Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 15

May 15

Template:Early vehicles pwr

• Template:Early vehicles pwr (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Appears to have been already added to Power-to-weight ratio Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 14:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Keep: am preparing for use in [[Power-to-weight-ratio}]] along with several other, similar templates. Lfstevens (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Delete as unused. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:He or she

• Template:He or she (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:He/she (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:They (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Propose merging Template:He or she and Template:He/she with Template:They.
Recommending merge since the use of "he or she" solely enforces a false gender binary, and {{they}} already exists: as such, fold this template into {{they}}. I know that the syntax for verbs when used with "they" is different, and as such correcting those as the templates are merged will do. Additionally, if this is successful I am considering merging other similar "gender-binary-enforcing" templates, such as {{him or her}}. Casspedia (talk) 10:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Replace with {{They}} and delete. There doesn't seem to be anything needed to merge. This could just be redirected, however, the "He or she" name itself is problematic and even as a redirect it shouldn't exist. Note that {{He/she}} should also be added to this nomination. --Gonnym (talk) 10:14, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Keep. Whatever our personal preferences, the use of "he" and "she" is still perfectly acceptable English in the outside world and applies to the vast majority of English speaking people. Wikipedia should reflect that world and not become a place to push a particular political or personal viewpoint. Clearly where the sources follow an individual's publicly stated-preference for some other term, Wikipedia can reflect that. Bermicourt:( (talk) 12:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Adding this: templates typically differ from real-world use, and the term "he or she" can be very insulting to someone who deliberately did not set their gender because they aren't male or female. This is especially notable if/when this template is transcended into other templates. Casspedia (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

  But Wikipedia isn't generally concerned about who it insults. It doesn't set itself up as judge and jury over that sort of thing, it merely follows WP:RELIABLESOURCES. I'm assuming that the latter would usually respect what people say they are unless it is obviously nonsense. But what we don't want to do is call the majority by pronouns they wouldn't accept either.

  There's actually a related problem which is nothing to do with personal preferences and only tangential to this nomination: converting the use of "he" or "she" to "they" in all circumstances often results in utter confusion about who we are talking about. In a gender-free world, "Fred fed the ball into the scrum; then they collapsed" leaves the reader in confusion about whether the entire scrum collapsed or just Fred. Our language is not yet geared up to dealing with this and poaching plural pronouns for singular objects just creates another, even more confusing problem. Which is why we should proceed with caution. Bermicourt (talk) 13:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

  The issue of gender-neutral language is irrelevant to this discussion. All three templates allow the same functionality. Guettarda (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Merge (or just redirect). The templates appear to do the same thing, and "they" is the simplest and most inclusive formulation. Guettarda (talk) 15:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Keep It is not the duty of TfD to try to force users to use singular they if they do not want to. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @Pppery: did you actually check the templates or just go off their names? "He" and "She" aren't changed; the only difference is between having for an unset gender "he or she" or "they". "he or she" is just bad grammar. --Gonnym (talk) 16:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure what exactly makes that bad grammar, and still feel that this TfD is inappropriately trying to insert an opinion into templates, whereas templates in general should be neutral and not have opinions. It should be up to each editor to decide whether to use "he or she" or "they"; there should not be forced standardization. (And yes, I did look at what these templates do and still feel they should be kept.). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 16:25, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Alt merge proposal - would merging all three into Template:Gender be a solution? All you have to do there is type in {{gender|(he, she, or they)}} and it will appear for you. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
• Alt merge proposal per Knowledgekid87, just bundle it all into one template. Regards, 31.41.45.190 (talk) 17:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:Random article

• Template:Random article (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:Random page in category (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Propose merging Template:Random article with Template:Random page in category.
{{Random article}} is nearly identical to {{Random page in category}}. {{Random article}}, however, uses a tool that displays an error when opened and only has 6 total transclusions. I propose we merge {{Random article}} into the far popular {{Random page in category}} to avoid using a non-functional toolforge link. TGHL ↗ 22:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I created the article when I was translating and importing portals from German Wikipedia. It's a transalation of de:Vorlage:Zufälliger Artikel. The idea was to generate random articles from a category for the portal to keep it 'fresh', so it's a portal tool if you like. I have no problem merging this provided the new template can generate the same effect. Bermicourt (talk) 08:21, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 04:03, 15 May 2021 (UTC)