Wikipedia talk:Spoiler/Archive 13: Difference between revisions

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Unacceptable alternatives

What about reasoning why those "Unacceptable alternatives" are unacceptable??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.165.250.10 (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

I thought the reasoning was explained well enough. Which one are you unsure about? — CharlotteWebb 20:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If you just would have let me save {{endspoiler}} then it would display fine, kee jerk reaction, let me finish. See User:Drini/sandbox to see what I'm trying t oachieve. Spoilers collapsed by default so people won't see them if they don't want to. -- drini ^[meta:]_[commons:] 21:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Pages displayed wrong for a few seconds between saving {{spoiler}} and {{endspoiler}}. CSS hack cant' be turned on/off on the fly, Wikipedia:NavFrame does. So if you wanna see spoilers, click on "show". I did NOT break half of wikipedia pages, it was jsut that {{endspoiler}} saved a few seconds before {{spoiler}} and therefore in the meantime pages rendered wrong. Gee.. -- drini ^[meta:]_[commons:] 21:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Reading this conversation when all the Template:tls were mistyped as Template:trs was quite funny. --tjstrf talk 23:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggested complete change

To save this page from MFD, I suggest the German spoiler policy (this is a translation by me and babelfish, with adaptations by me):

When discussing creative works, e.g. books, music, computer games, TV series or films, then an encyclopedia's task is to give a summary of the work and its place in the overall field. Thus, it is natural that the action of a book or a film will be described and discussed in full.

Many books or films lose their attraction, however, if too many details or the ending are revealed before they are read or seen. So it became common on the Internet to put before such descriptions a spoiler warning.

In encyclopedias, however, this is rare. In the German language Wikipedia, after long discussions, consensus developed not to include spoiler warnings, and to remove existing ones. The section which contains a description of the plot should, however, always be clearly denoted, for example by the heading ==Plot summary== or ==Synopsis==.

- David Gerard 22:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Regardless if we have spoiler warnings or not, there should still be some form of spoiler guideline, even if all it says is to use or not use warning, and to not remove spoilers for simply being spoilers. -- Ned Scott 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The German wording seems okay to me. --Tony Sidaway 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, sounds like a good compromise, plot details go into a section that is clearly titled. --Iamunknown 03:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
In the light of the massive amount of anti-spoiler-tag feeling on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning, and agreement her on David's suggestion, I've been bold and adapted the German wording to this enclopedia and inserted the result in place of the old guideline. --Tony Sidaway 03:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

And I've reverted that. It's really messed up that people just go and ignore all the points brought up in the past simply because a little bit of time has passed. I know consensus can change, but this is more like strong-arming the change. -- Ned Scott 03:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's fine to revert. I was just being bold. We now have a concrete suggestion in the history of the policy page to discuss. Nobody is strong-arming, but it's clear from the MFD discussion that consensus no longer exists for the guideline as it stood, and we need to work on what to do about that. --Tony Sidaway 03:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The concrete suggestion was right here in the talk page. Putting it in the article was unnecesary, and yes, smacks of strong-arming the change.

Feelings are strong enough -- pro- as well as anti- --without that. Goldfritha 03:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No Wikipedia is a wiki and there was certainly strong enough consensus to support a bold edit. No harm in reverting it either. --Tony Sidaway 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Now the point is that we now have a proposed new version to discuss:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Spoiler_warning&oldid=131208283

Whoever is edit warring please calm down and stop it. Whatever we end up deciding on will be the result of consensus. --Tony Sidaway 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, based on the discussion so far on various venues (including MFD and the mailing list), I think there is an emerging consensus that:

Article structure should not be dictated by the need for spoiler warnings, especially if a balanced encyclopedic approach requires that they be mentioned in the introduction.
Spoilers should not be used for anything but recent works; slapping {{spoiler}} templates on Shakespeare and the Bible makes us look silly.

If any commenters here disagree with the above two statements, please explain why. *** Crotalus *** 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Historical tag

I believe that the appropriate measure is to tag this page as historical. Even though it was prematurely closed, the MFD attracted substantial comment, and the evidence is strong that a consensus of users either wanted to delete the page entirely, or else deprecate it as historical. I think there is obviously no consensus for keeping the page the way that it is, as the MFD discussion indicates. A strong majority of users are dissatisfied with current spoiler policy. Crotalus horridus 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We've seen MFDs and AFDs swing in a matter of days, so it's hardly accurate to say that less than a day's worth of MFD was anything near an accurate consensus. -- Ned Scott 03:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Then you should have left the MFD open, so a fuller consensus could be reached. Crotalus horridus 03:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Unsuitable forum.

There has been a lot of passionate support for the template; unless there is a reason to believe it vanished, the less than a day has to be presumed to be the cause.

Note that the people who want the change generally are the ones who act first; responses come after. Goldfritha 03:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we should continue the discussion here. --Tony Sidaway 03:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

MfD is back up in part because of MfD talk page. --Iamunknown 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

MfD closing is disturbing

I find it ridiculous that the MfD was closed. Hate to say it, but the MfD was an infinitely better method of handling the situation. First, it's more clearly advertised then a conversation on a talkpage. Second, it gains the appeal of a wider range of editors by displaying it in multiple ways. Third, it gauges consensus easily. Just because it violated protocol doesn't mean common sense should be used. IAR really needs to be renamed to "Use Common Sense". I'm confident those numerous "delete" !votes will not be drowned out so easily. — Deckill er 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, its back up so no more disturbance is needed. --Iamunknown 03:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
If someone reverts it again, I'm contemplating pasting the entire discussion here. Nulling consensus building by hiding behind policy is appalling. — Deckill er 03:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- Not surprisingly, a user has reverted once again. We have a policy called WP:IAR for a reason. Streamlining community discussion as a means to improving Wikipedia is still improving Wikipedia. Again, circumventing a large delete swing by hiding behind policy isn't good. — Deckill er 03:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting the feeling

That not everyone is on the same talk page... -- Ned Scott 03:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for protected page edit

Please could someone remove the MFD tag because that discussion has been closed as inappropriate for discussion of a guideline, and moved to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. Perhaps the tag should be replaced by a note that discussion of the guideline is continuing on that moved page. --Tony Sidaway 13:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

done. Kusma (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Closed again to move to an RFC.. heh. -- Ned Scott 18:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

With the TfD closed...

How will we notify the people reading the pages with spoiler templates? 168.229.22.213 14:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler warnings and netiquette

The major problem, not just with this guideline, but with {{spoiler}} tag itself, and the reason why it keeps getting supporters even though it's flatly unencyclopedic and goes against most of our other policies on content warnings, comes, I think down to the first edit, which inadvertently says why spoiler warnings are bad policy that keeps surviving. From the very first edit:

Wikipedia is an attempt to write an encyclopedia.

...

It is traditional netiquette for this discussion to be surrounded with warnings of "spoilers".

This is, in a nutshell, the problem with spoiler warnings and the reason people keep insisting on adding them. Spoiler warnings have no place in an encyclopedia; but people are simply used to seeing them on message boards, in internet discussion forums, on Usenet... There are many compelling reasons for including spoiler warnings on message boards, but none of these have anything to do with making an accurate, professional encyclopedia. Worrying about how an article will affect someone's enjoyment of a book or movie is, basically, unencyclopedic; the logical extension of spoiler warnings would be to say that we can't report critical opinions of books and movies, even when widespread or noteworthy, because it might make it harder for people to enjoy them. Likewise, netiquette does not apply to Wikipedia content, and, indeed, a concerted effort should be made to avoid having netiquette and other internet-biased views influence article space. I think that this policy should be simple, straight, and to the point: "Spoiler warnings are always unapproprate for an encyclopedia, and should not be used in articles." --Aquillion 18:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

An intelligent analysis. Very nice, and I agree. — Deckill er 18:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is not quite the same as every other encyclopedia, is it? We cover a great many more subjects, of a different character, than others, and present information in a different way. The idea that because other encyclopedias don't have spoiler warnings, we shouldn't either, doesn't hold water. Maybe we shouldn't cover subjects trivial or unimportant enough to include in a real encyclopedia, either? Or include dynamic media, which doesn't appear in a print encyclopedia? Demi ^T/_C 20:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

My concern was with new users who often will exclude or remove spoilers when they are appropriate. But, to be honest, it's not a major concern. -- Ned Scott 18:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Demi, the issue is that the reason why it is always unencyclopedic to employ spoiler warnings applies equally to Wikipedia: The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide accurate and useful information, as clearly and directly as possible. That is all. Aside from necessary legal concerns, there are no other issues worth considering in writing an encyclopedic article. When people start making arguments like "This will annoy--" or "This could ruin someone's day--" or "This might hurt someone's enjoyment of--", they've gone wildly offbase. That is appropriate for a webforum, perhaps; but it has no place in an encyclopedia. Spoiler warnings are an artifact of this flawed way of looking at Wikipedia; the concerns they are made to address are simply not of any relevance to us at all. Whether or not it ruins someone's day to learn the ending of the book, or even whether or not (as some people have threatened) they stop reading Wikipedia to avoid spoiling the book, have nothing to do with the way we write articles, and should never, to the slightest degree, be used to influence our policies and guidelines on writing articles. Wikipedia is not "the free messageboard anyone can consult for a fun look at a book they were thinking of reading." It isn't a review service, or a political party that has to worry about who's going to vote for it, or anything like that. It is an encyclopedia, and that means that when you click on the Wikipedia page for a book or play, you should get a complete, immediate, straightforward description--a listing of what it's famous for, who kills who, what the major plot twists are, and so on, preferably with the key points in the introduction. If a book or play is famous for a particular plot twist, that should definitely be in the introduction; and, for clarity's sake, that introduction plainly cannot be broken up. That is why spoiler warnings fall completely and irreconcilably outside of Wikipedia's scope; that is why, I think, in the long run they are going to be removed completely, and policy rewritten to (at least) strongly discourage them. --Aquillion 05:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler removal

Several editors are systemically removing spoiler warnings -- from everywhere as far as I can tell. At least one explicitly declared that he does not care about that the use of the spoiler tag is disputed. (See Talk:A Wizard of Earthsea#Spoiler warning.)

This sort of end-run around the policy does not bode well for the end results of the dispute, if they are not reined in. Goldfritha 00:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Editing an article isn't an "end-run around policy". It's editing! It's what a wiki is for. Now please stop edit warring with the multiple editors who happen to disagree with you about the appropriateness of the tags you keep putting at the top of clearly labelled "Synopsis", "Plot summary" and similar sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Sidaway (talk • contribs)

No, they are just using common sense. Think of it this way. The first section is "plot summary". Readers immediately see the wall of text. Two major reasons why spoiler tags are not only laughable, but unnecessary by any definition of the term in that situation. — Deckill er 00:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Then I will dare say you will have no objections when, in a month or two, other editors have attacks of common sense that spoiler warnings are appropriate to all sections with spoilers and then go and put them everywhere. Goldfritha 00:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not exactly common sense, because they aren't seeing where they are "needed" (although I'm in the deletion camp). There's a difference between removing poorly inserted spoiler warnings and adding them everywhere without thinking. — Deckill er 01:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

How do you intend to persuade them that your view is common sense? Given that they are as entitled to the tactic of using "common sense" as you are. Goldfritha 01:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It would result dropping a spoiler tag on every "spoiler" on Wikipedia, even if it's common knowledge like the suicides in Romeo and Juliet, or in sections already labeled "plot summary". We don't have signs reminding us that "red light means stop", but we do have signs in those situations where right turns on red could be dangerous. We don't have signs reminding us what a "line" is at the grocery store. Nor do we have the definition of the word "stop" below the stop sign. People can read. A plot summary is a plot summary. Thin point, but the fact is that people will anticipate things, regardless of the scenerio. That is the essense of common sense. — Deckill er 01:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with "common sense" is that everybody has their own definition. To paraphrase Meta:Don't be a dick -- if a significant number of reasonable people differ with your definition of common sense, whether bluntly or politely, the odds are good that you are not entirely in the right. See also WP:POINT. It's clearly inappropriate to rampage around taking out spoiler warnings (at least the ones that don't immediately, clearly violate some of the guidance on the policy page, like a warning before the Plot subhead) when the dispute tag has already been applied. 144.51.111.1 14:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Whoever the editors are who are simply deleting spoiler warning because 'they can' - I would ask them to stop and discuss these edits on the pages themselves. Deciding something quickly (between only a few editors) on this page and then surfing thru WP and making changes to pages these editors harldy care about is rather rude and a bit presumptious. I am another voice asking these editors to stop. I am certainly not part of their hastily assembled "concensus"Smatprt 03:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

And did the page editors at the time the warnings were put in decide through consensus then too? See the problem? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. And the problem is that the proper location to discuss this matter is here. They should not be enforcing rules that are not part of the guidelines. Goldfritha 03:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be mistaking editing articles for "enforcing rules". --Tony Sidaway 04:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If you check, you'll see that there have been discussions on many talk pages. No good reasons have been advanced for including these extra tags after, to take an example from some of the articles that you edit, the "Synopsis" header on an article about a Shakespeare play. What we're saying is quite reasonable: if you must add this bold, intrusive message to an article, justify it. Explain what the article loses without it. The Synopsis is clearly marked. What else does it need? --Tony Sidaway 03:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where this idea that removing redundant spoiler warnings from sections whose titles clearly indicates that they contains spoilers is somehow an end run around policy. Exactly which policy is being "end run" around?

But the recent RfC does give an good indication that there is a consensus support to such removing redundant spoiler warnings and warnings from historical and classical works of fiction. --Farix (Talk) 12:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused on all of this, so I'm just going to mention my take on this whole thing. I feel that Spoiler Tags are unnecessary and have only caused a lot of debate. This is an online encyclopedia, people come here to learn new information and they should expect something to be revealed. By telling people that they might find some information in an encyclopedia that might reveal something is pointless and completely defeats the purpose of it. It's a direct violation of Wikipedia:Not censored and is already stated in big bold writing in the Wikipedia Content Disclaimer. I don't see any of the other things on that list placed on every article on Wikipedia. The tag is only really used underneath headers that say Storyline or Plot, which really is unnecessary. I really think the tag should only be used for articles about an unreleased subject. - .:Alex:. 19:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the wiki-wide removal of spoiler tags is entirely justified and long overdue; reluctance to be bold in taking them out by the roots is what convinced numerous people to mistakenly conclude that they're acceptable, encouraged, or even required and led to this current dispute. Often they're added by one person with no discussion, and since they're made (wrongly) to look official, most other editors assume that that person knows what they're doing. It's probably a bad idea to go through and remove them without explaining it, no, not until a MfD on the {{spoiler}} template itself finally goes through, but I think that if we talk it through most people will understand why they have to go. If you're going to protest the removal of spoiler tags while this debate is ongoing, though, it has to work both ways... would you agree that no new spoiler tags should be added to any articles until a clear consensus on them is reached? --Aquillion 04:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion?

Please point out the consensus leading to the addition of the section "Where spoilers may be inappropriate". --87.189.124.195

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning shows pretty close to unanimous agreement on those particular areas. Guy (Help!) 18:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Shortcut

Please remove WP:SW from shortcuts as it redirects the the Star Wars WikiProject. - Patricknoddy^{TALK (reply here)}^|^HISTORY 20:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted the redirect change, as many talk pages and talk archives appear to still be using WP:SW to reference this page. -- Ned Scott 21:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What is classic?

"They are also generally inappropriate in respect of factual works, classic works of fiction (including films), or subjects where plot twists have been the subject of considerable external debate."

What makes a work of fiction a "classic work of fiction"? As a first approximation, does it refer to any work of fiction whose copyright has expired? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 20:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The only appropriate meaning in this context would be a work that you could expect any reader of Wikipedia to have read.

Given that Wikipedia is accessed worldwide, the suitable response would be none. Goldfritha 00:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I would reasonably assume that literary and film scholars will have a say on what works are considered classic and which are not. --Farix (Talk) 01:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If reading or studying it is considered part of a well-rounded (western?) education, I'd think that would be a good indicator. It's basically there to codify the common sense guideline of not putting a spoiler warning on Beowulf, The Epic of Gilgamesh, or Macbeth. --tjstrf talk 17:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The works of Dickens and Shakespeare, the science-fiction of Asimov and Heinlein, the films of Hitchcock and Welles. There is a good deal of agreement on what constitutes classic in these areas, I think. Guy (Help!) 18:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

@@ Line 138: / Line 138: @@
 Please point out the consensus leading to the addition of the section "Where spoilers may be inappropriate".  --[[User:87.189.124.195|87.189.124.195]]
+* [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning]] shows pretty close to unanimous agreement on those particular areas. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 18:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 ==Shortcut==