Talk:Order of Nine Angles

Nick Land Connection

The Nick Land connection is spurious at best- the linked source is certainly not 'promotion' and there is no serious, sustained philosophical influence either from o9a to Land or vice versa. Seems odd to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.214.62.168 (talk) 03:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Seems verifiable to me. Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 13:15, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

References

allies with Atomwaffen fails verification

i added a failed verification tag to both sources which assert in the infobox that this group is allies with the US group Atomwaffen because each asserts that o9a has influenced atomwaffen but not that the two groups are allies. the only talkpage mention of this is in archive 2 of this talkpage so i presume this hasn't been brought up here before. in any event the two sources are now tagged and if nothing else comes to light soon, i will remove atomwaffen as "allies" with o9a. eventually. .usarnamechoice (talk) 01:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• i also tagged some other refs used to associate the two groups as failed verification. there was nothing i could do with the foreign language sites (except the Russian site) so i left them alone. i will look again in two weeks or so and if no source is forthcoming, i will include that this group "is an influence on" atomwaffen, not vice versa nor are they allies. .usarnamechoice (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

  it appears @DragonRouge: has seen fit to remove the FV tags with the edit summary "inappropriate tagging", and without any discussion here. i would like to invite the user to come and explain why these refs describe these groups as "allies" with atomwaffen. statements like "influenced by" and "drawing from the beliefs of" does not make the groups allies. when i tagged these refs, i was very careful (given the controversial nature of this article) not to 'inappropriately' tag the refs so i am puzzled and hopefully DragonRouge can explain further here. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:02, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Star Game

I have been making a draft for an article on the Star game here Draft:Star Game can we have this be separate? Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 23:50, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

FBI bankrolled O9A because the leader was an informant.

I just… can’t even. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 01:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Noctulius Waffen

I can smash many rumors on this site. But nineangles.net was mine its down now. Noctuliuswaffen9.wordpress.com is my website there's a split of sorts in o9a Thormynd on one side, Nameless Therein on another and Noctulius Waffen as the new Dreccian way and such. I do know Myatt and others on some level. I was Tempel ov Blood for 10 years and knew Joshua Sutter for that long. I go out of my way here for information purposes and research. I'd be willing to give a phone interview as well and offer proof. terrencerhodes@proton.me is my email. I wish to go by pseudonyms but I am the famous Dark Gnosis no one else is. 142.162.227.2 (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Without reliable sources, we can't use any of this. Personal anecdotes are not sources we can use in Wikipedia articles. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:00, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Nick Land Connection

I found, about a year ago, a forum on which Nick land and reza negarestani shared fascist conspiracy theories and o9a propaganda. Specifically, Nick “highly recommended” Myatt’s work, or the catechism of the o9a in general. I’ve spent a few hours searching for this data and am worried it may have been scrubbed from the internet. Can anyone help me? 83.151.136.26 (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Unless a secondary source covered those forum posts, we couldn't really use it here anyway. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:39, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Federal bankrolling of Tempel ov Blood

Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere that the FBI funded Tempel ov Blood and that Joshua Caleb Sutter was an informant/asset? It had been rumored for over a decade, was confirmed a year ago with a filing in the court case of Kaleb Cole and there are now reliable sources discussing it, some of which are below. One of the most important parts of the whole O9A story and I don't think it's possible to get a non-misleading picture from an article that neglects to mention it. Fundamentally changes how at least ToB, if not the whole O9A, has to be viewed and in a different media environment it would probably be one of the biggest FBI scandals in a decade or more, considering that the literature ToB published was not just neo-Nazi but extremely and graphically pro-pedophilia, rape, cannibalism etc. https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/the-satanist-neo-nazi-plot-to-murder-u-s-soldiers-1352629/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/26/fbi-funded-neo-nazi-book-publisher-court-docs-reveal/ https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2022/06/09/fbi-informant-white-supremacist-atomwaffen/7237901001/ ThoroldWest (talk) 13:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

@ThoroldWest: All the O9A-FBI and Myatt's Gladio connection allegations are such a huge can of worms I've steered clear of them. If you have a smart way to laying it all down, go right ahead. According to Eric Striker the US army has attempted to recruit veteran neo-Nazis and has promised cleartheir rap sheet in exchange for service. The US intelligence service/neo-Nazi connections go so deep it makes one's head spin, and its hard to tell which is just neo-Nazis talking crap and fedjacketing one another, and which is legitimate.RKT7789 (talk) 13:49, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

@RKT7789:A can of worms is putting it mildly, it immediately takes you into some extremely strange and dark territory if you think through the implications. I was trying to keep my original comment in this topic to things that can be proven conclusively from reliable sources (by wikipedia's standards of reliability) but now that you've mentioned him, Eric Striker also claimed that there are allegations of actual, real world sexual abuse against Sutter floating around. And we know from ex-members and their own propaganda that ToB was torturing and brainwashing their own members, all while fawning over MK Ultra and guys like James Jesus Angleton. Of course Myatt, Chloe, Moult etc. aren't innocent in all this, they've all advocated sexual violence and pedophilia at various times and were all great friends of Sutter until it became undeniable that he was some sort of intelligence asset (Chloe was a big supporter of ToB even after that actually).

I think we're probably on roughly the same page about what it actually is given your last sentence. Don't need a tinfoil hat to see it as intelligence agencies running a terroristic Nazi sex cult, you just need to not be blind. And it's very far from the first time that's happened. This isn't even the first one that's been satanist lol. Obviously we can't go too far into stuff like Gladio, CHAOS, PTK etc. but I think if we just laid out the facts as they're presented in MSM articles about the Sutter thing, we'd be in the clear. It's an important aspect of the case and I don't think anyone's going to argue that Rolling Stone and USA Today don't meet WP:RS. The Gladio connection is more difficult because there's less information on it and because it can't be proven that O9A is an op or Myatt an asset simply because he was in a Gladio organization. But there are sources putting him in that Gladio organization and it's certainly worth adding them. Myatt's membership is talked about on the Column 88 article with respectable citations.

To my mind, the only question is the logistical one of where exactly in the article to put these things and whether to group them in the same section or not. My thought is to add the Column 88 stuff into the portion of the article where Myatt is introduced and then add a separate "Federal Involvement" section that goes into ToB being FBI-funded. A section which exists only to talk about FBI connections to Sutter/ToB isn't ideal but idk where else we could put it. You're certainly much more familiar with wikipedia than I am so I think your ideas will be better than mine when it comes to this and would be interested in hearing them. ThoroldWest (talk) 14:39, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

MLO Described as a 09A group

Why has MLO been involved as a 09A-group? The MLO has nothing to do with 09A but was founded by Swedes and works with different traditions and has not the same "goals" as 09A. The Nazis that are involved with 09A like traditions is more likely to be Black Order. 83.253.100.56 (talk) 19:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

There's frequently overlap between O9A and ACS. A ton of the literature ToB published had an anticosmic bent, you occasionally see AWD/NSO post Liber Azerate, and a decent amount of ACS material shows clear influence from O9A, arguably including the original material. Falxifer was originally an O9A Dark God, Liber Azerate has a passage about how great Hitler was, iirc MLO stuff uses the term nexion even.

On a related note, O9A likes to claim that its magical system isn't influenced by Jewish occultism at all but this isn't true. The line "I will go down to the altars of hell" in the O9A black mass is a reversal of a line from a major Rosicrucian ritual according to Chloe in Nexion. The abyss is also clearly taken from Crowley and post-Crowleyan occultism, you're not going to find that concept in Cicero or the CH lol. ThoroldWest (talk) 00:11, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine vs Russian Media

Do we really have no issue with characterizing Ukrainians as Nazis, with every bit of evidence coming from Russian tabloids and Russian state-owned media, in the middle of a Russian invasion whose pretext was eliminating Nazis? This seems like blatant propaganda, do these sources comply with Wikipedia standards? I feel like this section should be removed unless corroborated by an unbiased source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt (talk • contribs) 19:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Finnish Ylioppilaslehti corroborates that there's ONA satanists in Azov. Azov's link to satanist Atomwaffen are well known so I believe it.RKT7789 (talk) 05:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't speak Finnish, but that source appears to say that they heard that was true but have been unable to confirm it. That doesn't seem to be confirming the claims made by the other untrusted sources, given that this was added to the article shortly after the invasion of Ukraine.Sheriffjt (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2022 (UTC)