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Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation

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The article appears to be an attempt (possibly unintended) to glorify the organization (Ukrainian Insurgent Army or UPA) partly accountable for the Holocaust and fully responsible for the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia. One of the leaders (same for the others Roman Shukhevych or Dmytro Klyachkivsky) Stepan Bandera was a Nazi collaborator. This is extremely disturbing. Please refer to this discussions for more --> [1], [2] GizzyCatBella🍁 03:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Organizations, Poland, Russia, and Ukraine. GizzyCatBella🍁 03:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep well written and sourced. Deletion is not the way to deal with neutral point of view concerns....that I am not seeing in this case.Robert Gellately, ed. (16 February 2018). The Oxford Illustrated History of the Third Reich. Oxford University Press. pp. 230–. ISBN 978-0-19-104401-4. OCLC 1023801367.Moxy-

03:18, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some could be merged to Ukrainian Insurgent Army article. Also please note -->[3] - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any sources that contradict the article? Moxy-

03:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a minute Moxy .. are you saying that WP:NPOV issues are not present in the article? - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:25, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Few things could be reword it...but it follows the sources there. Again are there other sources that contradictory sources there? Moxy-

03:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay 🙂 .. so point to me please which source was used for this for example --> All conscious Ukrainian patriots were physically killed by Polish militants, killing their wives and children, and the rest of the Ukrainian population was required to declare loyalty and support for the Polish insurgent movement. ... or ... does this source [4] (kokolus.com) is a source that is a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) and meets the Arbitration Committee ruling [5] ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, Moxy by the way .. my leaf is nicer. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:52, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: the author gives the source for that. I'll translate the source into English for you--> "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army: Historical Essays / National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine; Institute of History of Ukraine / SV Kulchytsky (ed.)." - К .: Наук. Historical essays, 2005. - p. 274. BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: if you want sources in addition to the one the author already gives, here are two more: "Theory and Practice. Historical representation of the wartime accounts of the activities of OUN-UPA (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists-Ukrainian Insurgent Army). East European Jewish Affairs. Vol. 36. No.2. December 2006. pp. 163–179." and this "The Difficulties of Polish-Ukrainian Historical Reconciliation," Royal Institute of International Affairs, Kataryna Wolczuk, London, 2002 BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please quote from the source you presented above part that support this: - All conscious Ukrainian patriots were physically killed by Polish militants, killing their wives and children, and the rest of the Ukrainian population was required to declare loyalty and support for the Polish insurgent movement. GizzyCatBella🍁 04:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: the author of the article gave you the source, so I translated it for you. Then I gave you an additional source. You can read them at your convenience. Let's get back to your original allegation. Your originally asked for the entire article to be deleted because you allege the article "glorifies" the UPA; yet when I ask you to please site specific passages you think does glorifies UPA, you can't do it. Or at least you haven't yet. I feel that if you're going to request an entire article be deleted; then at the very least you should be able to site passages to support allegations. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:18, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you can’t provide the quote, you want me to look for it but you insist that :

All conscious Ukrainian patriots were physically killed by Polish militants, killing their wives and children, and the rest of the Ukrainian population was required to declare loyalty and support for the Polish insurgent movement.

is supported by Historical Essays / National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine; Institute of History of Ukraine / SV Kulchytsky (ed.)." - К .: Наук. Historical essays, 2005. - on page 274 and East European Jewish Affairs. Vol. 36. No.2. December 2006. pp. 163 –179." and "The Difficulties of Polish-Ukrainian Historical Reconciliation," Royal Institute of International Affairs, Kataryna Wolczuk, London, 2002 Confirm please - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: the author, @Moxy: and I all gave you sources so you can read them. The whole idea of giving people (you) sources is so people (you) read them. Now you have them, read them. Read & learning is fun. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While I share your concern about the article's tone regarding the UPA, I would like to say that I think it's beneficial to have an article on the Ukrainian Insurgency like we do with the Guerrilla war in the Baltic states for example. I would like to keep the article if we can get rid of the nationalist bias. However if that isn't feasible I think we should merge the quality content into the UPA's/relevant articles. But reading the article, most of the problem seems to be with tone and not with the information itself. I think it can be fine with tweaks. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 03:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then the article needs a lot of work to meet WP:NPOV if to be kept. Must include implementation of sources that actually fulfill the Arbitration Committee mandate from May last year. The white-washing of Ukrainian Insurgent Army crimes and Bandera collaboration with the Nazis by delivering them to our readers as national “heroes” of Ukraine is unacceptable. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article is very well sourced, is written in a neutral tone, and uses wiki voice. I've read the article several times and I feel it does not "glorify" the UPA or any other group that participated in the genocide of the Holocaust. So I ask that @GizzyCatBella: please tell specifically what part he/she thinks does glorify UPA. Thank you BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Entire article - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:16, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella:, if you're going to allege that the article "glorifies" the UPA or any other group that participated in genocide as your reason to have it deleted; then please site specific passages to support your allegation. Thank you BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:23, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, how about we start from the very end of the article BetsyRMadison. Here 🙂:

...Bandera (its about Stepan Bandera) remained an integral nationalist for the rest of his life.

Do you see anything wrong with this unsourced statement? Here is the link that explains what Integral nationalism is. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:45, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: Stephen Bandera did hold to the principles of "integral nationalism" until he was murdered by Russia's KGB. So no, I do not see anything wrong with that. Do you need me to give you more sources than what the author of the article already gave you to confirm that for you? BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes please, I would like to see a reliable source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) that Stepan Bandera was a non-racist nationalist. Please do. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:55, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: For the record, first off: Ukrainian and other European publishers are reputable, even though you may have never heard of them. And it's not unusual for Ukraine, and other European countries, to have written more about their own country's history than what you would find in North American books and schools. Secondly, what Bandera described as "integral nationalism" isn't about 'non-racist nationalism' so I have no idea where you got that from? Thirdly, here are more sources than what the author of the article provide that acknowledge Bandera held to the principles of "integral nationalism" until he was murdered by Russia's KGB: "Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist" by Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe: ‎ Ibidem Press (October 1, 2014). and this "Heroes and Villains"

By David R. Marples; Central European University Press (August 10, 2007). Let me know if you want more sources. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Russia and Eurasia 2019-2020. Rowman & Littlefield. 11 October 2019. pp. 185–. ISBN 978-1-4758-5248-6. Moxy- 05:08, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please quote from the sources you presented above part that supports:

Stepan Bandera remained an integral nationalist for the rest of his life. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:11, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: The author gave you once source, I gave you two sources, and @Moxy: gave you one source. That's a total of 4 source for you to read at your convenience. And while you're reading all 4 sources, remember learning and reading is fun! BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:22, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)"His life's goal was to create an independent Ukraine from the Ukrainian parts of eastern Poland and Soviet Ukraine. He was willing to collaborate with whoever would help him achieve that end." Moxy- 05:24, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does above support: Stepan Bandera remained an integral nationalist for the rest of his life ? 🙂 - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:35, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: It's becoming evident that you don't know what "Ukrainian integral nationalism" is. If you read the sources the author gave you, I gave you, & Moxy gave you; you'll learn what it is. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:57, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t ? 🙂 - Anyway don’t answer, this is off topic already - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:02, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete / merge; merge whatever is salvageable into Ukrainian Insurgent Army, but delete rather than leaving a redirect, since this isn't a useful title. This is a textbook WP:POVFORK, being a straight duplicate of the history of the organization in that article, but written from a premise that essentially reflects the organization's own view of events; no neutral article could reasonably be written under this title. Renaming / rewriting it into a general article on Ukrainian resistance to the Soviet Union is unreasonable and not possible when everything in it is about the UPA, so the only thing to do is to merge and delete. Even framing it as a war is WP:POV in this context, since that is not how it is treated in most high-quality sources. Also, I should add that I strenuously disagree with the argument that this article is well-sourced - it cites the same few sources over and over again, almost all of them Ukrainian; there is nothing wrong with citing a bunch of sources from close to the fact, but for the article's sources to one-sided to the point of near exclusion of any other perspective is giving WP:UNDUE weight to one view and reinforces the fact that this is a POVFORK of Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Some people above suggest that it could be fixed, but we already have a balanced, well-written, well-sourced article on the UPA. --Aquillion (talk) 04:42, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Ukrainian resistance to the Soviet Union might be a more fitting title if the article was thoroughly re-written to meet WP:NPOV - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:05, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: Since 1917, there has been "Ukrainian resistance against the Soviet Union." Therefore, because the article is about UPA from 1944-1956, your suggested title would not be more fitting. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:11, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1944-1956 the Soviet Union existed in those years and was exceptionally well and dandy. I don’t understand .. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:17, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: You keep avoiding instead of answering my question. Now please answer: Why do you say the Russian Republic "was exceptionally well and dandy" between 1944-1956 when they brutally occupied east Berlin and much of eastern Europe. Please answer. Thanks. BetsyRMadison (talk) 06:37, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I said the Soviet Union was well and dandy in 1944-1956. (This is off topic, see collapsed section below) Now please stop asking off topic questions, you can use my talk page for that if you want. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:43, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: It's your topic for your suggested new title, so it can't be off-topic. Please tell me why you say the "Soviet Union was exceptionally well and dandy in 1944-1956" when they brutally occupied east Berlin and much of eastern Europe. Please answer. I'd really like to know why you think that. Thank you. BetsyRMadison (talk) 06:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, this is becoming disruptive. Full stop now. Use my talk page please for off topic exchanges - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:53, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

off topic

Yes, in 1944-1956 the Russian ~~Empire~~ Republic existed. Between 1944-1956 the authoritarian Russian Republic brutally occupied East Berlin, Ukraine, Hungary, etc., So I don't know where you get the idea that the Russian ~~empire~~ Republic "was exceptionally well and dandy" between 1944-1956. Seriously, where'd you get that idea? BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(?) 1944 -1956 Russian Empire existed? Sorry, what on earth.... anyway ... I think I’ll pause here... - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:33, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: You did not answer my question, tell me why you think Russian Republic "was exceptionally well and dandy" between 1944-1956 when they brutally occupied east Berlin and parts of eastern Europe? Oh, sorry for writing "Russian empire" instead of "Russian Republic." They're both very brutal & genocidal regimes so I apologize for causing you confusion on that.
Now please answer my question. Thank you. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:42, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Republic between 1944-1956 now...eh? Sorry BetsyRMadison but I’m choosing to pause this exchange for obvious (to me) reasons. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: Yes, the Russian Republic. Read & learn about it here [6]The longer version is: Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. Now please answer my question: Why do you say Russian Republic "was exceptionally well and dandy" between 1944-1956 when they brutally occupied east Berlin and parts of eastern Europe? You said it, so please explain why you think that. Thanks. BetsyRMadison (talk) 06:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@BetsyRMadison - I might get back to you later. Please don’t get discouraged by those errors, we all learn all the time. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: Thank you, because I do look forward to reading your answer on why you feel that between 1944-1956 the authoritarian Russian Republic, who brutally occupied East Berlin, Ukraine, Hungary, etc., "was exceptionally well and dandy." And I also look forward to you citing the specific passages of the article you allege glorifies UPA. BetsyRMadison (talk) 06:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So now it was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic that occupied East Berlin etc.., not the entire Soviet Union? Just that one particular Soviet Republic? BetsyRMadison stop, please... - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Between 1944-1956, Russia was not an independent state, it was part of the Soviet Union along with Ukraine and many other Soviet Socialist Republics. Joseph Stalin, who was Georgian and not Russian, was the leader of the Soviet Union from 1924 to 1953 and Nikita Khrushchev, who was Russian lead the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964. If we were to take the logic that the Soviet Union was Russia by another name, then we would have to take the logic that the United Kingdom was England by another name and I'm not sure how the Scots, Welch, and Northern Irish would view been known as English rather than British, but I bet they wouldn't like it. Just Like I am pretty sure the Armenians, Byelorussians, Estonians, Georgians, Kazakhs, Kirghiz, Latvians, Lithuanians, Moldavians, Tajiks, Turkmen, Ukrainians, and Uzbeks would not be keen to be known as Russian. Lets do our research before publishing a comment and lets leave the emotion of current events from ruling our heads. Kind regards 79.155.36.178 (talk) 12:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, hopeless POV issues.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:58, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. I agree that there are POV issues, but the topic seems potentially notable (reliable academic source that should be used in the article: Examining the authoritarian model of counter-insurgency: The Soviet campaign against the Ukrainian insurgent army. I see there been attempts to NPOV the article, and they are ongoing. I am not sure this article is beyond saving and hence, I am not convinced WP:TNT applies. I do support tagging the article with {{NPOV}} and making it neutral, of course. The name is clunly and can be changed, I see there is a RM on article's talk page alraedy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:25, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete & merge There is a lot of emotion flying around here and people need to keep calm heads. Remember what the purpose of this project is. According to Jimmy Whales Wikipedia is "an effort to create and distribute a free encyclopedia of the highest possible quality to every single person on the planet in their own language".[[7]] This article falls way short and is mired in multiple failures as specified by many editors above. The article should be deleted, with what can be saved, merged into other associated articles.79.155.36.178 (talk) 11:45, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 59: / Line 59: @@
 ::::::::<small>@[[User:BetsyRMadison|BetsyRMadison]] - I might get back to you later. Please don’t get discouraged by those errors, we all learn all the time.</small> - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 05:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 :::::::::{{ping|GizzyCatBella}} Thank you, because I do look forward to reading your answer on why you feel that between 1944-1956 the authoritarian Russian Republic, who brutally occupied East Berlin, Ukraine, Hungary, etc., "was exceptionally well and dandy." And I also look forward to you citing the specific passages of the article you allege glorifies UPA. [[User:BetsyRMadison|BetsyRMadison]] ([[User talk:BetsyRMadison|talk]]) 06:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 ::::::::::So now it was the [[Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic]] that occupied [[East Berlin]] etc.., not the entire [[Soviet Union]]? Just that one particular Soviet Republic? [[User:BetsyRMadison|BetsyRMadison]] stop, please...  - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 06:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
+ {{outdent}} Between 1944-1956, Russia was not an independent state, it was part of the [[Soviet Union]] along with Ukraine and many other [[Republics of the Soviet Union|Soviet Socialist Republics]]. [[Joseph Stalin]], who was Georgian and not Russian, was the leader of the Soviet Union from 1924 to 1953 and [[Nikita Khrushchev]], who was Russian lead the Soviet Union from 1953 to 1964. If we were to take the logic that the Soviet Union was Russia by another name, then we would have to take the logic that the United Kingdom was England by another name and I'm not sure how the Scots, Welch, and Northern Irish would view been known as English rather than British, but I bet they wouldn't like it. Just Like I am pretty sure the Armenians, Byelorussians, Estonians, Georgians, Kazakhs, Kirghiz, Latvians, Lithuanians, Moldavians, Tajiks, Turkmen, Ukrainians, and Uzbeks would not be keen to be known as Russian. Lets do our research before publishing a comment and lets leave the emotion of current events from ruling our heads. Kind regards  [[Special:Contributions/79.155.36.178|79.155.36.178]] ([[User talk:79.155.36.178|talk]]) 12:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 {{collapse bottom}}
 * '''Delete''', hopeless POV issues.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 08:58, 27 April 2022 (UTC)