Talk:Jesus

Recent Archive log

Complete archive key

• /Archive 73 - Doctors (Finding in the Temple); Inconsistency?; Lostceasar's Issues
• /Archive 74 - Era notation vote; We have an article called "Evidence of evolution" but...; Denomination; Jesus' Family; central figure to founder; With respect to the section on Gnosticism
• /Archive 75 - I could find no other encyclopedias which denied the existence of Jesus; Forensic reconstruction?; Missing the logic; POV, "Little external documentation" about Jesus according to whom? Also, little is too vague/subjective; Wasn't Jesus Black?
• /Archive 76 - Man claims to be 2nd Coming of Jesus, Christian view, 6th century portrait, Jesus in Japan?, lack of modern historians views, trilemma, New Section Proposal: Conspiracy Theories About Jesus, African?
• /Archive 77 - Revision of Christian Views, The Great Mystery link, Inline citations, NPOV proportionality, fact of Jesus, Jesus' family, Jesus was Albanian, Scholarship, Kabbalah vs. logia of Jesus.
• /Archive 78 - Cultural effects, The Jesus Extraterrestrial Connection, Supernatural/psychic categories, intro and historicity/myth, "...was handed over by Pilate the Roman governor to be crucified," Sanders on Jesus as a Pharisee
• /Archive 79 - Nietzsche, Family genealogy, Myth, BCE/BC, Islam, Magi, Arrest, Judaism's view
• /Archive 80 - William Lane Craig debate, Non-Christian views of Jesus, scholars and the death and Resurrection of Jesus, islamic view of jesus, Jesus' title and race, error in the article, parables, The Jesus Family Tomb and James Cameron, judgement, cousin, myth, Unnecessarily implied atonement theology in intro
• /Archive 81 - Founders of religions category tag, Jesus's Character, Recent significant changes, Judaism View, Minor Edits Reverted, Featured Article Status, Possible Bias?, Atheist views section, Report for violating 3RR, Atheist views - take 2, LIBERAL BIAS, Vandalism! Help! Someone!
• /Archive 82- Muslim view on Crucifixion, Notes section may need clean up, A Torrent, judgment, slavery, POV tag?, Featured article nomination.... maybe, Sources on Jesus' life, Standardizing references, Historicity or Revisionism?
• /Archive 83

Subpage Activity Log

• Discussion on Judaism's views moved to Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus.
• Buried vs. entombed," alledged "lack of sources" archived to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro.
• New subpage created, /Historical Jesus, with several models of the historical Jesus and a list of sources.
• Baptism, blasphemy and sedition discussions moved to /2nd Paragraph Debate.
• Sudden move of Christ: discussion moved to Talk:Christ.
• Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology": moved to [Christian Mythology Talk] for relevancy reasons
• User:Andrew c/Jesus: sorting data b/w New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christian views of Jesus#Life, and Jesus#Life and teachings based on the Gospels.

For FAC status

The way I see it, the only obvious thing left to fix in this article is reference the new last sentence of the second paragraph, since there are only references to Jesus-myth types, but not to inerrantist or near-interrantist scholars, or to a reference which would just plainly indicate that neither side has many people. After that, would anyone be opposed to another FA nom, I think the last time was a bit problematic because there were a bunch of references things to fix and some weird thing about expanding mention of the Apocrypha and the Jewish Messiah which I think probably wern't appropriate, but the nom was so spur of the moment, I don't think anyone who would of known how to was ready to really respond to those criticisms :/. Homestarmy 01:32, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

If no good reference if found, we could discuss improving the previous sentence that was used - such as Very few scholars question the historical existence of Jesus, or argue for a completely mythological Jesus. ^rossnixon 02:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It occurs to me now that, technically speaking, neither the references there now nor references for the more literalist perspective would necessarily support the premise of the sentence, namely that neither side has many people on it. Is the sentence as it stands now really a very controversial assertion anyway? If not, it shouldn't need any references at all, since supposedly, inline citations in a lead should only be used for particularily controversial sentences. Homestarmy 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the sentence should read "Very few scholars believe that all ancient texts concerning Jesus are either completely accurate or completely inaccurate concerning Jesus' life, and almost none doubt his actual existence."

My main reason for this is because I've often encountered amongst teenagers and uninformed young adults the view that Jesus is some sort of myth that was completely made up. I think this addition would help dispel a commonly held fallacious belief. Jstanierm 20:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I will add it. I don't feel strongly about it, and I haven't read any previous arguments. I think it sums up the main issue. If for some reason another editor feels its unnecessary then by all means remove it.Jstanierm 20:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I still dislike these sentences, because they are essentially empty of meaning. What does "Jesus existed" mean in this context?

1. There was a person named Yeshua in Israel?
2. There was a Yeshua son of Yosef in Israel?
3. There was a Jewish teacher crucified by the Romans?
4. There was a Jewish teacher called Yeshua crucified by the Romans?
5. There was a Jewish teacher, son of Yosef and Miriam, preaching the Sermon on the Mount and later crucified by the Romans?
6. There was a Jewish teacher, son of Yosef and a virgin Miriam, preaching the Sermon on the Mount, later crucified by the Romans, who rose from the dead?

The first is more or less certain, the last will only be believed by devout Christians. But where does "Jesus existed" start? --Stephan Schulz 22:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The sentence still has the problem with the references not actually citing the entire thing anymore. Homestarmy 22:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that was bugging me was that it doesn't really seem to flow with the sentences above it. In context, how does "However, scholars do not agree about how much information on Jesus from ancient texts is accurate, and very few believe those texts to be either compleatly accurate or compleatly innacurate" sound? I really think it builds more on the idea that the first two sentences are talking about scholar's mainstream opinions on what basic information is mostly agreed upon about Jesus. Homestarmy 22:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Those are valid concerns, and your suggestion would be fine (after spell check though ;)-Andrew c ^[talk] 01:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I recommend enhancing this by including footnote [3] and also provide relevant Wiki-links, thus:

"However, scholars do not agree about how much information on Jesus from ancient texts is accurate, and very few believe those texts to be either completely accurate or completely inaccurate.[3][4]" I also have an additional reference. LotR 13:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this issue is closely tied to the section "questions of reliability" I find that section is very POV and uses weasel words, such as "various people say..." or "according to several etc.." I would like to rewrite it but I'm at work and I'll get to it later if none of you do.

I think this article in an effort to remain NPOV has become a little confusing for a reader who would be unfamiliar with Jesus. I think it's important to dispell assumptions that a. Jesus never existed and b. If Jesus existed we know nothing about that existence because its been so distorted by mythology like Santa Claus, Robin Hood, or King Arthur.

Amongst scholars, aside from a very small and radical minority there is consensus that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who lived in Palestine around the turn of the first century based on purportedly (and there's little reason to doubt their assertations) first hand records written within that same century. To an ancient scholar this is excellent source material. More than any biographical record we have of Alexander the Great all of whose contemporary biographies have been lost. Of course, people can debate the truthfulness of the documents (was there really a ressurection? were there really miracles?), but it would be nonsensical and unprecedented to assume the authors completely made him up. Jstanierm 16:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, could we implement LotR's version in the meantime? I think it would be very strange if the sentence that's live now was not called out in any future FAC's.... Homestarmy 02:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

So Jstanierm, would you be fine with someone replacing your sentence with LotR's version? Homestarmy 23:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally I don't think this should go for another candidacy until the BC/BCE tags are sorted out - it just looks silly. It's quite clear BC/AD should be used. The Muhammad article uses BCE, so why shouldn't this use BC? Please, none of the "oh but really all articles should use BCE" nonsense. If it's fair to exclusively use BCE for non-Christian religious figures, I think it's perfectly acceptable to exclusively use BC for Christian ones. Otherwise there's one rule for Christian religious articles and another one for non-Christians religious articles. John Smith's 15:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

No, we should leave this "can of worms". It's annoying visually, but does not affect the details/meaning/information value at all. ^rossnixon 02:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Then what you're saying is that articles could have colour/color all over the place and get FA status. I disagree. It is annoying visually, and it can be easily changed to BC/AD. If certain users fight over this, go to mediation or arbitration. There are various ways to resolve this matter - it's a cop-out to refuse to deal with it. John Smith's 11:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've changed it. According to WP:MOS, Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. The first contribution here was fairly major and used BC/AD. WP:MOS urges consistency inside an article - dual usage because some people have got angry in the past is not a reason to refuse consistency, especially where it is more appropriate to use a style like this here (in a primarily Christian article). You don't see people getting their way to have dual usage on the religious pages of non-Christian figures.

If you really want the page to get FA status, you need to make bold attempts like this to make the page better. If you want to keep the previous poor style because some people will fight it, then it doesn't deserve FA status. John Smith's 11:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I reverted you. It was a long process that we have done at least twice in the past (see the archives) that reached us to this compromise. Please respect the consensus. If you believe a couple of letters after a date is so important, you are welcome to try and reach a new consensus, but please don't edit without consensus on a topic that has been so controversial in the past. Discuss first, and only then if a new consensus is reached, make the appropriate changes. I hope you understand why I reverted. Thanks.-Andrew c ^[talk] 13:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand why you reverted, but I don't accept it. Wikipedia rules are quite clear. People can't hold an article to ransom because they're not happy - that essentially seems to have been what the BCE/CE brigade did in the past. They have to respect the rules, and the rules say that "when in doubt" you go to the earliest major contribution. That's what I've done, also citing the fact an important Christian article is better with the BC/AD terms.

Don't revert me - let's see how long it takes until someone else objects. John Smith's 14:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm only doing this to try to help the article get FA status - objections would be raised because of the dual terms. Certainly I couldn't support it until the matter was resolved. John Smith's 14:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm, regarding FA status. We were up for nomination back in April, see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jesus/archive2. Only a single (anonymous, mind you) editor mentioned the era notations. So, I did not get the impression that the reason we failed FAC is because of the era notation, therefore I think our efforts are better spent elsewhere. As for "Let's see how long it takes"... well the answer was 4 minutes. Really, please look at the archives to see the huge votes that took place in the past. We cannot ignore the community consensus when so many people voiced their opinions in the past. I'm going to respond to your "Wikipedia rules are quite clear" here with WP:IAR. If the community supports this notation, and it keeps the peace, then that is more important than the era notation guidelines.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, fine - let's have another discussion on it.

Virgin Birth

I think the article would be better if "immaculate conception" replaced "virgin birth" throughout... What do other editors think? Petepetepetepete 11:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Immaculate Conception does not relate to Jesus it refers to his mother - click on the link. "Virgin Birth" for Jesus is correct. -- SECisek 11:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

With respect, that's not a great answer. Jesus was the immaculate conception. Just as Mary was the virgin who gave birth. Neither refers exclusively to Mary or to Jesus. Petepetepetepete 11:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh, in theology, Immaculate Conception refers to MARY being concieved with out sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus' was a Virgin Birth, again maybe you didn't click on the links. Give them both a read. -- SECisek 12:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is the confusion:

Immaculate Conception#Common misinterpretations

--SECisek 12:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Okeydoke... at least I learnt something, keep up the good work Petepetepetepete 12:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The term "Immaculate conception" is fairly unique to Roman Catholic theology, and as previously pointed out, is subject to various misinterpretations. I have never heard nor seen it used in Protestantism. I, too, agree that "Virgin Birth" is theologically correct. It also is consistent with the Apostles' Creed and other historic creeds of Christianity. Afaprof01 05:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Some Anglicans use the term and have faith in the doctrine, but some Anglicans don't self-identify as Protestant. Virgin birth IS what you want here. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Joseph's status as Jesus' "father"

Per User Andrew C's request, my opinion is that we do a disservice to both truth and readership by sticking to the term "father." It is misleading in that it does not take into account the position of most Christians re: the Virgin Birth. I liked the most recent re-word by User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of 'Mary" And I agree with this user that it allows for multiple beliefs (assumed father, actual father, adoptive father, etc.)

The Wiki article entitled Saint Joseph takes a lot of words, but perhaps we can "borrow" the idea expressed therein:

"...according to Christian Gospel accounts and tradition, the husband of Mary and the legal father of Jesus of Nazareth, although Christian faith tradition holds that Joseph did not physically beget Jesus, but that Mary had conceived him through divine means (see Virgin Birth)."

My personal opinion about the Jesus article is that it has become so "politically correct"--trying to be all things to all people--that it has become quite sterile, far beyond encyclopedic. Irrespective of all the different connotations about Jesus, he is the Founder of Christianity, and I don't think this article needs to apologize for that. Thanks! Afaprof01 05:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

What was wrong with:

User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of 'Mary"

Seems to be all things while remaining NPOV. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying that this came up twice in the past, and it has come up before and we reached an agreement then. If editors want to change things, talk it out and if there is a consensus we can change it. I just want to stress the importance of process and discussion and consensus in such top tier article (especially when we have recently discussed this matter already). My concern is twofold with the text from the Joseph article. First it uses the term "legal" which isn't supported by the source material, and it introduces a Christian POV. Keep in mind that this is the Gospel summary section, and that we have a Christian interpretation section as well. I think the best thing is to follow the source material. Here is a proposal of mine for you to consider: The gospels mention Joseph in a few placed. They describe Joseph as "pledged to be married" to Mary (Matthew 1:17, Luke 1:27) and "husband of Mary" (Matthew 1:16, 1:18). They also describe Jesus as Joseph's son (Luke 4:22, John 1:45, 6:42), Joseph as Jesus' father (Luke 2:33, 2:48, John 6:42), and Jesus as "the son, so it was thought, of Joseph" (Luke 3:23). This way, we are simply following our sources. We are stating what the gospels say, which is the point of the section Life and teachings, as told in the Gospels. We can put other interpretations in other sections (or spinout articles).-Andrew c ^[talk] 13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I vote with User RossNixon and User SECisek: "Joseph, husband of 'Mary". It's short and "sweet," not complicated, and totally congruous with scripture and essentially uncontested. Afaprof01 17:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Martijn222's comment

My personal, proffessional opinion is that Jesus is defiantly a homeosexual, gay, he is one of those who wants to be unique. He is jealous and does not want anybody to be the same, hense the reason for against gays. Jesus was a selfish man with no heart. These are the beliefs i share with many of my colleagues in the "Jesus For Real" foundation where we use thousands of dollars to explore the theories. Go to www.jesusforreal.facts/stories.proof/for.real.com.uk for the indepth view on Jesus and his "stories" (all of which are fake). Those who disagree with me can keep there opinion to themselves because Jesus himself belives in freedom of speech. Time to say '''NO''' to Jesus and spread the word!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martijn222 (talk • contribs) 07:22, 3 August 2007.

Wikipedia is not the place to publish original research, and talk pages are not here to generally discuss the topic, but instead to discuss improving the article. -Andrew c ^[talk] 13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Converts from Judaism?

There is dispute over whether Jesus thought of himself of not being Jewish. Is this category appropriate? I think not simply because it wouldn't be neutral to take sides in the debate. The article doesn't mention Jesus' conversion anywhere either, so the category isn't congruent with the article content.-Andrew c ^[talk] 13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Jesus (assuming there is a single historical person behind the myth) almost certainly thought of himself as Jewish. Christianity as a separate religion is a later invention. Hence, Jesus could not have "converted" to Christianity, of course. And from a Christian perspective, he's one with the omniscient Father, so cannot have a belief at all - he just knows ;-) --15:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Nehemia_Gordon claims that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, and that the beginning of [23] indicates that Jesus told his disciples to "observe and do"" what Moses commanded. This would mean that Jesus saw himself not as a Christian but as the Jewish Messiah, the prophet that Moses promised in Deuteronomy [18].

From a Christian perspective, Jesus understood himself as the Jewish Messiah (and therefore was a religiously observant Jew), a role that was not only for Jews but for all nations, per Gen 22:18, Is 42:6, and Matt 28:19 (There are more verses about the Messiah than merely Deut 18 as cited by Nehemia_Gordon). The initial Christians (religious observance) were Jewish (nationality and religious observance); and time went on, the percentage of Christians who were Jewish declined, since Jewish nationality and observance were not understood to be requisites to be Christian. In short, Jesus was Jewish and fulfilled Judaism as had been foretold so that others could participate too. It would not be proper from a Christian perspective to say that Jesus "converted" to Christianity. The.helping.people.tick 02:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a dispute about whether the dating terms BC/AD should be used exclusively, or the dual use of BC/AD and BCE/CE should be used together. 14:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Some editors have claimed there is a consensus on this issue, but having reviewed the talk pages it appears it was still heavily contested, merely that no one really wanted to push the issue further. In any case, I feel that the current "compromise" was a poor one brought on by obstinant behaviour from some editors that violated Wikipedia guidelines, specifically WP:MOS.

For many years the BC/AD terms were used without problem from the start. WP:MOS says that a style established for so long shouldn't be changed without good reason. There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively. So those who wanted to insist on BCE/CE were breaking Wikipedia guidelines.

If there are still any doubts, I refer you to the opening paragraph of WP:MOS.

Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.

BC/AD was the style used by the first major contributor, so I believe it should be restored to that. It also makes much more sense given the primarily Christian nature of this article. John Smith's 14:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments

This is a non-issue. We have had a stable consensus for years to use both on this page. It was a consensus that was reached by many wikipedia editors who had put a good deal of work into the article. Why change? Instead of trying to stir up trouble oaver this, why don't you do something positive, like, read the latest books by historians or theologians about Jesus, or see if there are any new articles in the major peer-reviewed journals, and actually add valuable content? Wikipedia shouldn't be about going around pushing an agenda, it should be about dedicated research to improve article content. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, maybe you could direct me to where this "consensus" was reached. I've only found archive pages where the matter has been disputed, not approved. It would help if I read that discussion.

Second, there was a stable consensus for a lot longer before-hand. Why was it necessary to change that?

Third, please don't accuse me of trying to stir up trouble or accuse people of pushing an agenda - that is not assuming good faith. If I see an issue that should be resolved, I have a right to raise it. If you don't want to discuss it you don't have to take part in the discussion.

Fourth, other users have raised this issue before so it's clear the "consensus" is no longer a consensus, just a majority view of usual editors to this article. John Smith's 14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Great comment Slr. I want to say, John Smith's, that it is wrong to phrase the debate in terms of "BC/AD vs. BC/BCE and AD/CE". This really is a Common Era vs. Anno Domini discussion. You are presenting a false dichotomy in your opening statements. I'd also like to note that There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively is a disputed statement and is belittling the opposition. Whether their arguments are compelling enough to change is another matter, but I do not believe it is inappropriate to say that there has been "no good reason" presented in the past. I'd prefer that this RfC be withdrawn. The dating issue didn't seriously come up in our last FAC, and this discussion is likely going to stop all other progress on this article for at least the next week.-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, why is it false? The discussion is about whether to use BC/AD exclusively or the current dual approach.

I once again ask to see where the consensus was raised. Come on, help me out here and link to the discussion you're talking about. John Smith's 15:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I just realized that the link to Talk:Jesus/Archive details had been removed. Please see archives 14-17, 72, and any other archive that mentions BC/BCE.-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

And the "false" aspect is that you are giving people two options "Use Anno Domini" or "Use both" when there is a third option, "Use common era".-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrew, but can you please find me the part where it shows consensus. I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm just only finding topics where disputes took place. John Smith's 15:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. There is little chance that a better consensus will be achieved, and as such this essentially a waste of time. The current system is a bit jarring, but clear and unambiguous. FAC will have to live with it. And this is not a "Christian", but an encyclopedic article, dealing with history, sources, and various religious views about Jesus. --Stephan Schulz 15:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So why is it the only article on a major religious figure (that I know of) that uses both terms instead of one? John Smith's 15:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

All the other ones I checked use CE/BCE exclusively. Apparently some editors objected strongly to that, for reasons I strongly suspect, but have difficulty to comprehend. Using just AD/BC is unacceptable for many people, as both the AD (Year of the Lord) and the BC (Before Christ, i.e. implying Jesus is the Messiah) make implicit statements that conflict with many peoples religious (or anti-religious) beliefs. --Stephan Schulz 15:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So in that case it is fine to use one term exclusively. The question then becomes which.

If you say using just BC/AD is unacceptable to many people, I could retort by saying many people see the use of both that and BCE/CE as unacceptable on a page like this. Indeed they may see the use of BCE/CE at all as being offensive. So that argument doesn't quite wash out. More importantly, and this is the key issue, WP:MOS says that either BC/AD or BCE/CE is acceptable for use. If some people can't cope with BC/AD, they are free to not use wikipedia - the same applies to anyone who can't stand BCE/CE. I see some people have mentioned NPOV before. Again, wikipedia guidelines rather show that NPOV isn't relevant to the issue of what term to use. John Smith's 15:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the examples show that it is ok to just use CE/BCE. As for people being offended by it: Tough luck. These are neutral terms. They make no religious claims at all. So what people are offended about is that they don't get to impose their religion onto others. I have no sympathy. There is no requirement I am aware of in any religion to list dates in a religious format. There are, however, many religions that forbid acknowledgement of other gods. Indeed, a fairly strong argument can be made that "AD 1500" violates the third commandmend (by standard protestant count), and, as far as I know, some Christian groups even agree with that argument. --Stephan Schulz 06:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

One could say "tough luck" to those that don't like BC/AD. If just CE/BCE is acceptable than so is just BC/AD. WP:MOS says that either term can be used. So your argument of "neutrality" is clearly invalid. If you want to argue for a re-write of WP:MOS, be my guest. Until you get that agreement, though, you have to respect those guidelines. John Smith's 07:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how you can reject the neutrality argument. CE/BCE makes no religious claim, either for or against any particular religion. BC/AD makes several such points. The situation is not symmetric. And apparently right now, neither WP:MOS nor WP:DATE prescribe how to select a dating system - the "earliest major contributor" seems to have been dropped. Anyways, as always, common sense and WP:IAR apply. Common sense and experience tell us that this is a useless discussion that will generate a lot of hot air, and that the admittedly ugly compromise has worked fine for years. --Stephan Schulz 07:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that WP:IAR applies here. Common sense in my mind says that there is no real problem with using BC/AD exclusively. If everyone here had merely cited a fear of revert wars, I might understand. However it appears that some people are against it being used at all and are actually using the "fear" as an excuse.

the "earliest major contributor" seems to have been dropped - no it hasn't. Check the third and last paragraph of MOS' introduction. John Smith's 23:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I see. I was looking for something specifically about dates. Just to make sure, you are referring to that line directly beneath If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason?

And yes, indeed, there are people here that prefer CE/BCE, and some that prefer AD/BC. There has been, however, no-one but you that wants to actually change the compromise solution. Looks like we have consensus (again) for that one. --Stephan Schulz 00:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You need to read the wikipedia definition of consensus. That is that everyone will live with the "consensus". I'm not going to start reverting again, but I'm not going to drop the issue now either. Also Storm Rider said he/she was in favour of BC/AD if the matter were continued. John Smith's 01:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. This harms no-one and is a workable consensus. Any attempt to impose one or other notation will lead to revert wars amd accusations. Paul B 15:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So what if various numbers of editors decided the current version isn't good and kicked off revert wars and accusations? What would you do then?

The simple answer is to do what I'm doing, using dispute resolution. You guys could have so easily taken this matter through the various steps and got a final answer if the disputes didn't end. But you're still on square one. A consensus is only useful when everyone agrees to it. As I've said more than once, users have been disputing the "consensus" you mention for years. So it's no longer a consensus, just a majority of views amongst people who watch this page. John Smith's 15:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

You wanted opinions. I gave mine. Now you complain that "you guys" have not "taken this matter through various steps" to a "final answer". There is no final answer, and the best method of resolution is on the Talk page, not through instant appeals all the way to the Supreme Court. Paul B 16:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't complaining at all. I merely pointed out that if in the past there was such trouble as people fighting over the terms, matters could have been advanced to something more formal. We are using the talk page now, but in the past that was done a lot and could have been moved to a different dispute resolution method. So to claim as some people here have implied that the only way to resolve the matter was to have the current version is not true. John Smith's 16:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstand the use of "consensus" on Wikipedia. I'll admit the usage of the term is unfortunate, in that Wikipedia:Consensus is not the same as wikt:consensus -- it's most certainly not unanimity, and the fact there is disagreement does not mean there is no Wikipedia:consensus. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say that "consensus" as how Wikipedia defines it is a super-majority? All I can see is that "Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome". So if one says they would not abide by the "outcome" (e.g. keeping the current version) then there is no consensus. John Smith's 16:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So your position is that if even you alone keep filling screens full of endless argument, then there is no consensus and we can carry on in permanent pointless disputation? That's not helpful. It's virtually trolling. Paul B 12:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul, I suggest you do what I have been advised to do - assume good faith. It is not trolling to have an opinion on a point and not be pushed to drop it. I am responding to what you and others write. So if you are tired to this discussion you can withdraw, having made your point. If you continue to comment you are either "trolling" yourself of feeding the "troll". John Smith's 13:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. (BC is kinda peculiar, to put it mildly. "Christ was born 4BC." Hm.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Just a note, can someone please dig out the "consensus topic" in the archives. If everyone here is so sure it was formally reached then they must know where it is. John Smith's 16:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• comment - I have always felt that BC/AD was the most appropriate usage for articles in English; I am not much for PC issues. I suspect the majority of average readers are still unfamiliar with the other notation.

This topic is often brought up and I think the concensus, without pointing to it because I don't know where it is exactly and don't want to take the time to find it, was that we were all just tired of seeing/hearing about it. However, I have always felt it was a rather silly outcome; acquiring a stutter just to make sure no personal sensibilities were offended. In the world of academia BCE/CE are used almost exclusively. In the US at large or commonly, one sees BC/AD used the majority of the time. The mere fact that everyone understands what 4 BC means when talking about the birth of Jesus Christ is evidence enough that BC is not taken literally, there is no "hmm" about it. John, I think people are just tired of the discussion; both sides are intransigent in their positions and the current method, though silly to an extreme, works. However, should editors be willing to attempt a final solution, I would be on the side of AD/BC simply because it is the most understood and most common usage in the English language.--Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Just to reiterate what Stephan Schultz said. This is not a Christian article but an article about a Jew who was the founder of a religion that has its own page. If all the other articles on deities use BCE/CE then for harmony we should use it here but the current system works, has more editor support than any other and has been stable for years. So far only John Smith's has advocated changing the page with Storm stating his preference but being willing to accept the current system. I frankly don't care as there are far more fun things to fight over but labels seem to be an important issue to religious people so I suppose theses cyclical disputes are inevitable. Sophia 08:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• Like Storm Rider, my preference would be for BC/AD. I also feel that if we had that originally, it shouldn't have been changed. However, we seem to have a working consensus, and any change is likely to lead to edit wars over something that really isn't worth it. So, even though it's a bit silly, keep both. ElinorD (talk) 09:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Most Jews are offended or irritated by BC and AD because they suggest that Jesus really was Christ and Lord. In contrast, BCE and CE do not imply that Jesus was not Christ or Lord - it simply de-links our calendar from asserting that he is. There is a wolrd of difference between saying that "Jesus really was Christ" or Jesus is everyone's Lord" and saying "I do not believe Jesus is Christ and he is not my Lord." The former statements don't allow for other views; the latter statements definitely allow for other views (not everyone believes Jesus was Christ, but some do; Jesus is not everyone's Lord, but okay, he is your Lord." That is why BCE/CE is less offensive - you can use it and still think Jesus is one with God. Wut how can I say something happened fifty years before Christ without implying I believe Jesus was Christ? In short, the two systems are not comparable. But given how important Jesus is to Christians, I do not object to using AD/BC in this article as long as the other system, CE and BCE, which acknowledge that one does not have to believe Jesus is one's Lord, as well. Be that as it may, this has been relatively stable for years, years during which many people made real contributions to the article by adding content based on research. I still cannot believe that this issue is worth any time or energy when we could instead be reading books and peer-reviewed journal articles (which is time-consuming, but which will provide us with content that will make this a cutting edge encyclopedia). Slrubenstein | Talk 11:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Really, what evidence do you have for that? Jews I've met couldn't give a fig because they understand it's a historic link and most people use it in a non-religious way.

If you believe this to be a non-issue, you wouldn't keep writing so much. The fact you do shows that you do care about it. John Smith's 20:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, if you really did think so many people found the term BC/AD offensive, surely they would find BCE/CE almost as offensive because it's still measuring time in relation to Jesus' supposed birth. If they cared that much they'd insist wikipedia use a date system that wasn't based around Jesus' life at all. John Smith's 21:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Dating in relation to some agreed-upon event makes sense. The supposed birh of Jesus works ok. But calling it "BC" violates religious requirements for many people. I assume you are aware that Christ is not some guy's surname, but rather the declaration that he is "The Anointed One", i.e. the Messiah? --Stephan Schulz 09:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well. Why should some random guy that various people don't think is terribly important be the basis of measuring time? I don't accept your argument on that front. John Smith's 11:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What does the articles title have to do with this? The dating system uses "before Christ", not "before Jesus". Everytime you use this, you implictely accept the core creed that differentiates Christianity from Judaism. Just imagine to be forced to use the phrase "Allahu Akbar" in everyday transactions (and that one does not even contradict Christian teaching...). And no one claims that Jesus (at least the legend, if not the man) is not important. --Stephan Schulz 12:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

No I do not accept the "core creed" every time I use the term. I know non-Christians (whether atheists or belonging to another religion) who use BC/AD all the time. They couldn't give a fig, nor do I about what you mentioned.

Of course some people say Jesus was not important/that important. John Smith's 12:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)\

Indeed. There are people who use these as pure labels. Others are more aware of the history and meaning. Why do you care? And what is the reference for that "that" in your sentence? Yes, compared to the status as saviour of all mankind, some people say he is less important. But no-one I'm aware of claims he is not important at all - whether part real or pure myth, he is the central figure of a major family of religions.--Stephan Schulz 23:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Why did I say "that"? Because opinions can be relative - why else is the term used? John Smith's 23:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Not a useful answer. I asked why you care about AD/CE (question 1) and what your "that" (in "not that important") refers to (question 2). So what is the reference you compare Jesus to? --Stephan Schulz 00:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What is what reference I compare Jesus to?

Why do I care? Because I feel the article should use a consistent, single term in reference to the dates, and I do not agree with the arguments that BC/AD is so "offensive" so as to require it to sit alongside BCE/CE. As the earliest term used in the first major contribution, BC/AD is the best choice in my opinion. John Smith's 01:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm for BCE/CE, as I always prefer PC terms, and beleive this one should replace everywhere the antiquated and religiously based AD/BC terms. I think WP, being a secular encylopedia, should have a preference for the former in all cases, but also because its the standard in academia.Giovanni33 20:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, I'm somewhat surprised you've appeared here. When was the last time you had an interest in religious matters or date terms? Your previous accusations over wiki-stalking towards me are looking rather hollow right now. And please, spare me "assume good faith" - you've declared you have the right to decide when it applies and not in the past. John Smith's 20:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's - play nice and AGF (that's what I'm doing with you despite your aggressive style of posting). Gio may not have posted here for a while but he was very active around the times I remember discussing this the most last year. His appearance is not a surprise to me whereas your sudden interest, despite the fact that you were a registered user when this was really hashed over, is. Sophia 12:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sophia, thank you for informing me of his past involvement. However, Giovanni well understands what I mean. He has refused to AGF in the past, claiming he can decide when it applies and not. So if he would like me to assume good faith in this case, he can start AGF himself without making arbitrary decisions as to when he can and cannot.

How can my appearance be a suprise when I have never been here? How can a user thus ever start to get involved in a page? As you said, AGF. John Smith's 12:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to respond since its somewhate off topic. But, John Smith's please do assume good faith. I do check these pages occassionally, and have been involved in this topic many times in the past, as Sophia points out (I actually check Sophias contribs every now and then as we share similar article interests). That you did follow me to several articles before, or so it seemed, has nothing to do with this. Nor is my comment about assuming good faith relevant here (for the record, my point about that was there comes a point where no assumption is necessary given an abundance of evidence making any other interpretation beyond what is reasonable). That is just common sense, so please don't twist that to mean AGF does not apply; it does not invalidate your--or anyone else's--obilgation to AGF, where an assumption is quite necessary. Here that it certainly is the case, as you are making a very big, and rather blind, assumption regarding why I happen to be here despite, or ignorance, of the evidence to the contrary. This makes it a clear violation of AGF where the policy cleary is intended to apply.Giovanni33 20:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

"That you did follow me to several articles before, or so it seemed" Yes, or so it seemed. And it seemed to be that was what you were doing here. John Smith's 22:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Showing up on one article that I've been to before and whose issue I have been involved in before, does not resemble in any way your wikistalking me to several articles that you had no history on until I showed up. If I did it to several of your articles (over 3), and it just happened, then you'd have a point. Its the point I had before when you kept showing up to revert me. But that is not what we have here, so for you to say it "seems" that way under these circumstances is a baseless attack and clear violation of AGF. There is no comparison.Giovanni33 00:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Following a comment I wrote to ElinorD, John Smith writes, "The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well." But he is wrong. I have read (and listened to) lots of comments by people who oppose BC/AD; all of them are satisfied with BCE and CE, and none of them have gotten annoyed over the date. The only people who ever raise the possibility of this objection, in all my experience, are people who actually want to use BC/AD exclusively. In other words, it is a red-herring. I have explained, in good faith, with no insults, why many people are offended by BC/AD and John Smith's' response is, in effect, I am making it up. So we are all now clear on who lacks good faith. He certainly did not take my comment in good faith. He just wants to argue. If you want to fight, go to a pub and pick one. Me, I am checking my watchlist and then going back to reading a book - you know, doing research. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I think you are actually lacking good faith. I have never said anywhere you were making anything up. I merely disagree that so many people care that much. I think you only person picking a fight is you, because you clearly don't like being contradicted. That's not my problem. John Smith's 22:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Did I misinterpret your saying "Really, what evidence do you have for that?" as implying I have no evidence? I informed you that many Jews are offended by the use of BC/AD as general conventions (I mean, they are not offended when a Christian uses them, only when the Christian assumes everyone else has to use them). Why not accept what I say in good faith? I fully understand why Christians want to continue using BC and AD [1] but their reasons are precisely why many Jews do not want to be forced to use these terms.Slrubenstein | Talk 10:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did misinterpret. I was trying to make the point that everyone's experiences differ. You can say "most" Jews are offended - it is my experience that is not the case. And you did say "most", not "many". If you want to retract your earlier comments, fair enough. Also, why are you bringing up American Baptists? John Smith's 10:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I am bringing up Southern Baptists because this discussion has so far been limited to the opinions of a handfull of editors and I think - especially since this is an encyclopedia - it is worth researching the reasons people outside of Wikipedia provide for preferring AD/BC oor BCE/CE, or opposing them. And no, I will stand by what I said: most Jews I know are irritated by or offended by the presumption that non-Christians should use BC and AD. Look at footnote 1 here - this is not a survey, just something I found on the web - but I think it illustrates the fact that the point I am making is non-controversial; other Jews take my point for granted. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I stand by my opinion that "most" Jews are not irritated or offended by the use of BC/AD on a project like wikipedia. Doesn't mean they like it, merely that they can live with it. Your link says that Jews don't use BC/AD - I'm sure a number (whether some or most) don't. But that doesn't mean they can't stand the idea of an encyclopedia like wikipedia using BC/AD, or that they would refuse to edit a page that uses it. On the subject of encyclopedia, I note that Britannica uses BC/AD exclusively. Does that means Jews refuse to access it?

As to those Americans, it's a red herring. We're discussing the issues here ourselves. So some Christians want to assert the use for religious reasons. Good for them - so what? I'm sure you don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean we can't use BC/AD other than as part of a "religious agenda". As I keep saying, if you're not happy with the use of BC/AD you can campaign to get wikipedia's guidelines changed. But whilst it remains an acceptable term you need to accept that. John Smith's 11:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia guidelines (whcih are only guidelines, not policy) in no way prevent editors from reaching the kinds of compromise they reached here, a compromise that I like most of us here find fully satisfactory, I see absolutely no need to change the guidelines. Obviously I accept the use of the term since I accept this compromise. That is what makes it a compromise, get it? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course compromise can be reached. I was merely pointing out that your view BC/AD is "offensive" is a personal one, not one supported by wikipedia guidelines. That said didn't you try to get the guidelines changed a few years ago? John Smith's 11:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no policy on these matters, only guidelines. Several years ago I tried to create a new policy. It lost, although my proposal had considerable support (my point only being that my view is not a fringe view. And obviously I accept the fact that the use of BC/AD is not a fringe view - my policy proposal was predicated on it not being a fringe view). As for my being offended - Elinor D, an editor I really respect, expressed her preference for BC/AD and I simply wanted to share with her my reasons for differing. Be that as it may, the policy proposal was some time ago and I don't feel a need to bring it up again. wWat we are dealing with right now is not Wikipedia policy i.e. all articles. We are talking about only one article, this one. As to the Manual of Style, no one here has ever claimed that it forbids AD and BC. What we do claim is that it also allows BCE and CE. Many people may prefer that any given article use only one system. But there is no policy on that, and we are not alking about all Wikipedia articles, only this one. People were divided over which one to use and felt strongly on both sides. And people on both sides acknolwedged that the opposing side felt strongly, and people on both sides expressed a desire for a compromise, and the compromise was to use both. And virtually all the major contributors to this article have been happy with that for years. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• On a side-note I think it's rather ironic that I'm being asked to assume good faith (fair enough) when some editors clearly don't want to take note of that guideline. I don't know, maybe it's a case of "four legs good, two legs bad"..... John Smith's 23:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Avoid neologism, use only BC/AD. I know I'm coming late to this scuffle. For the record, I prefer the use of BC/AD only and think that BCE/CE is rank neologism that ought not appear anywhere in Wikipedia, per WP:Avoid Neologisms. The.helping.people.tick 04:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Check the Common era article. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't make it a neologism. Sophia 05:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. It's not that I've never heard of BCE/CE; I've heard this neologism far too much. In the article you cite, the earliest date given (with citation) for the use of the abbreviation BCE is 1856. Sounds new to me! Almost every supporting reference uses the clause, "Recently B.C.E. ... (has been used more and more among academics)", etc. That is why I consider BCE anc CE to be a pestilential neologism that unnecessarily complexifies the English language. Just because Wikipedia has an article on it doesn't mean that it isn't a neologism. The.helping.people.tick 13:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

In 1856 maybe it was a neologism; today it is not. Besides, the concept goes back to the 1770s. Today people say "Common Era" instead of "Vulgar Era" because the primary meaning of "vulgar" has changed. Nevertheless, the practice has its origin in the late eighteenth century, and that is far, far from a neologism. Aren't encyclopedias great? You can learn all sorts of stuff you didn't know! Isn't having an open mind and learning new things better than being ignorant! I love Wikipedia! Slrubenstein | Talk 15:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Also a latecomer to this discussion, but it strikes me that something as old as the United States should be considered a neologism. Now, I don't think this should decide the issue - the WP policy says avoid neologisms, not eliminate them completely (where would we be if we ignored the fairly recent conventions of grammar and punctuation? The encyclopedia would be different, I'm sure...). But it does allow the point to stand; neologisms don't have a cutoff point of thirty years ago, it's more of a penetration issue - how long has each term been in the public consciousness? BC/AD has the advantage of being nearly a millennium and a half old; BCE/CE has been around a little over a tenth of that time. Again, does this decide the debate? Good grief, no, and I myself am a fan of the established "BC/BCE" and "AD/CE" method. I just thought I'd provide this food for thought.

On a fairly unrelated note, Slrubenstein, you may wish to revise your statement; your last sentence could be construed as an attack, though I'm sure it was far from your intent to call The.helping.people.tick ignorant. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 15:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your constructive intent David, but to be clear, I was indeed saying that The.Helping.people.Tick was ignorant - specifically, of the fact that BCE/CE are not neologisms (though I readily admit that they emerged only around the time when two conditions existed: first, the rapid spread of the Gregorian calendar as a world-wide point of reference, and second, the decline of Church domination of Europe). But lest anyone think that by pointing our a former ignorance I was making a personal attack, let me admit - with pleasure and pride - that until I read the Wikipedia article I was ignorant as to what Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle really is; until Wikipedia, I was ignorant as to what "gravid" meant or the right way to use it (with relation to fish); I was ignorant of many things. I hope no one finds this controverial - who opens up an encyclopedia unless they are ignorant of something? Isn't that the point? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Well said Slrubenstein. I had to look up gravid as you made me curious. Using with fish sounded like a posh sauce or something - how wrong can you be! As a real off topic I found this in another thread and it seems to sum up your point [2]. I took your comment as a sharing of the wonder of finding out new things and exploring new unheard of topics, it's a shame it could be misunderstood as an attack and hopefully will not be taken that way. Sophia 16:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Although Slrub may not have been making a personal attack, many wikipedians would (and do) take offence to being called "ignorant". There are politer ways to put the point across. But to be honest I thought the comment "Isn't having an open mind and learning new things" was much more rude and uncalled for. John Smith's 17:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. A better word might be unknowledgable; ignorance implies an undesirable personality fault (see second definition). Again, I didn't assume you were making an attack- I was just pointing out that it could be taken that way. Remember, in a text-only medium, it's far easier to be misunderstood than it is in speech. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 17:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to David and John Smith's for their gentlemanly defense while I have been away. Of course I am ignorant of many things, and take no offense at someone pointing that out in general, even in public. In the particular case of BCE/CE being a neologism, however, I wish to dispell the idea that I am unfamiliar with the history or extent of its use. I am well aware that arguing that it is a neologism may be provocative to those who typically think in shorter spans of time than centuries. I don't mind provoking such people if it means getting a better Wikipedia article, and apparently such people (Sophia, Slrubenstein) do not mind provoking me in return--fair's fair! David provides good food for thought by drawing attention to the parameters of "penetration" and relative length of use. Further, I see no reason to complexify the language unnecessarily--BCE/CE adds nothing, and takes away simplicity and therefore clarity. Using BCE/CE makes this article in Wikipedia worse. I do not expect to "win" this argument, I only wish to register my dissatisfaction with the current usage. Also, please note I am not arguing against the concept of "Common Era" or "Vulgar Era" -- I am arguing that adding BCE or CE as conventions for denominating periods of time detracts from effective communication, and therefore should not be done. Further, using BCE and CE has only been done relatively recently, and by a relatively few people, and not for the sake of clear communication with most people. Cheers! The.helping.people.tick 03:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the.helping.people.tick and I agree concerning the substance of the matter. I don't see any need for me to repeat my explanation for my own position, but I do want to thank the.helping.tick for providing us with an expanded (and I think somewhat different from the neologism claim) explanation for his own view - while I don't agree, I still appreciate the explanation. And while I may have misunderstood what he was (and was not) admitting to when he mad his initial comment about neologisms, I am glad that he and I agree that admitting ignorance is not at all a bad thing. I genuinely believe that one should embark on writing an encyclopedia with humility, and I really just cannot see how anyone would turn to an encyclopedia if not with some sense of humility, and a conscious desire to open one's mind. I actually think these are important values that the Wikipedia community should promote, and I would be disappointed if anyone took my remarks as a personal attack. I took the.helping.people.tick's assertion that he believed BCE/CE to be a neologism on good faith. It appears that he took my comments on good faith as well and I appreciate it. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad we're all still being civil. Thank you for your reply, Slrubenstein. My opinion on the matter is that, ideally, we would choose BC/AD as the most effective and easily readable form of communication; however, knowing that ferocious edit warring would harm the article far more badly than the small amount of less-effective communication, I would prefer to leave it as {BC/BCE) and (AD/CE). =David^(talk)_(contribs) 16:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like to weigh in on this topic. There are multiple reasons to stick with just the BC/AD convention:

  1) it's been in place since the 7th century for everyone

  2) to avoid political correctness bandwagon because it is only being changed because people don't like the fact it is based on Jesus but to that I say refer to my item #3

  3) the BCE/CE convention is still based on when Jesus was born so what we are really gaining other than angering those who still want BC/AD who feel there is no need to have 2 conventions or a newer convention (we complain when Microsoft creates their own standard when there exists a more universal one; this is no different)

  4) this particular page, afterall, is a page on Jesus so why are we wanting to use 2 different conventions that have the same chronological basis with one of them flying in the face of the very person this page is about?

Sophia (08:42, 4 August 2007 ) seems to think this is an issue of Christians going label crazy but, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it the secularists who are wanting to replace a system that has been in place since the 7th century just because the current convention focuses on a Christian figure and event?

The new convention is solely meant for political correctness (it just so happens to have been created in this age of political correctness, coincidence?) because it is still based on the same standard of defining when BCE occurs compared to CE but just removes references to Christ. Slrubenstein (11:44, 4 August 2007) thinks it is much better to offend those who want to keep BC/AD than those who are offended by BC/AD. Everyone who opposes BC/AD always uses excuses like those who want to keep BC/AD are so pedantic or anal retentive or whatever, but it isn't like we didn't already have a system in place that worked fine for over 1 millennium. Slrubenstein also thinks this topic isn't worth the time. If it isn't worth the time to argue it then why was it worth the time for people to think of a new naming convention to displace the current one that worked just fine? Who is really being the pedantic/anal-retentive group? Does it really hurt those who don't even care about Jesus to use the BC/AD convention or do they want to use BCE/CE just so they can see just how much it does hurt those who do care about Jesus? Are people that childish (or do they prefer domineering, to be politically correct of course?) that they feel the need to offend others every chance they get even with things that they don't even care about? An example being of course a Christian topic having to use secular dating schemes which are still based on Christian events?

Let me suggest something in a satirical manner so people who want BCE/CE/BC/AD or BCE/CE exclusively can (hopefully) see the insanity of their ways. My suggestion is that we remove the entire Jesus and Christ pages because it is only politically correct to do so in this day in age. To not do so would offend anyone who does not believe in Jesus/Christ or who dos not believe Jesus is Christ (some Jews do indeed believe that) even if they would never read those pages (or even care they exist) in the first place. We should not stand for such insults to 4 billion people but instead it is much better to insult only 2 billion people despite the fact this page can be considered to be geared toward them (the 2 billion group). If this is a secular encyclopedia as Giovanni33 (20:10, 4 August 2007) says it is then those pages shouldn't exist in the first place. No hint of religion should ever grace this website because if it does then that means those who read the text related to religion will feel they have to convert in order to uphold the false belief that those pages infringe on their right to not have a religion. Glitch26 03:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but did you more than skim the discussion you are so forcefully joining? No one (here) objects to a dating system based on an agreed upon date, and no-one objects to taking the mythical birth of Jesus as this date. BCE was certainly in use 1856, and hence hardly coined in "this age of political correctness". The Latin form has deeper roots still. And yes, some religious people, including observant Jews and Jehova's Witnesses, have problem with the terms AD and BC. Non-believers can treat those as simple labels, but for non-Christian believers the use of these labels may conflict with their religion. As for your last paragraph: There is a difference between describing a religion, and forcing people to acknowledge it. Political correctness should never stand in the way of actual correctness, but there is no good reason for making peoples lives harder than necessary. --Stephan Schulz 07:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

there is no good reason for making peoples lives harder than necessary

Stephan, so you're telling me that a Jew or Jehova's Witness will refuse to read or edit a wikipedia entry that uses BC/AD? John Smith's 09:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

there is no good reason for making peoples lives harder than necessary ... which is why I say: stick with the BC/AD usage that everyone knows. For those sensitive souls who have a religious problem with that, please let me know what the new, unoffensive names for January and Monday are. The.helping.people.tick 11:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"First month" and "first day"? John Smith's 11:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I suppose those are nearly as good as BCE and CE (i.e., they are colorless, communicate less clearly, and have shallow and narrow usage bases); however, I may quibble with designating Monday as "first day" since I've always considered Suday to be the first day. Maybe we could go with Nivose and Primidi (changing to a ten-day week to get away from the clear religious significance of the seven-day week). The.helping.people.tick 12:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

First, I apologize for any formatting issues with my original post yesterday since that was the first time I contributing to a discussion. Also, because it was my first time there was no other way to join in other than to just do so. There was no forcing because there is only one way to join in. If my method was wrong then this page shouldn't be edited by just anyone. With that said, some of the points I made still applied to this specific article. There is no reason to use a secular dating convention for anything really, but especially for this topic. Once a system works there is no reason to change it. David says below that BCE/CE has been in use for about 150 years but BC/AD has been in use for almost 10x that long so why are we suddenly in need of replacing it? Not everyone in the Renaissance or Dark Ages were Christians but they went about their merry way ignoring things that didn't apply to them. I think that rationale should be justification enough for keeping BC/AD for this article as well as others. As you said Stephan, there is no good reason for making peoples lives harder than necessary so we should just stick to 1 dating convention (the first one). You can't please everyone all the time so why try now to make those who feel their soul conflicted with such angst about a dating convention that we have to change it after all these hundreds of years? We are only showing the letters afterall. Let them makeup something else for the letters to stand for if it's such a problem. You may suggest the same to me for BCE/CE but I say to that that BC/AD were there first and are working great. I guess I'll end with this question: Why is it okay to offend Christians but not everyone else? That's the whole premise behind this issue and many other political correctness topics. Who makes that decision and who gives that right to make that decision? Thanks for reading my comments. Glitch26 22:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Glitch, please explain to me how BCE/CE offends Christians? I can see how BC/AD offends Jews because to call Jesus Lord and Christ is to say that Judaism is wrong. But to say "Common Era" does not make any claims about any religion - it does not mean that Judaism is right, and it does not mean that Christianity is wrong. Why is it that when you tell me my religion is wrong, that is not offensive - but when I tell you that I do not share your religion (note: not that I think your religion is wrong, just that is is not for me, it can be right for you but not for me) that somehow offends you? By the way, if you really believe that "Not everyone in the Renaissance or Dark Ages were Christians but they went about their merry way ignoring things that didn't apply to them," then you are woefully ignorant of history and the centuries of Christian oppression and persecution of Jews. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Risking answering for Glitch, I find it at least inconsistent (if not offensive) that one group wants their sensitivities acknowledged by a change in my language (specifically BC/AD --> BCE/CE), but dismisses the sensitivities of Christians to using the pagan denominations for months and days. Anyone familiar with history knows of the severe persecution of Christians by pagans. And those familiar with Christian beliefs know that Christians do not worship Janus or Mani. So it is not the term BCE or CE that is offensive, but the selective change in what is a common and accepted usage, that is offensive. This arbitrary mangling of my language is not offensive to me as a Christian, but as an English-speaker. The.helping.people.tick 12:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's stick to one topic at a time. Just to be clear, are you saying that BCE/CE does not offend you? Glitch seemed to be suggesting that it is offensive to Christians. I am glad to learn that it does not offend you. If BCE/CE does not offend Jews, and does not offend Christians, then it is a slam-dunk: if we are to use only one terminology, we will use BCE/CE. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It is offensive on 2 fronts. The one that The.helping.people.tick specified (BCE/CE is an arbitrary notation and has no place anywhere, especially in this topic) and the second is a religious one. BCE/CE used for a topic on a Christian icon doesn't make any sense because it was only created to ignore the significance of the birth of Jesus. BC/AD has existed for a long time and I've never heard of any Jew, pagan, or atheist complain about it during that time. Why are there complaints now? If it is offensive why did it only just now become offensive? To say "Common Era" changes the significance and impact of the Christian religion on history therefore it has no place on this topic. Why do we have a need to change history? Muslims invented algebra. Are we going to change history to ignore the impact of that religion on mathematics? It's funny how "Common Era" is still based on when Jesus was born so what are we gaining by using it other than changing its name? What use is that? Proponents of wanting BCE/CE for this article would have a stronger argument if the system actually changed the year in which BCE changes to CE. As The.helping.people.tick noted, the months and days used in the Gregorian calendar are not based on Christian ideas so I guess the need to change their names is not required despite still being based on other religions. Why aren't we trying to come up with a universal set of month/day names that aren't based on any religion? It is obvious why the BCE/CE notation shouldn't be used for this specific topic but all arguments toward not using BCE/CE at all still apply to this specific topic. This topic is just an example of the bigger issue. Glitch26 02:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

tsk, tsk. Read more carefully, my dear Slrubenstein: "This arbitrary mangling of my language is not offensive to me as a Christian, but as an English-speaker." To put it somewhat differently: English speakers should be offended, as I am, at the mangling of their language by the arbitrary adoption of BCE/CE. If you want to say in response, "but it's not arbitrary, I am offended at BC/AD for religious reasons" then (this is where the second issue comes up) I am sure that you will want to be consistent and be sensitive to the (similarly offensive) religious origins of names like "Monday" and "January" as well as the seven-day week. But I will oppose your attempt to change that language too, because mangling language is not a good way of dealing with such sensitivities. In sum: (1) as an English speaker, I am offended by the rank neologism BCE/CE, and think it ought not be used anywhere, including in this article; (2) Unless you also oppose "Monday" and "January," there appears to me to be an anti-Christian bias to your anti-BC/AD position; and (3) despite my dissatisfaction with BC/BCE and AD/CE, I would rather keep that in this article than use only BCE/CE. The.helping.people.tick 01:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I misread you and apologize. But, BCE/CE are not my attempts to change the english languag, they have been part of the English language since the early 1800s. Why did they emerge then? Because of a very significant coincidence: just as Europe was coming to dominate the globe and more and more non-Christians were coming to use the European calendar, the Christian Churches were losing their political domination over Europe. Be that as it may, languages change all the time, and when it comes to common era, no one today has to try to change English, the change happened. Jews have been using it for over a century, and historians too. Former nun Karen Armstrong uses it in her popular books on religion and God. Now i have a question for you, as a Christian: do Christians believe two wrongs make a right? Do Christians believe that if someone slaps them, the Christian should slap them back? I ask because it sounds like you are saying that if i do something that offends you (which is wrong), then it is okay for you to do something that offends me. One ofmy closest friends is a Christian and i have to say, he has led me to think that this is antithetical to Christianity. he led me to believe that he strives to love others, even when they offend him or even hurt others. Based on what you have written i infered you are a Christian and if i am mistaken i apologize (not that I ever thought calling someone a Christian is an insult) but I really never thought a Christian would say "I will be kind to you only if you are kind to me; if you are unkind to me I will be unkind back." Wow. It just isn't what I expected. Now, you know that BC/AD offends me - but i have also made it plain that I will not object to the use of BC/AD in this article if yoiu are willing to use BCE/CE. At this point I leave it up to your consciense as Christian to do what you think is right (from what you write above it seems you are willing to compromise, if I read you correctly I thank you and am willing to end the matter with that). But, to respond to your last comment - when have i injured you? When - I ask you to provide just ONE example of ANY edit I made to this talk page OR to the article - have I insisted that we use pagan names of days or months? you brought it up. you make it sound as if i have injured you. This seems vey unfair to me. Please provide one actual instance where I have done this thing that you insist is offensive to you.? I am serious about this because i do not like to be accused of having harmed another person when it was not my intention, and if you can show me just one example on this page or the article page of my imposing pagan day or month names against the protests of a Christian editor, I will apologize. Please let us avoid hypothetials. Hurting others is no game, and I hope you are not playing games. Did I offend you? What exactly did I actually do (again, please no hypotheticals)? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Most people participating in this discussion, on both sides, have constructively stuck to the issue at hand: what convention should be used specifically in this article. I think it is a very bad idea to let this discussion turn into an argument over whether BCE/CE are in and of themselves reasonable or acceptable for general use. This would be comparable to arguing over "the truth" and one thing we know about the major policies of Wikipedia is that they are designed to guide a community of people who will never agree as to what the truth is, byt taking "the truth" out of the picture. Wikipedia is not the place to argue whether AD/BC or CE/BCE are "right" or "wrong" (and John. Smith's, I do question your good faith when you bring up the names of the week - unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies ... but many people do slip from arguing over BCE/CE to names of the week and arguments that anyone who uses BCE/CE is insonsistne and all these amount to arguments against BCE/CE itself i.e. an argument that in some general way it is stupid or wrong. I have never made that argument bout AD/BC, and no one should be making that argument about BCE/CE for this simple reason: in the Wikipedia comunity there are people on both sides who will never change their minds. The only question is, how can such people, with such divergent points of view, work together. People on both sides need to acknowledge that the task is not to change one another's minds about their own beliefs or personal preferences, but rather to seek out acceptable compromises or a framework that enables people with opposing views to work together. So what do we do with this page? We have an NPOV policy that does not address dating conventions but that does make it clear that Wikipedia is not the place to argue over the truth, that multiple points of view should be presented, and that we should present not our own views but views from verifiable sources. I have read history books about Jesus and the Gospels that use AD/BC, and also that use BCE/CE. We also have a manual of style that permits both conventions ... if someone wants to argue that this guideline should be changed, do not do it here, do it on the guideline talk page, or propose a new policy and debate it there. But the manual allows both. It expresses a preference for using the first convention used in an article (which in this case was AD) but it is fair for me to remind people that this is a guideline, not a policy, which means that the people who made it a guideline rather than a policy understood that there could be exceptions. It also expresses a preference for consistent use within an article. Again, these are guidelines, not rules that we must blindly follow. So we are left with this: what do we do with this article? I repeat my initial claim: several years ago people worked out a compromise that satisfied almost everyone on both sides and that has been fairly stable. What John Smith's or other people should be working at is not changing my mind or trying to prove I am wrong, they should be trying to work out an arrangement that will not result in an edit war between editors acting in good faith but with divergent views. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Slrub, you're questioning my good faith? Well I question yours given I didn't bring up names of the week and was clearly making a joke.

I have still not been shown where and when this compromise was worked out. Please direct me to the discussion, because if it's no longer available then I'm going to have to assume it was gained through majority views, not consensus.

I would also like my question answered on the issue of "offence". If it is "problematic" for some wikipedians to have BC/AD used, does that mean they would refuse to edit/read articles than use them, as I have no idea how it is a problem. John Smith's 13:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me agree with Slrubenstein here, and aplogize for getting carried away. This is indeed not a debate about the merits of AD/BC vs. CE/BCE, but the attempt to find a working solution for this article. The compromise has worked for years. Neither extreme case has. This should speak for itself. One more point, John: I distinctly remember me arguing for AD/BC just a few years back - essentially because it was what I was used to. By now I have been convinced that there are people who have real and legitimate problems with this style. I don't share them, but I can recognize and accept them. --Stephan Schulz 13:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

John, I am sorry that you missed the part where I wrote above, "unless you are just joking in which case I take it back with apologies" - I assumed that this would be enough to show you that I intend to be civil, and that I was acting in good faith. It really is possible for me to misunderstand you while acting in good faith, and I do not think that, given that I noted the apolgy to you, you are bieng fair to question my good faith. As to the date of the compromise, I forget when it was. I suggest you go back through the edit history to see when we started using the two together, and then look at the talk at that time. As to your question about whether I will read other articles using AD, I decline to respond. it is none of your business, and it is not relevant to this discussion. You seem to have missed my point entirely, that this is not the place to debate the validity of someone's views. But your bad faith is now evident: you are using my willingness to compromise against me. I have made it clear that I accept the use of BC/AD in certain cases, and you are implying that if I do I have no grounds to insist that BCE/CE should be used. You are implying that I have to be as dogmatic as you, and that if I insist on including BCE/CE I then ought to oppose every instance of BC/AD. I guess you will simply never understand what it is like to be a tolerant and compromising person. Of course compromises lead to inconsistencies. But i am willing to live with that to get along with other people. You are incapable of this and I doubt you will ever understand. If I am wrong I APOLOGIZE but you will convince me that I am wrong only if you stop questioning my beliefs and accept that I have a right to have them even if you do not share or understand them. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw where you said "unless you are just joking, etc". But as I said, I didn't raise it, which is why I questioned your good faith.

It's none of my business? Since when did I address my comments towards you personally? The fact you mentioned what you might do at all is very strange. The question is, however, valid more generally because I don't think for a second anyone who was intelligent and mature would refuse to edit or read an article because of whether it used BC/AD or BCE/CE. Anyone who did is not worth taking into consideration for the purposes of how wikipedia should be edited. It would be like an ultra-sensitive American or whatever refusing to take part in an article that used the word "colour" because it's UK spelling. John Smith's 13:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've looked as best I can, but as far as I can see there is no discussion entry that shows all members taking part in the discussion accepted this "compromise". If anything I found a discussion (15th May) where Slrub said some users weren't satisifed - he talked about a "majority", which is not consensus. If people still believe that every signed up to it, then they can go fish it out. I've spent long enough trying to dig this mysterious thread. John Smith's 14:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I take responsibility for raising the days of the week argument here, and acknowledge that this is not the place for that discussion. My apologies. I dislike the compromise solution of using both dating conventions in this article, but recognize that this is the best that we can do here now, until, like the French Republican Calendar, the ill-conceived system of BCE/CE goes away. :) The.helping.people.tick 14:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this boils down to a matter of what is more important, getting rid of the dual notation, or promoting the notation you prefer (because in wikipedia's eye, neither era notation is superior: both are acceptable). Here is a question. To those who hate the dual notation, would you support choosing the notation you like less over using the dual notation? Do you dislike the dual notation so much that you'd could live with either BC/AD or BCE/CE as long as they both weren't used? Because, the above arguments haven't so much revolved around the dual notation being so bad, but instead arguments for why one specific notation is superior to another. Seriously, ask your self, if you dislike the dual notation so much, could you live with the less preferable era notation? Could John Smith and The.helping.people.tick live with BCE/CE if it meant we got rid of the dual notation? I don't believe, after all the above debate, we've progressed any further than when we started. For those who hate CE, having BC/E is better than BCE by itself, and for those who hate AD, having BC/E is better than having BC by itself. So where are we in regards to getting this article up to FA status? Oh yeah, like I said in my initial post above, all progress towards FA work would halt if we got into another era notation debate. Can we agree that what we have now is the best we will get and finally move on?-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that what we have is the best. If you really want to get me on-side, the least you could do is dig out the "consensus discussion". I will at least remain flexible if you do that. John Smith's 16:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

previous discusions [3][4][5]. I think there are more but this illustrates the wide participation in this subject we have had and why we have come to this compromise that seems to work. Sophia 17:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for getting around to that - I don't see why it took so long to get a simple request like that actioned, given I asked several times.

However I'm not that impressed. Only five editors agreed to the consensus (Archive 25), and the discussion was there for less than 24 hours. In Archive 28 a large majority voted to keep the dual use, but it wasn't anywhere near consensus.

This is the problem I have. People keep harping on about there being "consensus", when in many respects it seems like a majority bullying editors whenever they want to express a view that disagrees with their's. Sure some are polite, but others start labelling new visitors as essentially being "trouble-makers" and that they should basically "shut up and go away".

This isn't a case of consensus, it's a "tyranny" of the majority. John Smith's 13:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

John, simple request? Sophia did something I would not have done in a million years. That took time and effort to do; if the topic is important to you than you should have done it yourself. Are you impaired or was it that you could not be bothered with pressing the buttons and reading each archive page? I don't mean to ruffle your feathers, but I do want you to understand that you have no room in which to complain. The other editors are not here to serve you or comply with requests simply because you ask when you. You are responsible for doing research just as everyone else is.

The compromise has worked for a while; it is not perfect and it will frustrate or offend advocate editors from both sides. When it isn't broke, it does not need to be fixed. Tyranny is both inaccurate and extreme; what rights are being denied the "minority"? Which minority are we talking about; the one that hates BC/AD or others? It is fully compliant with Wikipedia policy and other style guides. I think what you are really saying is that the majority of editors (from both sides) have taken a position in conflict with your personal wishes. I don't think there is a next step for your position, but I would suggest remember the old saying about accepting the things.... --Storm Rider ^(talk) 14:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Storm Rider, if I was involved in a dispute with an editor that couldn't find something I kept refering to I would find it for them, especially given I would know better what to look for. If I simply agreed with a position and didn't know the matter in question, then I would be less likely to do so. But if I kept saying "we have consensus on this" I would back my point up with hard evidence. I did have a look through the archives, though missed it - maybe I was looking for the wrong date.

I don't mind what the majority says or feels - everyone has a right to their view. All I have said is that there was no real consensus, only a majority view. It is a tyranny of the majority if people are going to be attacked and labelled from bringing up a point they may deem important - it is basically bullying and intimidation. As I said, some editors have been very polite - others have demonstrated those afore-menetioned negative qualities.

There are many more steps that one can take from here on, such as mediation. What do you mean when you say "I would suggest remember the old saying about accepting the things...." John Smith's 14:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Style guides

Just a quick comment from an editor who hasn't bothered with this article in about two years: Has anyone thought to consult modern style guides? The Wikipedia MoS doesn't provide any help one way or the other, but I'd ask if we've ever checked, say, Chigago, MLA, APA, or any other style guides to see what their position on the matter is. --Avery W. Krouse 13:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Chicago says The choice between one or the other is up to the writer and should be flagged only if the customs of a specific field or community seem to be in danger of being (unwittingly) violated.[6] ALA says For dates, use BCE (Before Common Era) and CE (Common Era). Do not use B.C. or A.D.[7] I believe the APStylebook uses BC/AD based on we're staying with B.C. and A.D. as the more common and understandable abbreviations.[8]. A number of University styleguides don't take sides and say both are appropriate (i.e. Dartmouth, Columbia, University of Illinois). So really, I don't think we can point to any one source to say one era notation is superior to another.-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line is that this particular can of worms cannot be closed. The CE/BCE notation has been around for over 150 years, and in that time, neither that style nor AD/BC has been deprecated in its use. Both forms are equally valid. You can boil down the argument any way you like: Christian vs. Secular, Traditionalist vs. Progressive, Historian vs. Layman. These are perennial arguments that have not been solved in the decades, even centuries or millennia they've been in play. We're not going to discuss it down in a few months on Wikipedia; especially if we want to push for FA. Either decision results in dissatisfaction and probable vandalism and edit warring down the road. The "BC/BCE" - "AD/CE" standard has been an acceptable compromise for a long while. If new information arises, I'm happy to entertain it in another debate, but I agree with Andrew c above: we need to move on with more important (or, if you prefer, more wide-reaching) edits. Thank you. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 16:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I too thought to look at style guidelines... but both styles are loaded with POV and there is no universal consensus. The WP:MOS states to remain consistent throughout the article and that both styles are acceptable. The MOS also states, "When either of the two styles are acceptable it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change." So I went back to see what the original version was---and this article has been using both for so long that it isn't even funny. With that in mind and the fact that either BC or BCE has POV, I support keeping it the way it is---even if it is tacky.Balloonman 15:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

BC and AD vs BC/E and AD/CE arbitrary break

Got fed up with having to scroll so down so much so have started a new section - hope no one minds.

So far John Smith's has not demonstrated any new consensus for changes of dating convention to the article so I think we can safely say we have exhausted this and should go back to the FA status push. Any accusations of "bullying" "tyranny" or other such inflammatory language will be treated with whatever level of intervention is required to get it to stop. We have discussed this to death and I personally have put time into retrieving old discussions to help others understand the background of this compromise (a bit of a waste of time as far as I can see as it seemed to throw petrol on the accusations bonfire). We have been civil and kept to the point despite provocation and attempts to sidetrack so I am confident that any outside bodies reading this thread will see it as (on the whole) wikipedia's discussion methods working well.

As an aside I will confess to have "wikistalked" John Smith's contributions list and have found that the BC/AD change is prominent in his editing - almost to the extent that I would call it a "campaign [9] [10] [11] [12] (there are more but this gives a flavour). This is not healthy and could be considered a violation of WP:POINT. Hopefully we will now move on. Sophia 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)