the pro-Nazi and anti-Polish part of their history. PS. As to the fate of the exectued LTDF soldiers, many of them landed not in some concentration camps, but as Piotrowski points out (p.166) - were executed in Ponary by their fellow countrymen, ones who still carried out the orders of their Nazi masters.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, LTDF was consisting of 14 batallions, poorly armed (as for an instance 1 person got 1 bullet as for ammunition), into Vilnius region there were transferred 4 battalions. Piotrowski does not have a clue how the LTDF was formed, and how it was dissolved (or rather self-dissolved). Another fact - Germans were trying to use LTDF as mass mobilization vehicle for Lithuanians and they did not get the requested circa 200 thousand men. As for your help, thank you, but I do refuse to accept it. You still failed to answer my question about the specific extent of so called "atrocities". Have a good day.--Lokyz (talk) 19:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. You're being mislead by Piotrowski - in Paneriai there were a lot of executionists, not only Special SD and German Security Police Squad. But I'm aware this needs some deeper research than google books.--Lokyz (talk) 19:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

P.P.S.I hope you woudn't try to use AK memoirs as a source. I know the financial power of this organization veterans. Are you sponsored by them?--Lokyz (talk) 19:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

P.P.P.S. Should I suggest to help you rewrite Battle of Murowana Oszmianka? It is an exemplary article of miscitations, and btw written by Polish editor and sourced overwhelmingly by Polish sources. Should we correct it to reflect the WP:NPOV policy?--Lokyz (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Whose propaganda

Health issues in the family have severely limited my WP time. Again, let us review. The Nazis rolled out a program across Eastern Europe to make the Holocaust appear to be a spontaneous eruption of virulent anti-Semitic "self-cleansing." "Eyewitness accounts by German officers" of neighbors killing neighbors? There is proof in black and white in Nazi correspondence where you have the official report of locals (fill in Lithuanians, Poles, Latvians, Ukrainians...) slaughtering their Jewish neighbors in the most brutal manner possible contradicted by Nazi correspondence saying the very same locals refused to participate and, instead (as an example) a small German unit was sent out to slaughter the Jews in the Lithuanian countryside, this won't look good for the Germans if the news ever gets out. Of course if the Jews are all dead, who will contradict Nazi accounts blaming the Lithuanians?
   The Nazis were planting news through sympathizers in Sweden as soon as they invaded. I would suggest the editors do a bit of research away from the sources which would appear to so decisively paint both sides as evil. Any sources built on a selection of Nazi reports purporting the most barbaric behaviors by Eastern Europeans against their neighbors are suspect. You might all start with Stahlecker’s reports. Even in Gross' neighbors bludgeoning neighbors in Jedwabne, more research has indicated many of the guilty were not local Poles, nor were those "locals" lead by ethnic Poles.
   This Polish-Lithuanian mud-wrestling match over who was the worse collaborator has to stop. And especially, there were not entire armies of Lithuanian Nazi units as being suggested here and elsewhere, instead, on the order of around 300--all other partisans being explicitly disarmed by the Nazis. —PētersV (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Umm, Petras... this article has little to do with Jews. It has to do with relations between Poles and Lithuanians, and - as sad as it is - both of them did not saw the Jews as a major issue. It is also quite obvious that (percentage-wise!) there were almost no Polish collaborators - and that there were many, many Lithuanian ones (and of course we can find notable exceptions to all of that). Do note that by collaborator - one working with the Nazis - we don' necessarily mean one working in the Holocaust. LVR, for example, was a major Nazi auxiliary in Lithuania - but had almost nothing to do with the Holocaust in Lithuania. The problem with this article is in Lithuania, anti-Soviet resistance heroes were at the same time Nazi collaborators, since Nazis promised some sort of autonomy and anti-Soviet support to the desperate Lithuanians. It is understandable that many Lithuanians decided to work for the "lesser evil" - and we also have to remember that the Polish phenomena of "almost no collaboration" was aided by the fact that Nazis did not care for Poles enough to be ask them to collaborate (and were busy exterminating them for Generalplan Ost). That difference in attitude to Nazi Germany - whom Poles saw as evil occupants and Lithuanians as possible allies - caused bad blood between anti-Nazi and anti-Soviet Poles and pro-Nazi, anti-Polish (due to Vilnius issue) and anti-Soviet Lithuanians. However, revisionist Lithuanians try to erase the pro-Nazi label (since nobody wants it nowadays...), and are inventing a false story about how Lithuanians were forced to work with Nazis to save themselves from the evil Poles (Armia Krajowa intended to carry out a genocide in Lithuania, etc....). Btw, those are not my speculations, this POV is supported by scholars - including honest Lithuanian scholars, like Bubnys (it was in an interview with him that I first read of this extremist Lithuanian POV). It is, after all, only an extremist fringe (Vilnija) who supports such revisionist POV, and mainstream Lithuanian scholars, like Bubnys, produce good and honest works. But every now and often, some extremist user will try to push this POV on Wikipedia - and as minor as it is, compared to more famous POVs we are familiar is, it is as dangerous. Please note that nobody is trying to intentionally emphasize the Lithuanian collaboration issue, but it is being emphasized in a response to intentional attempt to whitewash it by demonizing Poles. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)