Talk:Bubblegum music

Teenagers

Should all references to "teenagers" in the modern bubblegum pop section be changed to "pre-teens" since the age range of teenagers is 13-19 and most listeners of this music are in the 10-12 age range. Perhaps "younger teenagers" would suffice, because I seriously doubt that 15-19 year olds listen to this type of music much these days. 142.151.156.113 16:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC) In some countries teens in the 15-19 age group listen to bubblegum pop. But in the U.S and the UK it's mainly 5-12 year olds. Generally 5-10 year olds. I'm school-age and I have to say that after 10 everyone either goes 'chav', listening to rap, crunk and R&B, or 'emo', raving about My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy and Panic! At The Disco. I know they're not 'emo', they're pop-punk, but those kids self-identify as emo, so let them be emo. In the 90s and 80s I guess it was more socially acceptable for teens to like bubblegum. Anyway.Teens has been changed to pre-teens by now, as it should be.212.139.171.139 18:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• This article refers to current as well as historic music. As such, the target age range has changed over time. Do not change all "teen" to "pre-teen" - pre-teens were generally not purchasers of music in the 1960s and 1970s as compared to today. --MrLou 00:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lemonpipers, etc.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about this subject to be able to integrate much more into this article, but there are a couple things that I think might be worth adding:

• The Lemon Pipers. They were an example of a band that wanted to record psychedelic music, but they had no artistic control over their recordings and were more or less forced to record bubblegum music.

• The discussion about the Ramones is interesting, and I seem to recall that some of the New Wave bands like the Cars and the Talking Heads were also influenced by 60s bubblegum. Who knows for sure? -- soulpatch

The original article was utterly and ridiculously POV (and a rather small minority one at that, at least within critical circles), describing gangsta rap and grunge as a blight, implying that the entire New Wave genre was little more than colorful clothes and wacky hair, describing the Clash as party-poopers. Most contentious was the idea that the Ramones are a bubblegum band--I can see how someone who doesn't particularly understand punk music, deconstructionism and modern art might make that claim, but seriously... The Cars and the Talking Heads, and the Beatles and David Bowie and Depeche Mode and plenty of other acts are influenced by bubblegum, but that is a far cry from being bubblegum. Taking that to the logical extreme, Marilyn Manson plays the blues and Tupak sang doo-wop. Anyway, I know you didn't write the original, soulpatch, I'm not trying to blame you or anything. I'm just venting because it seriously irked me.

I've never heard of the Lemon Pipes, but that situation is not unique. If I remember correctly, Tiffany was the same way and plenty of bands were pushed towards the mainstream by their record company, if not into outright bubblegum. Both of your comments could make an excellent addition to the article, though I'm not sure the Ramones bit applies to many bands besides the Ramones (maybe some of the later American hardcore punk). In any case, an in depth discussion of where bubblegum comes from, who makes it and who listens to it would be very interesting. Tokerboy 04:08 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

The Lemon Pipers had one big hit, "Green Tambourine". They had a minor followup hit with "Rice is Nice". soulpatch

Check out these liner notes on the Lemon Pipers that I found from Google: scroll down about halfway the page. http://www.scrammagazine.com/linernotes.html

soulpatch

Interesting--I think I have heard "Green Tambourine". The name sounds vaguely familiar. The liner notes are pretty interesting -- a "cohesive bubblegum album" -- time to see if I can download some. Tokerboy 04:37 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

• The Talking Heads certainly were, especially by the band The 1910 Fruitgum Company. Compare "1, 2, 3, Red Light" to anything from Talking Heads: 77. You will understand what I am talking about. As for the Cars, I can't hear that influence in their music, although it might be there amongst the Velvet Underground and Suicide-inspired music. -- Two halves

The introduction to the Cars "Just What I Needed" is exactly the same as The Ohio Express's "Chewy Chewy" 69.114.117.103 04:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (EK)

• • 1960s "Bubblegum" was based on some of the British Invasion acts like The Dave Clark Five and, especially, The Troggs, whose records served

as a blueprint for Kasenatz-Katz. Also, some UK glam rock like [[Gary Glitter]] and the early songs of Sweet, such as "Funny Funny", qualify as bubblegum, and are the missing link between The Ohio Express and The Ramones.

Removed

I removed:

Its original target audience has often been identified as the Baby Busters born roughly between the launch of Sputnik and the Apollo 11 moon landing, who would go on to embrace disco and, after that New Wave music, in the late 1970s and 1980s.

Because I'm not sure what the point of it is. The article already explains the target age demographic of bubblegum, and I have no idea what "original" means here... Tuf-Kat 17:14, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

Quote?

What is that "famous quote about pornography" (Nomeata 02:02, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Misfits?

Anyone want to talk about the bubblegum pop present in The Misfit's singalong choruses? I think that would serve as an interestingly dark-yet-poppy counterpoint to the happy pop-punk of the Ramones. ---

Svengali

What's a "svengali-producer" and where does the term come from?--Theloniouszen 19:47, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

It means a controlling producer who is the main creator of the record. In a pop-rock context it was first applied to Phil Spector. I would not consider Spector's records in his early to mid 1960s heyday to be bubblegum, even though some of them have bubblegum elements ( [[Bob B. Soxx and the Blue Jeans]], and The Crystals' "Da Doo Ron Ron" would come to mind. ) Such elements were quite normal in pop music in the first half of the sixties, and they are merely a stylistic convention. Perhaps the article should mention how much early 1960s pop-rock did predate bubblegum, and how bubblegum in some ways was a return to the pre-Beatles status quo. Or how much of Elvis Presley's mid-1960s output - agreed universally upon as his creative nadir - would fall into the bubblegum category. Or how some British Invasion acts like Herman's Hermits and Freddie and the Dreamers were for all practical purposes bubblegum acts even though they preceded Kasenatz-Katz and the Monkees. Etc. etc. etc.

Rewrite

I did some massive re-wording of the whole article, but it still needs a little help. Counter-points need to be added in some areas and more references are needed.

2000s section

This section needs a lot of help. I am not sure the impact and aspects of bubblegum pop in the 2000s can be accurately described yet. I wanted to delete this section alltogether, but decided to leave it as some kind of starting point.--Mattarata 03:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

• I've copyedited it (and removed the notice, the rest of the article seemed to be fine). The factual accuracy stuff I leave to someone actually academically interested in pop music. It seemed to me that the relevance of pop punk and American idol to bubblegum pop might be rather dubious, but music genres are fluid by nature and can easily mean different things to different people. --Last Malthusian 15:30, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Indeed. I don't see where Carrie Underwood would be considered bubblegum (more like contemporary country/contemporary Christian). Or maybe I'm just stuck back in the days of the Archies, Andy Kim and Tony Burrows.Jaguara 01:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The majority of BOTH the 1990s and 2000s sections should be MOVED or deleted because they largely consist NOT of Bubblegum, but rather of Teen idols, "boy bands" and "pop princesses" which belong on the Teen Pop page. I listened to clips from many of the the artists referenced, and they are more of the manufactured teen pop variety. If anyone objects, please explain why you believe these are Bubblegum Pop artists rather than Teen Pop artists. I'll wait a week or two before making the changes. MrLou 05:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted some of the 2000s section- it was full of music that isn't bubblegum at all whatsover. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.24.59 (talk) 19:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

• All of this stuff that's not strictly (or even largely) Bubble-Gum Pop should be edited out. This article has lost its meaning because too many artists who arguably do NOT fit the genre have been included. Perhaps a separate page "Bands influenced by Bubble-Gum Pop" or "ultra-commercial music/boybands and pop princesses" or "music my little sister/brother liked that I hate" et cetera. My suggestion for a starting point: the majority of the sections: 2000s, 1990s and 1980s need to go on a separate linked page "Post Bubble-Gum Pop". Contributors NEED TO reference the definition of Bubble-Gum Pop given in the intro section, AND give a song title as example if you feel the addition of a band is essential, i.e. , the 1980s 1990s 2000s+ sections should cite Artist-Title combinations that clearly meet the genre definition, since none of the bands currently listed are Bubble-Gum Pop per se. They may be ULTRA-commercial, appeal to young girls or boys, and have a charismatic, airbrushed front-person, but that doesn't make the artist "Bubble-Gum Pop" (but it might make them Elvis). If they have one single that meets the genre, does that make them a "Bubble-Gum Pop" act? No. However, if the majority of their hits (assuming they have more than one) are in the genre, I could see including them on the "Post" page. Historically, I believe most of the acts in this genre departed with the advent of FM radio (or more importantly, the decline of music on AM). Effective super-marketing of boy-bands, pop princesses and the like arose after the advent of cable tv, but these typically fit R&B/Dance/Pop genres better. Polished commercial pop-punk is not Bubble-Gum Pop either, its pop-punk. Sorry, same with power-pop. Who's with me? --MrLou 01:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I tried a few times to change/delete some of the stuff that is obviously not bubblegum, or rather influenced by bubblegum, but it kept getting reverted. Nukleoptra 12:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Confused

""Yummy Yummy Yummy" by The Ohio Express. With its double entendre title and arrogant delivery, the song was a smash hit."

How is "Yummy Yummy Yummy" a double entendre? And how is its delivery arrogant? it used to say the delivery was snotty, and I thought snotty was a poor word choice--Mattarata 17:49, 18 September 2005 (UTC) -- Cleaned up the 'double entendre' reference (couldn't figure that one either... "Yummy Yummy Yummy" is pretty single-entendre to me) with a simple reference to its chart position. Jason 18:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe the word "snotty" was meant to mean "nasal" (an imprecise use of the word I believe) and not "arrogant." If you listen to the song you will readily hear how nasal Joey Levine's vocal delivery is.

--Reluctantpopstar 09:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The double entendre lyrics, an important element of the original bubblegum era, mixed the sweetness of candy with the sweetness of sex, so the songs appealed to pre-pubescent children on one level and adults on another. This is borne out by the songs "Chewy Chewy" and "Sugar Sugar" being used over the years in commercials for candy bars and breakfast cereals (such as Quaker's Chewy Granola Bars.) --Reluctantpopstar 09:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"My boy lollipop"... BTW, I heard one old song once going something like "Give me more, more, more of that bubblegum muisc", basically through the whole song. Does someone know more about this?

85.226.122.205 02:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC) This song is "Bubblegum Music" by The Rock and Roll Double Bubble Trading Card Company of Philadelphia 19141. That last number is supposed to be a zip code, not a year. (I think I have the name right --- it's really long) This single was originally released on Buddah Records 1969, and was a psuedonym for the studio songwriters behind The Strangeloves. It's available on several compilation CDs.

One of the main themes of the book mentioned in the article article by Kim Cooper and David Smay , Bubblegum Music is the Naked Truth: The Dark History of Prepubescent Pop from the Banana Splits to Britney Spears, Feral House 2001 ISBN 0922915695 is the hidden sexual nature of the music. They also go into many of the controversies of this page such as the bubble influences of The Ramones. 13:25, 22 July 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Priorities

OK, I have one large bone to pick with this article, aside from the smaller text-related stuff... Why is there a whole section on the Ramones - who were most definitely a great band, but who were merely influenced by bubbblegum pop - and barely a sentence or two about the Bay City Rollers, who were bubblegum through and through? Perhaps there should be a page concerning bubblegum influence in punk; I'd splash the Ramones all over that. But really I'd only give them a slight mention here. Jason 18:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Mark Lanegan

Mark Lanegan's album Bubblegum has absolutely nothing to do with bubblegum music, one would know if one had listened to it.

Japan

No mention of influence on Japanese pop. I don't know enough to write it myself, but there must be plenty to say. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC) I'll do some research tonight. I know for a fact that in Japan and in some cases China there's a load of bubblegum. Nearly all of it's bubblegum. Teens there adore it. Dead Or Alive, for exxample, a 1980s band who worship the synthesiser, have had 18 number ones over there, and the singer is an icon. 212.139.171.139 18:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Suzi Quatro

Suzi Quatro was anonymously cut from the list of Chinn/Chapman acts. Is there a reason for this? - Jmabel | Talk 04:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

No response after a week, I'm restoring. - Jmabel | Talk 19:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Where does the term "Bubblegum Pop" come from? One early song that actually refers to bubblegum specifically (and not to music that would be described that way), and which certainly captures the "sound" we might think of as "bubblegum pop" would be the 1970's hit "Pin the Tail on the Donkey", by the Newcomers:

"It started back when we were were young; pigtails and bubblegum..."

Are there any earlier pieces that might be credited as the source of this phrase? —This unsigned comment was added by 40.0.40.10 (talk • contribs) 16 March 2006.

I don't think the term came from a song, I think it came from critics (or at least writers about music: rock criticism was in its infancy in the late 1960s). The term was well established long before 1970. - Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"lots of ad-libbing"?

Recently added to the list of characteristics: "lots of ad-libbing". I think this is wrong, and would like to see either a citation or a clear set of examples. In my experience, most bubblegum pop is rather precisely arranged, and leaves little or no room for ad libs. In particular, the Kasenetz-Katz and Chinn-Chapman recordings seem to me to be very producer-driven, with the bands being little more than a means to fulfill the producer's vision. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I see someone has removed this before I got around to it. Thanks! - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The Veronicas?

Can someone please explain to me why The Veronicas would be considered as bubblegum? And I thought bubblegum pop as that we know from the late 90's is dead, being replaced by the more urban feel pop now. Yelly.telus.14 05:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Modern Bubblegum?

I don't have time or inclination to edit this, but there's a raft of bands listed from the 90's onward who's 'bubblegum' status is doubtful at best. It seems to me that, somewhere along the text, the concept of 'bubblegum' got replaced with 'saccarin pop', which isn't really the same thing. How do the songs used on American Idol qualify as bubblegum, for instance? They don't, to me, but like I said, I don't really care enough to edit this.Eaglizard 11:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Emo??!?!?!

How is Emo even remotely related to Bubblegum? The target audience is only a small part. Bubblegum is more of the light-hearted simple music styles with "happy" themes than anything else. --Mattarata 15:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Gwen Stefani?

Is Gwen Stefani bubblegum? Like her song Luxurious sounds like it to me.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by -Anthony- (talk • contribs) 25 June 2006.

Clearly clean pop-rock, but I'd say that too many of her songs have substantive lyrics to be true bubblegum. - Jmabel | Talk 01:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think she's proper, 100 per cent bubblegum, but she is certainly influenced by it. She adores early 80s Madonna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Influenced, yes. But you'll need to cite for that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge Bubblegum Dance and Bubblegum pop

It seems that, even if these two may not necessarily be exactly the same thing, there is a great deal of overlap between them, and/or ambiguity over what would constitute "bubblegum pop" and "bubblegum dance" precisely, so I suspect covering all bases in one article would make more sense. ~ Matticus78 22:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Merge: agreed. (|-- UlTiMuS ^{( U | T | C [] M | E )} 22:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• I don't really think Bubblegum Dance should be merged into the Bubblegum Pop article because, even though they do have a few similarities, they are really quite different and should have separate articles that can be added to and developed more. Bubblegum Dance is a type of eurodance rather than pop, and the bands mentioned in the pop article don't really have much in common with the ones in the dance one. Maybe we could just add a reference in the introduction of each article linking to each other, and possibly one in the eurodance article as well that will link to the bubblegum dance article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgandrews (talk • contribs)

• Remember to sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) so users discussing can see who has made what comments. Thank you. ~ Matticus78 08:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Do Not Merge Without more information as to exactly what Bubblegum dance is I have a hard time agreeing that it should be merged with Bubblegum pop. The bubblgum dance article gives virtually no information as to the styles or moves of the dance. Though I agree that cross-linking may be appropriate. --Mattarata 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Do Not Merge "Bubblegum Dance" appears to be a separate genre.MrLou 06:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I don't even think there is such a thing as "Bubblegum Dance." I'd like some citations. Even though the group Aqua does combine elements of both dance music and a bubblegum style, that doesn't mean they necessarily invented a new genre. DO NOT MERGE.

• DO NOT MERGE- Dance is tottally seperate from Pop.

• Do Not Merge - two distinct genres.PaulLev 08:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Confusing Teen Idol music with Bubblegum

The main problem with this article is confusing Teen Idol acts with bubblegum. For one thing the appeal is to a different age group. The boybands from the late 1990's played a mostly R&B oriented style , Kelly Clarkson is now a critically acclaimed pop influenced hard rock vocalist. The lyrics are not chewy gooey. 13:54 22 July 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Hmm. The lyrics of bubblegum were not always "chewy gooey": "Quick Joey Small" leaps to mind; Ram Jam's cover of Leadbelly's "Black Betty" also has some bubblegum elements in the arrangement, I think. I won't comment on the present-day stuff. - Jmabel | Talk 00:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of David Cassidy and Leif Garrett article mentions as well as several 1980's and later acts mentioned in the article that I feel are or were primarly teen idol acts and not bubblegum. 03:34, 28 July 2006 (Ed Kollin)

I would agree with these comments, and would suggest that, with few exceptions, "bubblegum pop" is an historic genre. If true, then instead of trying to portray "bubblegum pop" as an enduring genre, the article should reflect how the genre has influenced subsequent artists of differing genres, with specific song examples in evidence. MrLou 16:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Bubblegum in 2006

What is bubblegum in 2006?. The Bratz although marketed to children uses teen themes. My 6 year old niece listens to many old songs of many syles that have been reworked for childrens listining. I guess you could use some TV theme songs from Nick at Nite. The big problem is that we are in a different era. When me and my cohorts listened played our bubblegum records on our 45 RPM record players back in 1968 we were 11 or 12 years old.We (or at least I) did not get the hidden sexual meanings. Most 11 or 12 years today would get them. Besides the Ohio Express would be totally lame to a Nentendo playing 10 year old. My 10 year old nephew listens to Linkin Park. In 1968 Bubblegum was marketed to 11 year old boys AND girls. Today everything is completly segmented (11 year old girl who is shy, lives in a Midwest upper middle class suburb who bought certain products when she was six) 14:06, 22 July 2006 (Ed Kollin)

I am going to answer my own question. The answer is High School Musical. Almost every reference I googled used the word bubblegum. I added a few sentences about this in the main article. 01:25, 15 2006 (Ed Kollin)

Ed - I am not sure that High School Musical is Bubblegum Pop - Please take a look at the Teen Pop genre, I think it belongs there.MrLou 05:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Your reaction was my first reaction. As I said above I googled "High School Musical" with bubblegum and got 9000+ hits. Although the characters in the musical are teenagers the audience watching them is not the swooning 13 year olds associated with teen pop. Many children look up to and want to imitate teenagers. 69.114.117.103 06:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

Bands vs Songs, POV, and the 80s

I. Associate Songs with the genre, NOT bands. Here's why: Perhaps we can agree that "genre" is associated primarily with "song" (title). When an artist consistantly releases songs in a particular genre, we associate the artist (or perhaps a particular "Album") with the genre (or vice-versa if the artist originates or impacts the genre). However, for a variety of reasons, including marketing, many artists release albums that contain songs that differ in genre. So it becomes difficult to qualify a band as being "bubblegum pop", unless that is the genre of the substantial majority of their songs. Therefore, to make this article more meaningful (and avoid disputes over whether a band is "bubblegum pop"), I would suggest we give songs as examples of the genre and leave the bands' genres out of the equation unless they only released "bubblegum pop".

II. POV still seems disparaging to this genre. The "Origins" section needs work to show the positive view of "bubblegum pop", i.e. uplifting, "fun", and whatever else those who embrace it say. It's not just commercial; it's commercial for a reason!

III. The 80s. This bit about hair bands is problematic in both grammer and content. It also seems disparaging and sexist to me, so I am going to delete it if no one objects. Otherwise, examples of particular "hair band" songs meeting the criteria given earlier in the article would be more useful in showing the influence of the genre. "Jump" comes to mind as a "bubblegum pop" lyric, yet the song sounds nothing like "bubblegum" to me. MrLou 07:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Three weeks and no one objects - I'm deleting the bit about hair bands. Also adding a bit about bubblegum pop hits released by artists not known for "bubblegum pop". MrLou 01:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Origins Section

This section should be split into separate Origins and Criticism sections 69.114.117.103 09:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

Gwen Stafani's "Wind It Up"

I think it should be in and here are two reviews of the many references calling it bubblegum [1],[2]. The question I do have about mentioning the song is that the song is to overtly sexual. 69.114.117.103 20:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC) (Ed Kollin)

abba and olivia newton john

a more serious side to pop? are you kidding me on? 217.42.160.208 15:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Amrican Idol

I deleted the paragraphs on the Pussycat Dolls and American Idol. Sorry whoever went to the trouble of typing it all up, but I don't think they're bubblegum pop. A couple of songs maybe, but not enough to be featured in the article really.

Latin Market additions

These additions do right a wrong but as with anything else citings are needed Edkollin 05:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Hardly a Credible Topic

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, this whole entry is just plain daft and shouldn't even be here. Pointless at best, misleading at worst.

The term 'bubblegum pop' might, at a stretch, warrant a mention in a dictionary, to indicate that it is a colloquialism, essentially derogatory, to express the view that some commercially-produced popular music, aimed at youngsters, lacks any particular artistic or intellectual merit. But that is about all it needs.

It does not appear to require this lengthy article, which seems to be giving contributors excuse to arbitrarily mention any number of artists and songs they feel fit the description. The reasons for specifying particular songs are tenuous, and attempts to chart a history and evolution of bubblegum pop, as if it has a distinct musical style and structure, are silly. To be frank, the term is pretty meaningless.

The apparent depth of the entry is tending to give importance to the topic as if it were a bona-fide musical genre. This can only be made worse as more people add to the litany of songs they consider to be bubblegum pop.

There is a danger that some readers might be overly influenced by the content, assuming it to be the product of serious research when, in reality, it is just a concoction of personal opinion.

A serious scholar of music history could justifiably delete the whole lot and replace it with a much more condensed and pithy definition, without all the self-important bloat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.169.52.254 (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

• This article was originally more condensed with enough examples and covered the genre through its demise in the 1970s. See my intended first step under the rewrite topic above. --MrLou 01:09, 14 April 2007 (UTC)