Talk:2023 Formula One World Championship

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Added that Alfa Romeo initially entered round 2 as Alfa Romeo F1 Team Kick. The FIA then released a second entry list with the entrant being named Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake as usual. On top of that, Alfa Romeo took part in FP1 as Alfa Romeo F1 Team Kick, from FP2 onwards as Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake. Island92 (talk) 18:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

But it Australian GP (Round 3), they still use “Alfa Romeo F1 Team Kick” as entry name in official entry list. Shall anyone make a change? 218.188.221.130 (talk) 06:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done.--Island92 (talk) 08:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

please also added that they returned to Alfa Romeo F1 Team Stake for azerbaijan GP in the note section (source: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Azerbaijan%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Entry%20List.pdf) 223.19.112.230 (talk) 09:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Unnecessary. The Note indicates where the Entrant entered differently compared to the usual name expected to enter in all Grands Prix, as the competitor was registered in the season entry list.--Island92 (talk) 19:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Hi, this opening paragraph is grammatically incorrect, "The championship is contested over a record twenty-three Grands Prix to be held around the world, began in March and will end in November.". You might like to change it. Maybe just add in, "championship, **which** is contested". Thanks Mickey Smiths (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Modified it. --Marbe166 (talk) 06:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Cheers Mickey Smiths (talk) 18:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Imola

A simple question: Should we leave a column for the cancelled Emilia Romagna Grand Prix and fill in with white-backgound (not blanked background) "C"s per the key on the right of the championship standings tables? It is not like Shanghai, where it was cancelled before the season, Imola was due to be the sixth round of the championship. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:22, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

As far as I understand the C is only to be used if the weekend has actually started. See the Australian GP in 2020 for example: that had gone as far as having the entry list published and track action starting, but we didn't use C for the race result. If a free practice or qualifying session had been completed then we would have. Similar situation here. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 12:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

In any case, we don’t need a full table for this in the calendar section. We can deal with this more than adequately with prose. Tvx1 12:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought that it would be appropriate to have it still listed in the Calendar section but with the number (6) removed & the word 'CANCELLED' through all the columns (different from what we see now). I think it needs to be acknowledged that there WAS a plan to hold the race just that it didn't happen through external factors (& on the cusp of the race actually being held). I would remove it from the Results & Standings section however, which is what we see now. Thanks. Mickey Smiths (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Actually I've just seen where there is a note at the bottom of the Calendar section in relation to the race, so it hasn't been ignored completely (I shoulda realised). I change my vote: I think how it looks now is OK. Thanks. Mickey Smiths (talk) 17:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

it’s listed on the the calendar of the official F1 site, and listed as called off, so, yes, it should be still listed on there calendar here as cancelled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.37.45.195 (talk) 16:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

How one website choose to present their isn't particularly relevant. In much the same way we have decided to include circuit location and they haven't. We are under no obligation to follow a presention format, regardless of how official the website happens to be. SSSB (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

How arrogant. One website? Only the website of the actual entity in question. This is going against Wikipedia guidelines to make stuff up; there IS an obligation to follow relevant sources. 98.37.45.195 (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

https://www.skysports.com/f1/grandprix/azerbaijan

https://www.espn.com/f1/schedule

https://www.formula1.com/en/racing/2023.html 98.37.45.195 (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

https://www.skysports.com/f1/schedule-results 98.37.45.195 (talk) 19:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies on sourcing information only applies to the information, not how we present the information. That is the decision of Wikipedia contributors alone. You are welcome to discuss and advocate for that appraoch - but the argument "all these sources use this approach" is not a convincing one. Least of all because those sources are not articles - our approach of detailing cancellations in written prose is not an option for those sources as they are just tables/lists. SSSB (talk) 09:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

It's literally F1's own calendar on their own website that shows it as round 6 of 23 in the 2023 Formula One World Championship (it's also shown as round 5 of 14 in the Formula 2 Championship, round 3 of 10 in the Formula 3 Championship, and round 1 of 8 in the Porsche Supercup on those championships' respective websites). This isn't the same as 2020 and 2021 where races that were cancelled mid-season were removed from the calendar. Are you seriously saying that the official F1 website isn't a good enough source? Nineixsixine (talk) 18:40, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Let admin work on F1.com. We don't really care what they do. The race is cancelled for the time being. Island92 (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll take that as a yes. Nineixsixine (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Nineixsixine, this is now two distinct issue. The first issue, the original issue in this discussion, is about how we present the information (i.e. should the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix stay in the calendar table), information presentation is not goverened by how sources do it.

The second issue is round numbering, this is goverened by sources (the raw information is goverened by sources, how we present it is not), however, as far as I can tell, F1.com are in the minority. For example, Sky Sports calls Monaco round 6. So does Motorsport.com and these sources are equally reliable. SSSB (talk) 11:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The second issue is round numbering, this is goverened by sources

I would argue that the official FIA calendar — which F1/F2/F3 use — should be the overarching source on this. While Imola was called off, it was not removed from the calendar. This weekend, the F1 session broadcasts and social media have been saying it's Round 7; same with F2 Round 6, and F3 Round 4. It differs to previous cancellations as Russia 22 and China 23 were removed from the calendar; while in 2020 the calendar was rewritten entirely without Australia.

For an additional source, the official FIA media kit for this weekend retains the Imola GP in the published points tables (p54) and season calendar (p55). 🇮🇪 TheChrisD {💬|✏️} 19:37, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The major problem with this (which Island92 refered to albeit breifly) is time. We are talking about graphics and media kits that have been prepered in advance, with simple placeholders where editors can slap in the stats post-Imola. Neither the media kit, nor the the FIA website refer to round numbers in anycase, so don't prove anything with this issue. Where this is different from CHN and RUS is that those events were cancelled with time to correct the subsequent media kits and TV graphics. This is a WP:RECENTISM issue, and also a WP:COMMONSENSE one. It makes no sense to refer to Imola as round 6, because nothing happened. Again, the FIA and media kits don't call Imola round 6 (as they don't use round numbers at all) and I don't see why they would be the superior source. We follow the sources, not the one official source - otherwise it makes us no different that a satellite FIA website. SSSB (talk) 08:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

TheChrisD does have point that if the FIA include it in their results (i.e. the full WDC/WCC classifications they will publish tomorrow) then that implies they do still see it as being round six. I agree however that the media kit is meaningless. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 08:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The document for the Drivers' Championship and Constructors' Championship standings after the Monaco Grand Prix includes the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix in the calendar, as do the Formula 2 and Formula 3 standings. Nineixsixine (talk) 12:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The official FIA statistics portal does not. Please see my comments below. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 13:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

No, Grands Prix cancelled are removed from the calendar, as was the best case in 2020 impacted by the pandemic. On that occasion, as there were multiple Grands Prix called off, we made a table involving them. In 2023 is not the case for only two Grands Prix which said goodbye. I think it's only a question of time until F1.com removes from the list the Imola Grand Prix in the calendar website-section. In any case, we simply do not have to follow what admins on F1.com do.--Island92 (talk) 20:13, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Since FOM et al have been referring to Monaco as round 7 all weekend, is it time to revisit this? 49 TL 15:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

No. Imola race is called off for the time being. F1 says it. When we have an update we update the section. The reason why the race is still in the document is because F1 said not to proceed with it, rather than it will not take place in 2023. But F1 calendar says called off.Island92 (talk) 17:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Although I changed my 'vote' earlier I still believe it should be included in the calendar. The potential exists for every round to be cancelled at the last minute (as happened this year at Imola). If that were to happen, & the current guidelines followed, then the calendar would be empty & would not be a true representation of the years' events (intended or otherwise). Events cancelled at the beginning of the season (or just prior) should rightly be precluded from appearing on the calendar but an event cancelled at the last minute has a right to appear (to remain) on the calendar. Thanks. Mickey Smiths (talk) 11:52, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry. But I don't understand the distinction. If all the remaining rounds were cancelled tomorrow it would still "not be a true representation of the years events (intended or otherwise)" SSSB (talk) 19:24, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The calendar would be empty suggesting there was never a championship. It would not be a true representation of the intent to hold the championship. When events are cancelled before a season starts the intent is that they form no part of a championship & therefore are excluded in every respect. Do not confuse the cancellation of Imola in 2023 with any other pre-season cancellation of a GP. They are not the same. Mickey Smiths (talk) 20:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

They are the same. This is a distinction you have just made up. SSSB (talk) 06:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Post-Monaco situation

Noting that there is a current disagreement between @BryOn2205U: and @Sience4Life:, which @Island92: has also contributed to, I think it is worth clarifying the situation as it currently stands.

After Monaco (originally the seventh race, now the sixth race held) we are in a situation where some FIA sources have retained Imola on their calendar (without numbering the rounds), where FOM has referred to Monaco as round 7 in the broadcast, where most secondary sources have removed Imola from their calendars, and where official FIA statistics have excluded Imola entirely and call Monaco round 6. Given the clear conflict between primary and secondary sources, and even between primary sources, I don't see a clear cut solution.

What I think is clear is that Imola does not count statistically. Nobody has tried to argue that, so I think we're all in agreement that the drivers and teams have only entered and started 6 races this season. I don't think anyone is arguing for Imola to be included in WDC or WCC charts.

What I think is unclear is whether or not we retain it in our calendar, and there remains some disagreement about this. However, this is clearly unworkable. Even the FIA are inconsistent on this, so I don't believe there's a strong official stance. It might be cleared up in time, or it might not. I don't think anyone can coherently argue that it still counts as round 6. The necessary conclusion from that is that there was a round 6 nobody entered. That's not the case. If the calendar proceeds as planned, there will be 22 races, and 22 race classifications published. This is clearly a 22 race season.

Considering this, I think it is (a) absolutely clear Imola has not statistical significance and is not counted whatsoever, and (b) relatively clear that Imola can be excluded from the round count and calendar, given that it generally ignored by secondary sources and excluded from FIA statistics lists. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 02:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• You are correct, Imola had/has no statistical value, but we are talking about the calendar, not the 'Results and standings'. It should appear in the calendar but should not appear in the 'Results and standings'. Imola must be recognised as forming a part of the calendar for 2023 despite not actually going ahead. Thanks. Mickey Smiths (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
  • Yep so if you read my comment you would see I was also talking about the calendar. I get that it's your preference that we do put it back in, but as I've explained I don't think that's at all feasible. Why do you disagree? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 12:07, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

    When a GP is cancelled pre-season there is no attempt for anyone to attend that cancelled race (it doesn't even appear on a calendar with an assigned date [fully removed & only commented about]). In this case Imola had an assigned date & various personnel were in attendance at the location preparing for the race weekend during the preceding week. This HAS to be acknowledged. Imola forms part of the calendar; an intent to hold the race. Can I ask, if the race had been called off the morning of the Friday & before free practice had begun would you be pushing for it to still be removed from th calendar? I say the cutoff for it not to appear on the calendar was at the beginning of the year when the FIA put the calendar together. The fact entities were in attendance preparing for the race weekend means 100% Imola happened, but didn't happen. It should, at the very least, retain a spot on the calendar. Mickey Smiths (talk) 20:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

    If we take a look at the 2020, 2021 and 2022 calendar, the FIA, FOM and Official FIA documents removed the rounds from their brodcasts/online calendars/documents. Seeing as the 2023 Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix is still listed on those same sources' lists, I think the correct thing should be to include it, with a note saying it is canceled.

    There is nothing to discuss about there only beeing driven 6 rounds in the 2023 Formula 1-calendar, but seeing as these same sources that removed the whole 2020 Calendar, China in ´21, ´22 and ´23, Türkiye in ´21 and Russia in ´22 then excluded these round from the championship, and official papers bringing the total of races down.

    If the FIA, FOM and Official FIA Documents remove the round at the end of the year, then it should be deleted from the list Sience4Life (talk) 22:33, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  We did not act like that when multiple races were called off in 2020, 2021 and less in 2023. Those races were removed from the calendar, too. Island92 (talk) 15:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  They were removed well in advance of any race weekend even being attended. Imola was attended, as it had a date & an intent to hold a race. Imola cannot be compared to the pre-season cancellations of previous years. Mickey Smiths (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  It' simply like 2020 AUS. Island92 (talk) 04:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is totally unnecessary. The 2023 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix was cancelled in exactly the same way as the 2020 Australian Grand Prix. It is gone. Dead. Expired. Deceased. It should be excluded from any calendar and any results as if it never existed. Even if ambiguity existed, which it doesn't, we can follow the precedent set in 2020. If by some miracle the FIA is able to reschedule the event, which is extraordinarily unlikely, we can address it then. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:31, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Exactly that. Island92 (talk) 04:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The calendar is a list of events that were contested or are due to be contested. the Imola round is neither of these things. SSSB (talk) 06:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Race # of ?

On all the articles before 2023 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix it is written "Race # of 23" and the note "at the time of the event F1 planned to hold twenty three Grand Prix". Maybe it is more correct to "Race # of 22" and the note "at the time of the event F1 planned to hold twenty three Grand Prix"??? Because in the case as it is written now, the note is meaningless. 212.164.64.228 (talk) 13:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

•  Fixed 5225_C (talk • contributions) 13:30, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
• This has been disputed by Island92 for some reason. The infobox reads "Race X of Y in 202N Formula One World Championship". The number Y can be changed at any time, it is not fixed in position. The 2023 Bahrain Grand Prix will always be the first race of the 2023 season, but unless another race is added it cannot never be the first race out of 23. This is objectively true. Listing it as "Race 1 of 23" is factually wrong. Having a note to say that at the time of the event, 23 races were planned is perfectly fine. Actually saying there were 23 races in the season is simply wrong and misleading. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 14:43, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
  • You cannot report 1 of 22 if the Note information says 23. This is also misleading. And I corrected the same case in 2021 and 2022.--Island92 (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
    • There are 22 races this season that are not cancelled. We need to be consistent: either don't list Imola on the calendar here and also list everything as X of 22, else we have to list Imola on this page and list everything as X of 23. My preference is X of 22, and the note explaining it was originally 23 is fine. Otherwise the 2020 races will be a mess, because the number of races changed so many times (and at the time of the first race of 2020, only about 5 races had been confirmed, so should we list it as 1 of 5 therefore?) Joseph2302 (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
    • What? Of course you can report that there are 22 races in the season, because there are 22 races in the season. The note can say 23 races were planned, because 23 races were planned. 23 races were not held, so how can a race be part of a 23 race season when only 22 races were held? You have not "corrected" anything. There was no error. You have introduced an error that reports to a reader that 23 races were held, but if they go to check the results of the 23 races, they will only find 22. Please explain how any of this makes sense. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 15:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

      Question understood. I adjusted everything. 2020 1 of 17, since 2021 1 of 22. Island92 (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Las Vegas

Are we sure the race in Vegas is on the 18th? Not the 19th? The calendar seems odd 89.205.129.9 (talk) 05:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's being held on the evening of Saturday the 18th of November - see https://www.formula1.com/en/racing/2023/Las_Vegas.html

It officially starts at 10PM PST on the 18th, which means that for most F1 followers it starts on the morning of the 19th. It is absolutely correct to state it starts on the 18th though. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Show championship leader, #2, and gap in results/standings table

In the dutch version of this page (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formule_1_in_2023), there are 3 additional columns in the Results/Standings table, which display for each race who the championship leader was, who was the #2, and what the gap in points between those two was, after the race.

I think this could be a nice addition to the table. Especially for the previous seasons this would give a nice quick view of how close the title race was during the season.

I understand this is might not be a change I can just add without some discussion, so that's why I started this topic to see what people would think of the idea. MLtinus [TALK] 07:50, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, the current style is simply perfect. I said said because may be I'm accustomed to it very much, but the table suits nicely. Island92 (talk) 08:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

This proposal places too much emphasis on the drivers's standings over the constructors. It is WP:UNDUE. Having both the drivers and consturcors here would make the table excessively wide. And it isn't really within the scope of that table to give this sort of information. SSSB (talk) 12:28, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the current version has enough information but not too much. Differences between drivers after races if relevant can be covered in text in the race summaries, and indeed on English Wikipedia, prose text is preferred. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I'm a total numbers/statistics guy myself, that's where the suggestion came from, but especially the equal representation of driver's and constructor's championship progress is a good argument for not including it, or otherwise having too big of a table. MLtinus [TALK] 13:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)