Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zakarid Armenia

Zakarid Armenia

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Zakarid Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by biased modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now. A)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings

I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so:

1)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely.

2)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it.

3)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin. SonofJacob (talk) 06:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Discussion page was created without the {{afd2}} template and never transcluded to a daily log. Fixed now—I have not yet formed an opinion of my own at this time. --Finngall ^talk 06:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 15:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

• Speedy keep: I'm pretty certain this is a bad-faith nomination based on nationalistic POV pushing (in this case Georgian; to quote the medievalist Joseph Strayer: "The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy."). The nomination rationale the nominator provided is borderline unhinged; besides the fact, this seems to be a content dispute, so it should be resolved either at the article's talk page or the dispute resolution noticeboard. Curbon7 (talk) 15:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Keep: This article doesn’t need to be deleted. I do agree, however, that it can be improved, renamed, moved, merged, or reworked. I can tell this is a bad-faith nomination simply based on the fact that the source that was “not even possible to find” was easily found by me with a simple Google search here: [1] (see preview of page 39), and that it, in fact, does say that they are Armenians (or rather, Armenianized'’). — [ kentronhayastan ]

No. In fact, the whole article of "Zakarid Armenia" is a bad-faith nationalistic article which serves degrading the Georgian kind in eyes of others. Everything is fake and I am not even able to do anything, starting from editing the article and til this moment. I will try to debunk EVERY SINGLE sentence of this article.

>Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings.[3][4]<

1) Zakarids were APPOINTED RULERS by the Bagrationis, they have never been a "vassal" rulers. This is a strategy every country uses after expanding their kingdom, APPOINT a ruler. And in medieval descriptions many things are sometimes unclear, and the fact that SOMETIMES the Zakarids acted independently is NORMAL because that is exactly why they were appointed by Bagrationis.

>In 1236, they became vassals to the Mongol Empire.[5] Their descendants continued to hold Ani until the 1330s, when they lost it to a succession of Turkish dynasties, including the Kara Koyunlu, who made Ani their capital.<

1)There is no such things as them becoming "vassals" to the Mongol Empire, because, the Mongols literally conquered half of Georgia including the Armenian lands that were subject to the Georgian kingdom. Guess what the Mongols called it? - VILAYET OF GEORGIA! Source: C.P.Atwood- Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire, p.197 within the Mongol Empire, the Armenian lands were ruled indirectly, through the GEORGIAN monarch.

>Despite some complications in the reign of George III, the successes continued in the reign of the Queen Tamar.[9] This was chiefly due to the Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane.[11][12]<

1)When I see them being labeled as "Armenian" but in reality, the source which is able to CONFIRM them being Armenian says that they are of KURDISH origin who adopted Christianity and changed their names to the Georgian version of what they previously had.

2)And I am pretty sure that such a behavior is punishable according to the laws of Wikipedia where the wiki page says opposite of the cited source.

3)According to the medieval ARMENIAN historians such as Kirakos Gandzaketsi, and Vardan Areveltsi, the Mkhargrdzelids were also Kurdish. Which also accepted by Minorsky Vladimir. (source:Minorsky Vladimir. Studies in Caucasian History. — London: Taylor's Foreign Press, 1953.)

Speaking of Nationalist agenda, not only the whole article is fake, additionally, the map of the so called "Zakarid Armenia" which is presented in the following Wiki page, claims the areas of Javakheti and Kvemo Kartli on the map. Even the parts around Kars and Tao-Klarjeti which actually got INDEPENDENCE from Georgia by the help of Mongol and later on throughout history emerged as an independent GEORGIAN entity called Samtskhe-Saatabago. Where is the source of them controlling the following lands? also, quick addition, the royal families ALWAYS used to switch places in ruling the various parts of the lands in Armenia. Such as Orbelis, Thorelis and the Jaqelis. Though under Georgia, the regions always used to switch it's place from several co-ruling dynasties to others. SonofJacob (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You might want to double-check the sources. One of the two sources says that they’re “[…] Armenianized Kurdish family of Zakharids, […]” (The Making of the Georgian Nation, Suny, 1994, pp.39). In other words, by the time relevant to this article (or by the time those two individuals earned their positions), they already considered themselves to be Armenian. Many dynasties originate in foreign lands or are of foreign ethnicities (the Bagrationis themselves are an example of this). The distant origin or background of the dynasty is irrelevant in this case. — [ kentronhayastan ] 01:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)