Template talk:Certification Table Entry

Made you look

Meghan Trainer needs a certificate for her new song Made you look maybe look into it because people want to stream meghans trainers new song. 1.145.211.137 (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

If you have ideas on how to improve Made You Look (Meghan Trainor song) you should post them at that article's talk page. Muhandes (talk) 18:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Sales certificated for Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

I am moving the following discussion from Talk:Happy Xmas (War Is Over)#New Zealand sales : Gold singles ≥ 15,000 units (and not ≥ 10,000 units):

Hello, in the section "Certifications" sales in New Zealand are above 10,000 units but according to the source, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, see at the very bottom of the Web page, Gold singles indicate sales of 15,000 units and above (Platinum ≥ 30,000), at least since 2022. Perhaps the sales thresholds for singles have changed. Any info ? How is it possible to change 10,000 into 15,000 ? Thanks Carlo Colussi (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Carlo Colussi: The consensus reached by the community over the years is that the New Zealand certifications thresholds go by release date and not by certification date. Since Happy Xmas (War Is Over) was released in 1971, the template uses the thresholds used in that period, which are 10,000 units for Gold. Whether this is correct or not is something that should be discussed here. If you are interested, you should start by searching the archive of discussions and finding out the sources used for that decision. --Muhandes (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I have mentioned this on this page before, but I will quote again from the introduction to Dean Scapolo's book New Zealand Music Charts 1966 to 1996 – Singles, page 6, describing certifications listed in the book (with symbols that I can't reproduce here):

Following that is Silver / Gold / Platinum. These represent their respective awards for sales of: Gold: 10,000; Platinum: 20,000 (from 1978 to 1992). Silver was credited in 1987 as 5,000 units. The Gold and Platinum quantity requirements were halved in 1992 due to declining sales.

Harout72 didn't want to use these levels, on account of the fact that we have no firm start or end date for them, which is a fair point. It appears from the note regarding Platinum certifications that these levels were in use from 1978 to 1992, at which point Gold and Platinum were halved and Silver abolished completely. But do we know if certifications were given before 1978? Richard3120 (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Richard3120: I don't think the certification levels are the issue. The levels we are currently using for older releases are from Scapolo, Dean (2007). The Complete New Zealand Music Charts: 1966 – 2006. Wellington: Maurienne House. p. 7. ISBN 978-1877443-00-8., which is available here. Focusing on Gold, it says : Gold ● (10,000 copies to 1988, 5,000 from 1989). The point here is not the thresholds, it is the way we calculate them, which is following the release year rather than the certification year. I don't recall why we do that, but it has been the consensus forever. Muhandes (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the answer,

however I find it very strange that the thresholds are counted according to the release year and not the certification year. I can't see any accuracy in that method.

In the case of Happy Xmas yes it was released in 1971 but I don't think that this recent NZ certification takes into account sales since 1971 but only sales of a recent past.

When you click "Happy Xmas" in the NZ link, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, you may note that the record was on the charts for only 4 weeks. I greatly doubt that Happy Xmas stayed on the charts only 4 weeks in NZ since 1971, more precisely since 1975 because NZ had no charts previously according to the Wiki article Recorded Music NZ.

(In the link https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254 you can find that certifications have begun in 1975).

In other countries, certifications have also started late :

- in the UK in 1973 which could explain that the "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" has never been certified in the UK because it was released in 1970. Only the 2021 re-edition of "John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band" has been certified (that same year). If you look at https://www.bpi.co.uk/brit-certified/ and search "John Lennon" apparently the "Imagine" album that has been certified was released on ... 2010.10.04 (https://www.bpi.co.uk/award/3259-2886-2) whereas the original album has been released in 1971.

- in the USA, even the RIAA began certifications as late as 1958.

I know that these different music associations have retropolated counts for some very big artists but I think only for them and not for the others.

The RIAA have counted number of records sold before 1958 for Elvis Presley (but I'm not sure they have done it for Sinatra, Bing Crosby, etc ...; Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is possibly the biggest-selling single ever however it has no RIAA certification if I am not mistaken, which is pretty nonsense).

The BPI have likely done it for the Beatles before 1973 but I don't think they have done it for Lennon. In particular his album "Imagine" is only Gold in the UK so I wonder if that UK certification concerns only "Imagine" albums sold since 2010.10.04 and if sales between 1971 and 2010.10.03 have been omitted. If you have a look at the Lennon BPI certifications, they began in 1973 so it is likely that no Lennon records sold between 1968 and 1972 have been counted in any certification.

When you look at Lennon record charts in the UK, https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/27904/john-lennon/, you can see that there are 3 editions of "Happy Xmas" (1972, 2003 and 2007). Besides the UK certification of "Happy Xmas" concerns a record sold on 2005.11.07 (https://www.bpi.co.uk/award/14048-4298-1)

so I am not sure at all that the BPI certification takes into account the "Happy Xmas" records sold between 1972 (in the UK, the single was released one year after the US release) and the 2000's (2003 ?, 2005 ? Not clear).

In conclusion, it seems that many certifications are incomplete since many records sold are probably not counted. I wonder if the NZ certication concerns only the last (4 ? 5 ? other ?) years.

If it's right then it would be very inaccurate to calculate the thresholds according to the release year instead of the certification year.

If Recorded Music NZ certified on 3 January 2022 "Happy Xmas" as a Gold record with more than 15,000 units sold then indicating in Wikipedia that "only" 10,000 units have been sold is clearly an inaccuracy in my opinion. Carlo Colussi (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Muhandes: right, but I brought it up because in the earlier version of Scapolo's book it appears that the certification levels quoted are only valid from 1978. So did the country have certifications from before this date? New Zealand only had an official singles chart from May 1975, so did the country give out certifications before it even had a chart? If it didn't, then the certifications can't be from the year of release. We also now have another problem, because Scapolo gives different dates for the certifications in each of his two books. Richard3120 (talk) 21:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Proposal for changing New Zealand certification thresholds

@Richard3120 and Carlo Colussi: Let me try to summarize what I hear. The question at hand is a simple yes/no question: should the thresholds for RMNZ (and its predecessors) certifications go by certification date or release date? You both point out that going exclusively by release date is problematic. The numbers' accuracy seems unclear and would raise questions regarding certifications for releases made before certifications (or charting) started. I'd add that I don't see how this would work practically and that I don't think RMNZ is even fully aware of the certification level used over the years, considering even Scapolo gives different dates in different books.

Bottom line, there seems to be loose agreement (due to not much participation) that after 12 years that the template went by the release date, it should now be changed to go by the certification date. Please try to make this simple and either support or oppose the proposed change. If there are other issues with the template, we can resolve them separately.

Pinging Richard3120, Kleool, Merynancy, Harout72 (I know some are inactive). --Muhandes (talk) 09:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support: supporting proposal as nom. --Muhandes (talk) 07:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support : I guess that the certification date would be better. Carlo Colussi (talk) 07:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support - especially considering the amount of old songs re-charting now and obviously being certified with the current digital thresholds. ×°˜`°×ηαη¢у×°˜`°× 09:41, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Typo

@Muhandes: at {{Certification Table Entry/Region}} (current version) there's a typo "South Aftica", supposed to be "South Africa". Tran Xuan Hoa (talk) 03:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Tran Xuan Hoa:  Done thank you for reporting it. Muhandes (talk) 05:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

New Polish website

This template should be updated for Poland. The old website where certificates were presented is not updated anymore (but it still has full archive until January 2023). Now the whole history of Polish certificates can be seen here: https://www.olis.pl/charts/oficjalna-lista-wyroznien. Every album or single can be searched by clicking "Tytuł", while every performer by clicking "Wykonawca" (this could be added as a note in template after link). Thank you King10 (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

@King10: Switching to the new archive is going to be a huge undertaking since all the existing certifications uses |type=, |certyear= and |award=, and this will no longer work. Good thing they keep the old website too. I think the best solution is that if we don't have |certyear= (more relevant for {{cite certification}}, or certyear>2022 we will use |title= or in its absence, |artist= to search the new website. Otherwise, we will revert to the older archive. LEt me know what you think. Muhandes (talk) 09:07, 27 January 2023 (UTC)