Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shawn Hornbeck: Difference between revisions

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Shawn Hornbeck

Does not seem notable, maybe belongs in wikinews if it is a newspiece. Navou ^banter 16:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Was held captive for four years. If you want an AfD, try the other kid who was kept for two weeks or something like that. --Joffeloff 17:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Not my goal to AFD. I would rather be an inclusionist. :P But I digress, the article reads like a news piece, and if we include that, then we must include every other kidnapping/missing that resulted in "significant" results. There are too many cases. Side comment: If it appears that consensus will not be achieved, I have been known to withdraw nominations. Navou ^banter 17:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Keep'- Elizabeth Smart has an article, and she was also kidnapped and later found after years. If she gets an article, then presumably this kid gets one too. Maybe not in this form, but as an article about the Devlin fellow 74.133.144.195 17:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - "Does not seem notable"?!?!? How can a normal person think that this case is not notable. A child goes missing for over four years, in a situation where most kids are murdered, and he is miraculously found alive!?! What are you thinking?!?! And the statement that "it reads like a news piece" is no excuse for deletion. Revise it, add to it, fix it up, but KEEP THIS ARTICLE!! (I have no vested interest in this article or subject matter.) Ward3001 21:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I agree that because of the rare nature of the discovery following such a significant amount of time after the kidnapping, this article should be kept. The article could be greatly revised and expanded, but it should be included. Nicastpj 17:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - In agreement with others. Since everything I was thinking seems to be already said, I feel the article should stay. Fanficgurl 12:55 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep as per above. --Bill.matthews 18:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Keep - Seriously, how could this be considered for deletion? Might as well remove Elizabeth Smart, because 9 months pales in comparison to the 4 years this boy was with his abductor. Fighting for Justice 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nom. No indication of encyclopedic notability. Wikipedia is not a news report archive or a news service (that's Wikinews, a totally separate project) or a record of crime victims. News notability is not the same as encyclopedic notability. Encyclopedias are not news record archives. If the foundation created in the victim's name could be shown to have developed into a substantive, long-term organization, I would probably support a move to an article about that foundation. But of time of writing, the foundation website is down, and its unclear to me how significant this organization is. If there is evidence that this case had a broader substantive cultural or legal impact, I'll reconsider my !vote. Personally, I believe that the widespread conflation of Wikipedia's mission as an encyclopedia with its use as a news and magazine article archive is the most underestimated/underconsidered urgent problem facing the project (and its sister project, Wikinews). Bwithh 18:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in agreement with above. --User:Tommy23 18:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Enhance-Trust me, it will be very easy to enhance this story in the coming days. But this is a notable article and stary, anyone who can't see that is blind. Bing kidnapped for 4 plus years and being found alive is not the norm in kidnapping cases and notable in and of itself. I know this from persoanl experience sadly. Kerusso 19:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Request of participants I would request, "please disclose whether you are an article's primary author or if you otherwise have a vested interest in the article". Also would you disclose if you have a vested interest in the subject of the article, thanks, Navou ^banter 19:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a very notable case. Not many kids go missing, and turn up alive many years later.--Andrew Duffell 19:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I am in concurrence with Bwithh above. I am beginning to see the need for differentiating between Wikipedia and Wikinews. There's not much more to this boy (and I'm not downplaying the tragedy) than the fact that he was kidnapped and found years later. The brevity of the article demonstrates this. I do believe information like this should be available via the internet, and here, but the proper place is Wikinews until this story can demonstrate long-term and lasting notability. Recommend anyone concerned open a Wikinews article on the event as one does not exist now. - Rollo44 20:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just finished reading Elizabeth Smart kidnapping and found it a fascinating article. If this one can somehow grow in similar length and quality, it would be a good article. But that's a big IF. - Rollo44 20:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In regards crime victims, generally I look to see if either the case has created a change in law, had a substantial cultural influence, or there has been a significant book, film, play etc. about the case or the case has attracted sustained, substantial national media attention. The Elizabeth Smart case seems to pass these criteria. The Hornbeck case, I don't think so at the moment. Bwithh 21:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete/move to wikinews per Bwithh. --Rkitko 20:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, due to decisions made about the licensing of Wikinews content, a direct transwiki isn't possible (I think this is a major flaw in Wikinews design, though I know there are reasons why it was done in this way). Certainly someone can open a new article in Wikinews as Rollo44 suggests. Bwithh 20:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge to Michael J. Devlin. I am fine with either option but this shouldn't be deleted. WP:BIO's last bullet point is Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events, such as by being assassinated. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not so clearcut as you think. The line you quote from WP:BIO is specifically from a section which is talking about the likelihood of finding reliable sources on a subject, and is not directly addressing a subject's notability. WP:BIO is a guideline which does suggest any subject receiving multiple independent media coverage may be considered worthy of an article. However it is not a policy. Policy WP:NOT suggests that articles on news events should be of "historical significance" - a position which is backed up by Wikipedia:How_the_Current_events_page_works#Wikipedia_is_not_a_news_service: "Wikipedia is not a news service. That's the job of Wikinews. We shouldn't be in the business of writing articles about breaking news stories, unless indeed we can be very confident, as in the case of the September 11 attacks, that in the future there will be a significant call for an encyclopedia article on that topic." Bwithh 21:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. Bwithh, you state exactly why this article should stay: "In the future there will be a significant call for an encyclopedia article on the topic." Elizabeth Smart deserves her own article because she made the news for a really long time and because her case was notable. Ownby and Hornbeck show no signs of leaving the front of CNN's website any time soon, especially because details (such as what happened during the intervening years) may not be known for days - or months. As soon as the kidnapper's trial gets underway, all three articles will become much larger and more encyclopedic. Right now, yes, it reads like a news story, but eventually this article will be at least as useful as the one on the Lindbergh baby. And Navou, contrary to what you've said above, very few kidnapping cases achieve "significant results" like the finding of the child, and that slim likelihood decreases with time. Thor Rudebeck 01:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep do not merge Are you people nuts? This story is bigger than Natalee Holloway and Elizabeth Smart combined-both of whom have their own page.Tommypowell 21:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be nice if some of the !keep voters would come up with some sources and references to back up their exclamations and claims Bwithh 21:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What type of references are you expecting Bwithh? The rescue itself is notable. Missing children, abducted by strangers, often do not come home. They did. Fighting for Justice 21:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ILIKEIT may be applicable to some arguements here. Navou ^banter 21:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As would WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Ward3001 22:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Satisfies notability rules. -- Stbalbach 21:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Reason: precedent, hundreds or pages like this exist in wikpedia. --DuKot 23:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to let you know, the Pokemon defense doesn't work on WP. TJ Spyke 01:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Non-notable individual having his 15 minutes of fame. Wikipedia is not Wikinews.No basis for thinking that a year from now anyone will remember his name. Edison 00:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Missing at 11 years old for 4 years and then found? Sounds notable enough to me. Hardly a case of "15 minutes of fame". Korinkami 00:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. Notability is semi-assured, As mentioned above we have an Elizabeth Smart article and a Johnny Gosch article. I know, having one is not a reason to have others, but in this case, it seems minimally encyclopedic. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep <personal attack removed - User:Zoe|(talk) 01:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)>. If an internationally covered event that's going to be discussed for years isn't notable, then half of Wikipedia needs to be deleted. Umlautbob 00:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can see into the future? How do you know what will be talked about in years?

Strong Delete per Bwithh. IF he ends up getting books written about him and/or TV movies, then maybe. Otherwise he is just another missing kid that was found (even if it was after 4 years), this is not Wikinews. TJ Spyke 01:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge, per precedent at Elizabeth Smart and other such articles. Italiavivi 01:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Smart became notable because she was on the news almost every day for months, and had several books and TV movies about her made. This kid wasn't even mentioned on the news until he was found, and there is no way of knowing if anything else will happen. TJ Spyke 01:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep--the subject should not be forgotten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.206.165.20 (talk • contribs)

I have refactored the above comment. Navou ^banter 02:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Wikipedia is not a memorial, and people get kidnapped/killed every day. TJ Spyke 01:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Natascha Kampusch; rename as per Elizabeth Smart kidnapping if necessary, but I don't favour one over the other at the moment. Radagast 02:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. He has only recently become a figure in the public's eye. As the days go on, his story and the circumstances of his abduction might be revealed in the news, but for now very little is known about what happened to him, other than that he was abducted and rescued four years later. If this does not happen, Merge with Michael J. Devlin. Maikeru 02:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - it's obviously wikinews. Of course, I fully recognize many articles exist about people who are notable only because their victimization made a temporary national splash. Anybody remember who James Jordan was? That article's AfD ended with a keep, but it really isn't contributing much to this encyclopedia. Unless Wikipedia wants to be an all-inclusive (see: WP:NOT) information source, I suspect that we'll eventually want to exclude main stream media articles as evidence of notability. If something is truly notable, then it will eventually become the subject of more scholarly work. In another case, I've had a Speedy Delete tag removed from an article by someone who thinks a video game listed as one of the "15 worst" in a web commentary is sufficient to demonstrate notability. The trend here these days, appears to be toward admitting YouTube, MySpace, and personal blogs as evidence of notability. In the case at hand, I'd rather wait for an academician to write an article or a book on the psychological effects of long-term kidnapping on its survivors (or some such) before Wikipedia sees an article on this subject. Posting one now appears gratuitous at best and exploitation at worst. Rklawton 03:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Wikipedia is still not Wikinews. GassyGuy 05:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - If Elizabeth Smart gets an article, I think that this is as notable. --Btmiller 05:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment see: WP:POKEMON for why this argument fails. Rklawton 05:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and enhance - Although this article reads like a news piece, the subject is notable and in the media. People are already going crazy on the kidnapper's talk page about the mere possibility of a merge. Bronzey 06:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from WP:INN I like this, perhaps it is applicable here for the "But so and so article exists"... "Inclusion is not an indicator of validity, notability, or quality due to the fact that any individual may edit a page." Navou ^banter 06:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep WP:BIO: nontrivial coverage in multiple independent sources. This guy has ongoing coverage in thousands of places in international media. How is this anything but notable? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 07:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Elizabeth Smart has an article because she made international headlines..for about..a year. She also had a tv movie, and a bunch of other stuff related to her. That's why she gets an article. Shawn Hornbeck and Ben Ornby and Michael J. Devlin should all probably be merged into an article about the kidnapping, if anything. (If Shawn's get deleted, Ben's should probably go as well. At least Shawn's article has sources, and all that wikijazz). I'm not going to properly vote keep, or delete, but I strongly oppose the comparison to Elizabeth Smart, and Natalie Holloway. There's no way these guys are anyway more notable, no offense. I think the story is sad and all, and glad they're okay, but still. Just because you feel bad for them, and are interested in the story, and because they made national (not international like E.Smart's and N.Holloway's) headlines for a week doesn't make them that notable. --theblueflamingo^Speak 09:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment 1. They have made international news. Google news turns up hits from the UK, at least. 2. Natalie Holloway and Elizabeth Smart are famous, but they're not the minimum for an article; they're far above it. It doesn't even take fame to be article-worthy. Notability is a very low bar. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This is a person who could become a crucial witness during the current investigation of the kidnapping suspect. To claim that Elizabeth Smart deserves an article and that Mr Hornbeck does not seems to be an example of Missing White Woman Syndrome in action, especially in how the original nomination is stated. MDonfield 10:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 82: / Line 82: @@
 *'''Comment''' - Elizabeth Smart has an article because she made international headlines..for about..a year. She also had a tv movie, and a bunch of other stuff related to her. That's why she gets an article. Shawn Hornbeck and [[Ben Ornby]] and [[Michael J. Devlin]] should all probably be merged into an article about the kidnapping, if anything. (If Shawn's get deleted, Ben's should probably go as well. At least Shawn's article has sources, and all that wikijazz). I'm not going to properly vote keep, or delete, but I strongly oppose the comparison to Elizabeth Smart, and Natalie Holloway. There's no way these guys are anyway more notable, no offense. I think the story is sad and all, and glad they're okay, but still. Just because you feel bad for them, and are interested in the story, and because they made national (not international like E.Smart's and N.Holloway's) headlines for a week doesn't make them that notable. --<font face="Verdana">[[User:TheBlueFlamingo|<font color="SteelBlue">theblueflamingo</font>]]</font><sup>[[User_Talk:TheBlueFlamingo|Speak]]</sup> 09:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 **'''Comment''' 1. They have made international news.  Google news turns up hits from the UK, at least.  2. Natalie Holloway and Elizabeth Smart are famous, but they're not the minimum for an article; they're far above it.  It doesn't even take fame to be article-worthy. Notability is a very low bar. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 09:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' This is a person who could become a crucial witness during the current investigation of the kidnapping suspect.  To claim that Elizabeth Smart deserves an article and that Mr Hornbeck does not seems to be an example of [[Missing White Woman Syndrome]] in action, especially in how the original nomination is stated. [[User:MDonfield|MDonfield]] 10:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)