Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Post Alley Pizza: Difference between revisions

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Post Alley Pizza

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A restaurant that only gets local coverage/reviews. Would need wider coverage as per WP:AUD to meet GNG or WP:ORG. LibStar (talk) 01:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per GNG (disclaimer: article creator) as the topic has been covered by multiple independent and reliable sources. This is a continuation of restaurant entries mass-nominated for deletion unnecessarily (my user talk page is littered with notifications for similar entries which have been kept following AfD discussions). Like prior attempts to gut coverage of the restaurant industry, I have no choice but to assume nominator did not complete a thorough source assessment before jumping to AfD because I very easily found many reliable local and regional news sources as well as books and other industry outlets, providing in-depth coverage of the business. I've asked the nominator many times to please post concerns on talk pages before mass-nominating and jumping to AfD. This entry should be kept and expanded, not deleted. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Besides the WP:ADHOM comments, if this was a straightforward keep with reliable sources, you would have 100% keep votes...which is not the case. LibStar (talk) 06:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink, Business, and Washington. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:27, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Every one of the many sources in the article is either a local review or mentions the subject as a passing example. Fails WP:ORGDEPTH. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been expanded significantly, if you're willing to take another look. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not getting any notability 'vibe' here. Sparse history. Nothing about the decor or building or culture. All I'm seeing is elements of a menu, names of owners and local reviews of the type, "here's a great pizza". Looked at a few of these bars/eateries/restaurants nominated for deletion and normally find something to latch on to and see why a keep opinion is warranted. Not going to wade through all the sources. I'm evaluating the notability of the pizzeria from what's written in the article. Many bland, shallow, rote "reviews" do not make this place notable and it seems that this article has little else but such reviews to shore it up — witness the length of the Reception section compared with the rest of the article. Fails all notability criteria including GNG. Firstly, there's no credible claim as to why this place is notable. The only indication is that it "offers granulated garlic to shake on your slice". Secondly, the reviews appear not to fulfill the requirement of WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS and hence do not amount to significant, indepth coverage. If someone kindly points out the reviews with most depth, I'll take a second look. The onus on providing the evidence for notability rests with those seeking to keep the article. Rupples (talk) 06:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded the article with more operational history and demonstrated reach outside the Seattle area via Timothy Egan of The New York Times. Will continue to expand as time allows. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:41, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the article passes the notability guidelines per WP:ORGIND. Sahaib (talk) 20:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep I don't think the current references pass the WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS requirement above, most are just reviews. However, there are a lot of references on there, leading me to believe that cleanup could be possible. However, I am very much on the fence here, the references for the most part in the article now are not enough to provide notability. Royal Autumn Crest (talk) 20:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete An independent pizza joint is somehow notable? Nice that Seattle has such as vibrant media scene, but hyper-local media 'Five places to snack' pieces do not get us past WP:GNG, folks... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 13:57, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, an independent pizzeria can be notable. To pass GNG, a topic just needs significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, like Post Alley! Not all of the sources here are local. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:10, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, User:Another Believer has added several new sources to the article. Some are WP:LOCAL, such as each Seattle Times article, but there are some sources from outside of Seattle (two from Portland, one from the New York Times), and one from a not-sure-if-reputable pizza magazine (PMQ Pizza Magazine). Given the sources themselves, I am not sure if they meet WP:GNG given the content of the source articles. Conyo14 (talk) 22:52, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Another one of the supposed fast-food joints as being notable. Coverage is just woeful again. I don't understand why the incessant need to put every eatery in for that city. I often wonder if its money or some kind of coi. Anyway, I suspect that in the months leading up to Christmas, more of them will be reaching Afd. scope_creep^Talk 17:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop with the vague COI accusations and threats to continue hounding me. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Might be a pattern of behavior, they made a similar comment to User:A. B. on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Accel-KKR and received a warning against "casting aspersions" on their talk page. - Indefensible (talk) 07:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked this editor to leave me alone many times. The community seemingly doesn't really seem interested in punishing them for their problematic behaviors. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm holding off on !voting until I look deeper into the sourcing, but I have to say this article is extremely promotional. (No offense to the creator who has obviously worked hard on it.) I'm sure the pizza is great and the owners are good people, who like ~~tens~~ hundreds of thousands of small business owners do nice things for their community and donate to charitable causes. However I really wonder if it is appropriate for an encyclopedia to have actual menu items and ordering options in an article like The menu has also included breakfast sandwiches made with English muffins; varieties include: B.E.C.; sausage; vegetarian; and one with bacon, cashew butter, roasted delicata squash, and honey. and Other ingredients for Italian sandwiches have included sesame hoagie rolls, finocchiona salami, spicy coppa, ham, provolone, red onion, and coleslaw. "Hoagie jazz”, an anchovy spread with calabrian chiles and garlic, has been served on the side. Dipping sauces include a homemade ranch and calabrian chili buffalo sauce. If it is kept I suggest removing all the advertorial content and it pruning it back to a short piece. Netherzone (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to discuss specific content on the article's talk page. I will say, though, that I've included similar menu overviews in the many (50+) restaurant entries I've promoted to Good article status. We can discuss any text you might find promotional but basic menu summaries are pretty standard for restaurant articles. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I left a comment on the article talk page. Netherzone (talk) 12:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'll take a look and I'd be happy to address your concerns but not until this discussion is closed (and assuming the article is kept). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 12:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Two things:

@Another Believer, I'm unable to !vote k**p at this time because there is so much superfluous content and verbiage and an overabundance of hyper-local sourcing that it is hard to see the wood for the trees. I can't tell what is really there! If it were stripped back to a short stub article with about 3-to-5 of the very best sources that would help. I'm willing to devote the time and effort into doing so before this AfD closes but can't promise that it would result in a k**p. And I would not want my efforts to be perceived as destructive, deletionist or disruptive to the AfD or otherwise uncollegial. So at this time, I'm leaning towards TNT.

@Elemimele, I think you hit the nail on the head, not just in terms of this article but a larger issue regarding the lack of guidance/policy on restaurant articles. Something that keeps coming up for me in relation to this is: Do we want articles on restaurants to be proper encyclopedia articles, or do we want them to be a compendium of restaurant reviews proving how fabulous the eatery is? My way of thinking is aligned with the former. Netherzone (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone I understand you have issues with specific text, but this is a discussion about secondary coverage. If you prefer, you can totally ignore the text of this Wikipedia entry and focus solely on the citations to determine whether or not you feel there's enough coverage to justify an entry on Wikipedia. I'm all for article improvements by you and other editors, especially this late in the stage of AfD. By all means, please make the entry better, but know unless you vote keep your time may be wasted. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:36, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Another Believer, what are the 3 to 5 best sources?

Could you please list them here? Netherzone (talk) 22:18, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as TNT because the article is so, so overpromotional that even if it is notable, you'd have to start from scratch in writing it. But, Comment, we really need a proper consensus not just on this restaurant but on restaurants in general, about what makes them notable. The normal requirement of multiple independent sources breaks down totally with restaurants because writing reviews about food outlets is a major part of what every newspaper does. Every restaurant in the universe has newspaper writeups. Even national newspapers do it, and not necessarily of nationally relevant restaurants - they run out of significant restaurants to write about, and write about anywhere their journalist could find. It's almost impossible to be a restaurant without sources. Strewth, if you stand outside a railway station selling cookies for half an hour, someone will write a review about you. If we carry on with no guidelines, we're going to get more-or-less random keeps and deletes according to who happens to turn up at an AfD, and whether they reckon a heap of local newspaper raves and a celebrity-sighting is enough. What is it that makes a restaurant stand out from the crowd? I don't think granulated garlic (which this particular restaurant provides, uniquely in Seattle) is sufficient. Elemimele (talk) 20:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Elemimele As someone who's on the receiving end of a constant stream of deletion notifications about restaurants, I could not agree more about coming up with standards for restaurant entries. However, I completely disagree about all restaurants getting news coverage. The vast majority of restaurants do not get much coverage. But, I'll take back my comment if you can demonstrate the ease of getting someone to review your 1/2 hour bake sale. :P ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:32, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Although many of the sources would only qualify as passing mentions (that do serve verifiability), the review by the SeattleMet is significant coverage meeting WP:SIRS. Multiple The Seattle Times sources also qualify as statewide and Pacific Northwest regional circulation, meeting the WP:AUD requirement, at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source you've highlighted contributes as one source towards satisfying WP:SIRS. SIRS requires multiple such sources to establish notability and this is the only one that does. Hence, the article does not meet SIRS. Rupples (talk) 22:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, this also counts and would allow further article development. This entry could benefit from a bit more detail about how the business has evolved based on ownership -- the pizzeria was established in 1997, yet Portland Monthly called the business a "star newcomer" in 2023 and one of the owners was recently called a "rising star". Combined with all of the talk page comments, it seems there's at least some interest in getting this entry to a more polished state. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:19, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It fails WP:ORGIND as much of the content is quotes from the owner. There's not sufficient depth in what remains.Rupples (talk) 23:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Seattle Refined "source" states on their "About" page: "We would love to feature your business, interests, favorite restaurants, etc. on our Seattle Refined platforms. If you'd like to advertise or partner with us, please reach out to our sales team here. If you're interested in pitching us a story about something cool in the Pacific Northwest, please contact our editorial team at hello@seattlerefined.com." - This is the very definition of advertorial native advertising. It is not SIGCOV. It's paid "product" placement. Netherzone (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you're saying but I'd be comfortable using this source for basic operational history details. You'll forgive me for moving on to other tasks. This never ending train of restaurant deletion nominations (I see LibStar just tagged yet another...) is really killing the enjoyment of contributing to Wikipedia. Constant pings, notifications, tags, one after the next, seemingly indiscriminately because most of the nominations have survived AfD. If editors decide to keep this entry, I'm happy to collaborate on the article's talk page, but this will be my last comment in this AfD discussion. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Significant coverage" is a relative concept. For example, many of the cited sources meet the WP:100W bar; this one, for example, tallies at 170 words; this one and this on each at 105 words. Do you have other criteria rather than word count to establish significant coverage? — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 23:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good question. I'm using WP:RESTAURANTREVIEWS as the guideline that establishes significant coverage for any one source. Rupples (talk) 00:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting because otherwise this looks like another restaurant AFD closing as No consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz Can anything be done to slow down the restaurant nominations? I am clearly being targeted: Rubinstein Bagels, Askatu Bakery, Volunteer Park Cafe & Pantry, Lockspot Cafe, etc. This is not sustainable and there has to be a better way to go about discussing notability of restaurants than indiscriminately nominating at AfD. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another Believer, in my 18 months closing discussions at AFD, it's not unheard of for one editor to mass-nominate the work of another editor but it's usually done with new, inexperienced editors. And, with your articles, this has been going on for months. I doubt a word on a User talk page will change another editor's mind so I think your only alternative is to go to ANI. But I think this issue has already been brought to that noticeboard without a satisfying result or else it still wouldn't be happening. I'm sorry I don't have a quick, painless solution. There are a few admins who would boldly take action in a situation like this without community consensus but that's not my approach to this job. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A real case of WP:OWN. It's not targeting, I also have recently nominated Australian restaurants too. It's WP:ADHOM as well. How is this not sustainable? Any article created by anyone at any time and in any order can be nominated for deletion. If this had what you consider 100% notability it would have sailed through as a WP:SNOW keep. If you don't like articles being nominated for deletion, maybe you should create your own website of every restaurant/cafe that existed in the USA. There are options outside Wikipedia. LibStar (talk) 07:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for purpose of WP:TNT, this could potentially work as an article but as it stands right now, this article is a disaster. Tear it down and start over. --TheInsatiableOne (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 :::[[User:Another Believer|Another Believer]], in my 18 months closing discussions at AFD, it's not unheard of for one editor to mass-nominate the work of another editor but it's usually done with new, inexperienced editors. And, with your articles, this has been going on for months. I doubt a word on a User talk page will change another editor's mind so I think your only alternative is to go to ANI. But I think this issue has already been brought to that noticeboard without a satisfying result or else it still wouldn't be happening. I'm sorry I don't have a quick, painless solution. There are a few admins who would boldly take action in a situation like this without community consensus but that's not my approach to this job. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 07:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 :::A real case of [[WP:OWN]]. It's not targeting, I also have recently nominated Australian restaurants too. It's [[WP:ADHOM]] as well. How is this not sustainable? Any article created by anyone at any time and in any order can be nominated for deletion. If this had what you consider 100% notability it would have sailed through as a [[WP:SNOW]] keep. If you don't like articles being nominated for deletion, maybe you should create your own website of every restaurant/cafe that existed in the USA. There are options outside Wikipedia. [[User:LibStar|LibStar]] ([[User talk:LibStar|talk]]) 07:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
+*'''Delete''' for purpose of [[WP:TNT]], this could potentially work as an article but as it stands right now, this article is a disaster. Tear it down and start over. --[[User:TheInsatiableOne|TheInsatiableOne]] ([[User talk:TheInsatiableOne|talk]]) 10:23, 14 July 2023 (UTC)