Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Shells (folk band) (2nd nomination)

The Shells (folk band)

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/The Shells
• Articles for deletion/The Shells (folk band) (2nd nomination)

The Shells (folk band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Written Roads (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) –

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Non-notable band; the only criterion of WP:BAND that they even come close to meeting is #1 (non-trivial coverage), but all of the coverage seems to be either trivial (tiny blurb in Seventeen) or from sources that were tagged as questionable.

The first AfD for this page was disrupted by repeated ranting about a non-notable local award that the band was nominated for (did not win): the "Best Breakout NYC Artist Award", which had MTV's name attached to it but was trivial, was never broadcast on national TV or mentioned on MTV's website, and which was only one of 8 or 9 similar local awards for other cities; its article has since been redirected after an AfD determined it was not notable. Thus, this band does not meet any of the awards-related criteria of WP:BAND. After the last AfD was closed as 'no consensus' (due mainly to the disruption), I waited about a month until their first album was released. Now it has been released, and has generated no new coverage (I searched Google Web and Google News and saw nothing that wasn't already around before) and as far as I can tell has not charted or anything. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: The article Written Roads, about their non-notable album, is also set to be merged here (see Talk:Written Roads#Merge?). If this is deleted, that article should be deleted along with it instead. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC) rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: Unless anybody objects, I am making this into a formal AfD on both articles. There is no need to deal with them separately. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Also note: User:Epeefleche, when he comments here, is the article creator (User:VMAsNYC, who created the article, was a former alternate account). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Delete both. The band is not notable. The album has not been reviewed in the national press. The album does not seem to have been reviewed by the regional press. The album does not even seem to have been reviewed by the specialist folk music press. So what have we got in the way of notability? Being selected for, but not winning, the regional leg of a competition under the auspices of MTV (but not broadcast nationally)? That's something but it is not good enough in itself. A very brief feature in Seventeen? Even allowing for Seventeen's terse style, 92 words is not "significant coverage". And then there is all the PR stuff, which is worthless. What we have here is an aspiring band that doesn't meet the notability requirements at all. Maybe they will one day but they need to get some reviews and sell some records first. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete both per DanielRigal's well-explained rationale. There are absolutely no significant secondary sources. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 17:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete both, insufficient secondary-source coverage to comply with the notability policy. The award nomination did initially give a potential for meeting WP:BAND, but with the now-apparent local and obscure nature of it it confers minimal notability. ~ mazca ^talk 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• Delete both since the band fails to meet the notability requirements. The MTV award is a regional rather than a national prize, which they didn't win in any case. That leaves one mention in a magazine, which does not constitute the kind of coverage required to establish notability. Their album isn't available to buy from any major music supplier and seems to be download-only. Nor has it been reviewed in the music press. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Per WP:BAND, a band may be notable if it "Has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician or ensemble itself and reliable." I count three references that qualify. (1) The Seventeen article, or blurb if you prefer. It's brief, all right, but it's about the band, and it's in a major publication. (2) The article in the Queens Chronicle. A full fledged article, in a local newspaper. (3) Several paragraphs in a longer article in The Improper, which I just found and which is not referenced in The Shells article. The Improper appears to be an independent and reliable online arts and entertainment magazine. When the guideline talks about "non-trivial published works", the intention I believe is to exclude things like being mentioned in the weekend entertainment listings of a newspaper, or having your own article in your Boy Scout troop's newsletter. Then there's the nomination for Best Breakout New York City Artist Award. Okay, it's not really a major award, but it was associated with the MTV Video Music Awards, so it's not nothing either. In summary, it seems the band has three non-trivial independent references, plus, for whatever it's worth, the award nomination. I do think the album article could be merged with the band article for now though. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is how I see it:

• The Improper: May or may not be RS. Clearly just a passing mention of the fact that they played a joint gig at an event organised by their PR agency in conjunction with the The Improper itself. The extent of the relationship between The Improper and the band's PR agency is not clear but there obviously is one. In short, this is possibly PR coverage a definitely PR event. Trivial.
• Queens Chronicle: This is a simple plug for a local band. Not sure if it was ever published in print form. Nothing wrong with that, as it is done openly and honestly, but it does not impart much, if any, notability. I could make hundreds, no, make that thousands, of articles if we regard that coverage as imparting notability, just by scouring the UK local newspapers for articles that boil down to "Local band has a gig/event in town. Please go support them.". Trivial.
• "MTV": This band is not even on MTV's radar. Search for "The Shells" or "Written Roads" at MTV.com. See anything? Me neither. The competition, irrespective of its questionable linkage to MTV, would be worth something if they won, which they didn't. As it stands, it is worth a little. Slightly better than trivial.
• Seventeen: This is the best thing so far but it really isn't much. It is RS and it is better than trivial.

So what does that add up to? It is not significant coverage in my eyes. Give us two or three more featurettes like the one in Seventeen or just one proper gig or album review in a good RS source and then I will reconsider my vote. --DanielRigal (talk) 11:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Keep Both. The band article clearly satisfies WP:BAND. The guidance's test for notability is that the band meet any 1 of 12 criteria. This band meets 3 of the criteria. Three times what it must meet to qualify.

1. Subject of Multiple Non-trivial Independent Reliable Public Works. One criterion that the band meets is # 1. Because it has "been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the [band] itself and reliable."

First, the review of the band by Seventeen Magazine (reporting for 65 years; its circulation of 22 million is the 39th-highest in the US) two months ago states:

Band Spotlight: The Shells

August 5, 2009

Album: Written Roads (coming out October 8!)

Myspace: myspace.com/bombshelltrio

The vibe: Indie folk-rock mixed with a little R&B. Very Dixie Chicks meets Indigo Girls.

Why you should listen: These three gorgeous girls wrote most of the songs on their new album themselves! Their original sound was dubbed "cosmo country" — a blend of city pop with folk. Love it!

Our fave songs: Give a Little Take a Little, Wrong from the Start.

Seventeen's review plainly surpasses the guidance's "triviality" threshhold. WP:BAND's triviality test is not based on the number of words in the reference. But rather on the nature of the content. The guidance specifies that "trivial" refers to those articles that do not do more than: “simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories.” Seventeen's review clearly does much more than that. It provides the reviewer's actual reviews and opinion of both the band and the band's CD. The review is in the magazine's concise format of choice. That format appears to work for Seventeen, inasmuch as the magazine is the largest-selling magazine to US college freshman.

Second, the review by Queens Chronicle last month (a newspaper which has been reporting for 30 years and now reaches 400,000 readers) says among other things that:

"The Shells, one of the hottest rock groups around, are one of three finalists vying for the MTV Best Breakout NYC Artist Award. The trio consists of singers Jessica Waltz, Melanie Klaja and Carrie Welling, who lives in Astoria. Along with a set of backup musicians, they frequently play shows in western Queens and elsewhere in the city.... [T]he MTV competition [is] set for Sept. 11 at the Fillmore New York at Irving Plaza in downtown Manhattan....
These sirens warrant it. They’re great performers and are about to release their first album, “Written Roads,” next month. Winning the best breakout artist award would be the icing on the cake, as it brings with it performance and licensing deals with MTV. The award will be presented during the network’s Video Music Awards, set for Sept. 13 at Radio City Music Hall."

This article also meets the guidance's standards, and is clearly non-trivial. These two reviews together are sufficient to satisfy the guidance's first criterion.

They are of course in addition to the article mentioned above by Mudwater, which appeared last month both in The Improper and The Examiner (by Keith Girard, Editor-in-Chief of TheImproper, who has been a journalist for more than 30 years and an Editor-in-Chief for more than 15 years at publications such as Billboard magazine. His syndicated column appears in The Washington Post, Boston Globe, and San Francisco Chronicle.). And this is without even giving any consideration to OurStage's article, or MTV's interview, or blogs such as this one, or this Dutch review.

2. Nominated for Major Music Award. A second criterion that this article meets is # 8, in that the band has been "nominated for a major music award."

The MTV Video Music Awards (VMAs) are clearly major music awards. And the band was nominated for the "MTV VMA Best Breakout New York City Artist Award".

(a) That the award is an MTV VMA, you can clearly see from "MTV's VMA Best Breakout NYC Artist Contest Official Rules". MTV's Rules repeatedly refer to the award as an MTV VMA (see, e.g., Sections 1 & 2).

(b) Also, the MTV VMA logo attaches to official releases regarding the award, clearly identifying it as the "MTV Video Music Awards '09 Best Breakout NYC Artist Award".

(c) And this MTV video clearly refers to it as an MTV VMA. The video not only starts off with the MTV VMA logo (indicating the MTV Video Music Awards ceremony, "hosted by Russell Brand"), but at the end it says "To see who wins the VMA for best breakout artist, tune in to the VMAs on Sept. 13 at 9 PM". The official VMA ceremony was of course hosted by Russell Brand on Sept. 13 at 9 PM.

(d) Official communications refer to the award as a VMA as well.

3. Won or Placed in a Major Music Competition. A third criterion that this article meets is # 9, in that the band has "won or placed in a major music competition."

The competion for the above award was a major one, in that:

(a) it was an MTV competition (MTV being a major name in the music field);

(b) the competition involved 190 bands;

(c) the competition between the final three nominee bands was held at a major venue (The Fillmore at Irving Plaza; a significant 1,100-person venue); and

(d) the panel judging the finalists consisted of an MTV person and two VMA performers (Fefe Dobson and a singer from Cobra Starship).

It should be noted that the winner and the other nominees are treated precisely the same by this criterion.

Album page. The WP:Album convention is that where the band article is not deleted, the band's album article likewise should not be deleted -- see discussion here

Deja vu. If editors experience a sense of deja vu here, it may be because this same nom previously nominated this article for deletion.

♦ This nom's effort to garner consensus support for deletion failed a mere 15 days prior to his renominating it for deletion above. Nine editors spoke up indicating that the article was notable. That notability did not lessen over the past 15 days, obviously, so I would submit it clearly it is still notable today.

♦ This nom then protested the decision to the closing admin. Without success.

♦ This nom then appealed the closing nom's determination. Without success.

♦ This nom then sought to delete the Category "The Shells albums". Without success.

♦ This nom continues his activities by now renominating this article for deletion a mere 15 days after his last nomination of the same article failed, and 5 days after the band's debut CD release.

Furthermore, this nom -- invited to the page in the first instance by an editor who was wikihounding me (as discussed at the first AfD) -- has for some reason consistently and aggressively gotten in the faces of other editors who don't share his view, even himself wikihounding me to other pages, as here -- where he received a sharp rebuke from the editor whose talk page he followed me to. He has also repeatedly exagerated, made overreaching characterizations, and even made untrue assertions (e.g., above as to the basis of the closure of the prior AfD). I've for the most part avoided detailing them, and instead -- in contrast to his approach -- have delineated the relevant points in the guidance, and provided sourced basis for this article meeting the guidance criteria. I question however whether this is productive activity on his part that is in the best interest of Wikipedia.

Coming back to the substance, in summary, this band clearly meets the WP:BAND criteria. Three times over. I'll leave friendly notices at a limited number of spots for editors who may have reason to have interest in following or joining this discussion. Thanks.

References

--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised to see Epeefleche harking back to the first AfD, given that his behaviour there got him blocked for a while for sockpupetry. To answer the point about 15 days. It is very clear that the first AfD was botched due to the confusion caused by the sockpuppetry and the misleading arguments put forward. It would have been perfectly legitimate to have started a second AfD immediately after the deletion review was turned down. In fact, that was what many people on the deletion review suggested. We were being very generous by waiting to see if the the album's release tipped the band over into notability. It hasn't. I was planning to give it until this upcoming weekend and then, if redoing the searches still turned up nothing convincing, nominate the two articles for AfD myself. --DanielRigal (talk) 11:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• That's not accurate. First, the sock complaint was brought on the unfounded suspicion that I had used as another account the "Holtzman" account; the Checkuser showed that account to be unrelated. The block was contested as unjustified, and quickly lifted with an apology because I had not engaged in sockpuppetry. I had used more than one account for maintenance purposes, however, which of course is acceptable, but to avoid even the appearance of impropriety I suggested that I would abandon my existing maintenance accounts.

Second, it is a completely unsupported fabrication for you to write "the first AfD was botched due to the confusion ...". The admin closed the AfD writing: "The result was no consensus. There is no consensus for deletion per WP:GNG or for retention per WP:BAND; neither argument came on top here." When the nom then aggressively protested the admin's decision (along with some misstatements/mischaracterizations), the admin wrote the nom: "I didn't see either argument on either side come up on top as I stated in the AFD closure (hence the "no consensus" close). I did read through it, and I don't think it would have made much a difference with the sock !vote in there or not, as the registered users on the "keep" side made their point clear." And then: "We saw two different thing."[1] What of course makes this an even starker result is that at the end of the day there was in fact no sockpuppetry.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I accept that you were not Holtzman but you were several other accounts. Rather than argue further I will simply suggest that anybody interested can have a look at your talk page where they can see the details and draw their own conclusions. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Again -- There was no sockpuppetry. Only permissible alternate maintenance accounts that had nothing to do with the AfD; hence the admin's lifting of the block, and apology. And it is a completely unsupported fabrication for you to write "the first AfD was botched due to the confusion".--Epeefleche (talk) 18:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

@Epeefleche: The Examiner article you link is not real coverage, it says nothing more than "they played at this thing" (and they're in the middle of a long list of other non-notable bands). The OurStage thing is a press release (not a RS, just fluff). The blog is also not an RS. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. —Epeefleche (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
• Keep per excellent analyes from Epeefleche, the sources already present are easilly sufficient to establish noteability. FeydHuxtable (talk) 10:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I suggest rereading them carefully and considering my points above. They are not as impressive as they first look. --DanielRigal (talk) 11:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Keep this article which is extensively referenced for WP:V, thus also WP:NOR. Fairly WP:NPOV as well. It clearly meets the other content policy guidelines, so I won't belabor them. Notability, though against my philosophy, is well-argued above. The (re)nominators need to give up the ghost. - Draeco (talk) 16:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• comment -- Speaking of deja vu... epeefleche, how many times do people have to tell you it's not necessary to copy and paste the entire Seventeen article into this page? Do you not realize how annoying it is? Do you think editors don't know how to click the link and read it themselves? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Trying to get back to the subject and move the discussion forwards, I would like to make some suggestions:

1. Can the people who are voting "keep" but who have not made it clear what they think should be done with the album article please clarify their stance on that?
2. Can we try to dig up a bit on the band's record label "WeThreeRecords"? I am not getting much on this. Are any other bands on it? They don't seem to have a website. (www.wethreeerecords.com seems to be a completely different thing with the same name.) Is this a vanity label set up for the band but with an established label (indie or major) standing behind it (the option that points towards notability), or is the album actually self-published (the option that points away from notability)?
3. Can we try to get an idea of how widely the album is available for sale? It is on CDBaby but I can't find it anywhere else. It is not in Amazon.com or Google Shopping. Is it exclusive to CDBaby and, if so, does that count as indie or self-published?

--DanielRigal (talk) 23:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

As for CDBaby: I have college buddies whose bands have multiple albums sold through CDBaby (and published by real record labels), and they are not notable. Selling your own album on CDBaby does not notability make. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)