Talk:Sudanese civil war (2023–present)

2023 Sudan Civil War

With over 10,000 deaths [1] and numerous WP:RS calling it a civil war at this point, it unfortunately is one and thus should be classified as the 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War [2], [3]. Seeking consensus for name change to 2023-Present Sudanese Civil War (or a similar title). Dilbaggg (talk) 13:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the Fourth Sudanese Civil War will do. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:27, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The number of deaths isn't relevant - it's WP:COMMONNAME - ie what the majority of sources and therefore readers are calling this event. The only mention (apart from a headline) in either article of 'war/civil war' is "The United Nations has warned that Sudan could be on the verge of all-out-war"and " UNHCR meanwhile has warned that an "all-out civil war" could lead to the "destabilization" of the region". No one calls it the "Fourth Sudanese Civil War", so no reader would recognise the name. Just about every martial word is being used at present, sometimes 'war', sometimes 'fighting', sometimes 'conflict'. IMO the present title is clear and will suffice until a generally used name evolves. Pincrete (talk) 15:13, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

These sources [4], [5], [6], hope you know how to click the 4, 5, 6 and read the sources . These are just three of many sources that have already called in a civil War. Conflict in Sudan has been going on since the 1960s, there were already three previous civil war and per WP:RS unfortunately a fourth has begun! Dilbaggg (talk) 06:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

This started as a small anti-coup protests which begun being larger and after WP:RS considered it Myanmar civil war (2021–present) it has been named as such, the same should go for Sudan! Dilbaggg (talk) 06:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Anyways just at least see the three of many sources: [7], [8], [9] Dilbaggg (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I saw them and does not affect Pincrete point, i.e., what the majority of sources and therefore readers are calling this event? and it is really does not support your point of calling it the "Sudan civil was (2023-present)" .. please stop using provocative language as hope you know how to click, what that suppose to mean?! FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

sources 4 & 5 - (DW & CNN), as I've already said, above refer to the UN/UNHCR warnings of what this might lead to when they speak of 'civil war', they aren't using it to describe the present situation. I can't read TES ($£). But nobody anywhere is calling it the Fourth Sudanese Civil War and we don't name articles based on our own assessment of what the event logically should be called - which is what you are proposing. You are welcome to start a move discussion to a 'stronger' term if you wish, but you cannot make up names for a conflict/war/fighting, especially when it risks being less recognisable to the potential reader. Because there is no clear established 'name' at present, we are left with coming up with the most recognisable description of the current events. Just about every martial word is being used at present is sources, sometimes 'war', sometimes 'fighting', sometimes 'conflict' - ocassionally 'civil war', never AFAI can see "Nth Sudanese Civil war". I don't know about the Myanmar events, but maybe sources have settled on a name for what has happened there - IMO they haven't yet iro Sudan. Pincrete (talk) 07:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

NB

You've posted the DW and CNN three times now and the TES one twice - the first two STILL don't call it a civil war and no one calls it the "Nth Sudanese Civil war".Pincrete (talk) 07:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

The 2021 Myanmar Conflict was gradually changed to Civil War as WP:RS started emerging, i am sure the same would be the case here, there are already many WP:RS that calls it a Civil War and it would be named as such. Perhaps 2023 - Present Sudanese Civil War, just like the current title 2023 Sudan Conflict has been "infered" rather than plagarised from the WP:RSs, lets wait and see but if more Wp:RSs emerges calling it a civil war it would have to be named as such, its not something i hope would happen but unfortunately it may go that way. Dilbaggg (talk) 09:35, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

If we were to do that, then I suggest we call it Third Sudanese Civil War. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@WikipedianRevolutionary I 100% agree. Also here is yet another source calling it a Civil war: [10] and there are more emerging. Dilbaggg (talk) 05:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The headline in AA calls it a civil war, within the article it consistently uses 'conflict'. There have been a few others like that already.Pincrete (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Why do many RS still not refer to it as a civil war? What does it possibly lack to fit its definition? Are some saying that it's a low-intensity conflict? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 16:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/africa/sudan-one-million-flee-un-intl/index.html

We have a CNN article now refereing to what is going on in sudan as a civil war. Honestly it was only a matter of time, but this page really needs to be updated to fit the current situation. We have multiple news arricles calling it a war, we have over 3,000 people dead in a four month old conflict, so why is this still being referred to as the "2023 sudan conflict"? That really seems to minimize what is actually going on in the country. I think it is more than fair at this point to call this the third sudanese civil war, and if some are still not comfortable calling a spade a spade, I would ask that this page at least be renamed the "2023 sudan war," instead of the "sudan conflict." What is going on in sudan is a war plain and simple. We all know that, and so do major news networks. 2602:306:CD04:62F0:FB99:21D9:B3F8:773B (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The severity of the fighting has no effect on whether WE call it a civil war and NO sources are calling it the Third Sudanese Civil War. Not one! Pincrete (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

we have multiple sources calling it a war at this point. I told you before, it makes plenty of sense to just call it the 2023 Sudan War at this point. Exactly how long are we supposed to wait to change the name? Till everyone calls it the sudan war? So in a year if 99% of sources call it the sudan war but one article says "Sudan's fighting" or "sudan's conflict," is a conflict with tens of thousands of dead people still gonna be called "a conflict"?

Also you're not entirely correct about "not one" source calling it the third Sudanese civil war. In a strict sense that is true, but I just listed a source that called it "Sudan's civil war," and seeing as they had two others already, that implies it is the third one. 2602:306:CD04:62F0:61A0:A9E3:6380:9363 (talk) 16:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

And yet all you can dump for this discussion page is just one link. Borgenland (talk) 16:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, in no part of the UN report cited by CNN was the word civil war mentioned. Only a clickbait headline by CNN and an assumption by the same news org. Borgenland (talk) 16:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

https://reliefweb.int/report/sudan/sudan-situation-unhcr-external-update-22-8-14-august-2023 Borgenland (talk) 16:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I just listed a source that called it "Sudan's civil war," and seeing as they had two others already, that implies it is the third one. That's what we call WP:OR, if the sources thought that this was the Third Sudanese Civil War, they can probably count as well as you and would be calling it that by now.

It isn't un-common for a clear name to take a while to become established for an event, but we follow, not lead that process. Pincrete (talk) 16:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Move request

I think it's now time to call it a civil war, many sources are now calling this a civil war, theres also now 3 belligrants and it surpassed 10k of deaths

Change from "2023 Sudan Conflict" to "Third Sudanese Civil War" Lucasmota0975 (talk) 23:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose Even if some sources are calling it a civil war some of the time, no source is calling it the Third, Fourth or Nth civil War any of the time. The proposed name is OR and neither COMMONNAME nor recognisable. Neither the number of deaths, nor of belligerents has any bearing on whether 'civil war' nor Nth civil War is the apt title.Pincrete (talk) 07:26, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Pincrete + the nom doesn’t reference any policy or even include references or sources to where it’s been called the “Third Sudanese Civil War”.

PS: Sorry to say this as I am feeling like I am kinda breaching Wikipedia policy on articles ownership, but it feels like some people just read a few articles and come here to recommend a change in the title nevertheless. Do these people think that editors, who build and maintain this page, don’t actually read how the sources describe this event?! FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, I wouldn't be opposed to a Sudanese Civil War (2023-present) title or 2023 Sudanese Civil War or something similar, but no one is calling it the Third Sudanese Civil War. In addition I've also seen many sources talk about the risk of the conflict becoming a civil war, rather than the conflict being a civil war itself, so a name change to "civil war" may still not be warranted anyways - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 16:23, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support - this is obviously now a protracted civil war, and sources are referring to it as such.XavierGreen (talk) 15:03, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

  But not even a single source is calling it the Third (or fourth or nth) Sudanese Civil War Pincrete (talk) 17:45, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be called the third or fourth Sudanese civil war I like third better though.

I heard some people call the aftermath of the second Sudanese civil war the third but I think it could also refer to this or you could call it the fourth but I think third is better I want to see what people think. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

You could also just call it like the 2023 Sudanese civil war. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

It is not the job of the editors to arbitrarily impose a name for this conflict. We only follow what the consensus of sources, once properly read beyond the headlines, say. See the prior discussions. Borgenland (talk) 01:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

{ { félig védett szerkesztés | | válaszolt= nem } } { { subst:trim | 1 = Harmadik Szudánipolgárháború

.   

)

}} 31.46.139.165 (talk) 05:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia, not Magyar. Please submit your request in appropriate language. Borgenland (talk) 05:35, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023 (3)

--Totz matez (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Totz matez (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

See multiple prior discussions - no one is calling this event the "Third (nor fourth, fifth or nth) Sudanese civil war". Pincrete (talk) 05:56, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Move Request from "2023 Sudan Conflict" to "War in Sudan (2023)" or "Sudan War (2023)"

Due to major news organizations calling it a war. This includes: Reuters, AP, Washington Post, France 24, and many others. Also the amount of casualities and refugees exceed "conflict" level. CatmanBw (talk) 06:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

misplaced at Special:Permalink/1173250155 – robertsky (talk) 07:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)