Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trolltalk

Trolltalk

This is the second VfD for this article, first was 27 April 2004 - 3 May 2004; no consensus was reached. See Talk:Trolltalk

"since the community is rather small and users rarely get mod points. Also, Slashdot's editors don't pay much attention to what goes on in 20721." -- Then why should an encylopedia? Delete Afcassidy 12:48, 17 June 2005

Votes to delete

• Delete, nn. --W(t) 07:26, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)
• Delete. -Sean Curtin 07:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. --pile0nades^{Talk | Contrib} 08:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, obviously. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. If sock puppets want to keep it, then it should go. — P Ingerson (talk) 15:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete—I've seen articles ten times more notable than this silliness that have been deleted. We need to stop having one standard for internet trivia and another standard for everything else. Everyking 15:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete nn. — mark ✎ 15:53, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. silsor 19:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, trollcruft, sockpuppet limit has been exceeded. RickK 20:45, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh come on, what is it with you people?? The slashdot trolling phenomenon and associated articles make for some of the best, most entertaining/informative reading on Wikipedia. The trolltalk entry is part of that. Why all this deletionist mania?? What's to be gained by eliminating good articles just because some people you dislike have contributed to them? Babajobu 21:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: This is an encyclopedia, a forum for truth and accuracy. These "troll groups" support the very opposite of truth and accuracy. I am not aware of any encyclopedia of any merit that suspends integrity and allows the publication of lies, nonsense, vindictiveness, and fluff, just because those things can be "funny". The fact that something is "all in good fun" (a matter of opinion) does not excuse any indiscretion and make it automatically acceptable for every venue. There are many appropriate places for anarchistic comedy but a serious and fact-based encyclopedia is not one of them.
      • Comment: If you want an encyclopedia to be a "forum for truth and accuracy," you really should prevent people from anonymously making edits to it. Also, as I am sure you're aware, because of this open nature (not preventing anonymous edits to articles), Wikipedia is considered a bit of a joke when it comes to content that encyclopedias are traditionally consulted for. This is simply an attempt by whoever started this VfD to stifle and suppress a certain demographic. If we only have articles about Slashdot, CmdrTaco and the editors et al., we're showing a certain amount of bias toward that side of site. Like it or not, Trolling is definitely a huge part of the Slashdot culture.
    • With all due respect, you are absolutely missing the point and also, I think, compromising Wikipedia's mission. Of course we do not want Wikipedia to include "lies, nonsense, vindictiveness, and fluff". If the trolltalk entry contained LNVF I would support its deletion. But it most certainly does not. The article is NOT itself a troll. Rather, it describes the activities of trolls. This is a crucial difference, and, honestly, it shouldn't be too difficult to grasp. It's the same difference between an article on al Qaeda, and a piece of al Qaeda propoganda. Wikipedia would obviously include the former, but exclude the latter. Would you argue for deleting the al Qaeda entry because "Wikipedia is not here to wage jihad"?? Babajobu 21:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • While I think this article should go, I believe judging the merit of an article by whether or not sockpuppets vote to keep it is absurd, and such votes should not count. Everyking 21:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • If an article's support comes almost entirely from sockpuppets, that's strong evidence that it's nothing by a vanity article created & maintained by the very people the article is about. Vanity articles can sometimes be hard to identify but the character & identities of the persons editing/supporting them can help to determine if an article's only purpose is self-promotion.
    • Yes. It might sound absurd in theory, but in practice any article that deserves to be kept on merit, won't attract sockpuppets because it doesn't need them. Only articles that "should go" will atrract socks supporting them, because they're the only ones that need them. It's a useful rule of thumb. — P Ingerson (talk) 21:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I think that's a crap rule of thumb. With that as our standard, we would delete every article related to Islam, the Holocaust, Ukraine, Sino-Japanese relations, and god knows what else. Babajobu 21:28, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Good point, but how often do serious articles about Islam, Sino-Japanese relations, etc. get nominated for VfD in the first place? And when they do, it's usually socks wanting them deleted for not supporting their POV. And then the corollary applies: If the sockpuppets want to delete an article, it deserves to be kept. — P Ingerson (talk) 21:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Oh, I didn't realize the rule of thumb only applied when an article was already up for deletion. I thought it was a general way of determining which articles (in VfD stage or not) were worthy of deletion. Okay, so even in this more tightly circumscribed form, and even when we invoke the corollary you describe (in which sockpuppets are voting for deletion, thereby guiding us to "keep") we must still recognize the mutliple exceptions to both the corollary and the proper rule. For example, some articles go to VfD (new anti-semitism, for example) and have POV pushers and sockpuppets aplenty on both sides. In these cases we must invoke an exception to the corollary of the circumscribed form of the rule. It is at this point that I think we should realize that we're better off trashing the rule altogether, and voting not based on a dubious rule-of-thumb regarding how other votes have been placed, but rather according to the merits of the article. Babajobu 23:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • But this isn't a hypothetical situation with "POV pushers and sockpuppets aplenty on both sides". Is it? — P Ingerson (talk) 23:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, non-notable forum. Martg76 21:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, more notable articles have faced deletion than this thing. let it go. 12:18, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • You say that like it's a good thing. Stop deleting notable articles. You do not own wikipedia, and are yourselves neither notable, nor especially good judges of notability.
    • You know that for sure? If sounds a lot like a Personal Attack on a lot of these voters to me. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 12:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • These are the same people who call non-sockpuppets sockpuppets. I voted to keep and was instantly mis-identified as a sock puppet by one of these crack investigators. Many voters seem to not have even read the trolltalk entry. They make false accusations about GNAA association, and persue vendettas against trolls in general which clouds this vote. Their judgement deeserves to be questioned.
      • (Unsigned Post by Bit trollent)
        • Comment Until this vendetta against trolls ends and Wikipedia regains their impartial nature, this site will continue to be considered a joke in the vast sea of reference material available on the Internet. For Wikipedia to gain notoriety, these vendettas have to end.
        • To quote WP:NPA "There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them." So frankly, that doesn't matter. There is never an excuse. Besides, if you are not a sockpuppet, your contributions prove you are a Meatpuppet. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 13:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
          • Meatpuppet?! You have just made a personal attack! Rather than respond to what you said, I will just express my outrage at your personal attack. Do not do it! Do not read it! Delete it! --bit trollent
            • "Meatpuppet" is an accepted term in a Wikipedia policy. (WP:SOCK) If you object to it, I suggest you either try to change Wikipedia's Sock Puppet policy or else make some serious contributions. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Not notable. Wikipedia is not a Slashdot encyclopedia. May deserve a brief mention at Slashdot. Delete or redirect (and possibly merge). - Mike Rosoft 23:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, however, and being such it should contain articles on a wide variety of topics. Again, by deleting this, Wikipedia shows a bias toward the editors and "group think" mentality of Slashdot. While a large amount of Trolls have a destructive nature, many posters on Slashdot are classified as Trolls simply because they do not agree with the standard line of thinking agreed with by many of its regulars. Trolling is and shall most likely always be a large portion of the Slashdot culture, and deleting this article harms the impartiality of Wikipedia and punishes many because of the actions of a few.
• Merge and redirect with the main Slashdot article. Cleduc 00:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, sockpuppet magnet. Capitalistroadster 01:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete not notable, or merge in Slashdot. Tuf-Kat 01:52, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete non notable forum. JamesBurns 06:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, please do not feed the trolls. —Stormie 09:21, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, sockpuppetry Proto 10:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete IMO, NN --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 21:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Sockpuppets burn in wikihell. --Scimitar 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment This is unprofessional and juvenile. Try to keep your comments at least somewhat mature. Is there a maturity policy here that would prevent users like this guy from expressing their somewhat tactless opinions?
    • Wikipedia is not my profession. Wikihell, furthermore does not exist, except as an abstract, ie. wikihell- the place where voters are whose votes are disregarded because they are examples of sockpuppetry. Additionally, I might point out that if you were offended by my comment, you admit to being a sockpuppet, as I said only sockpuppets burn in this fictional place. If you aren't one, it doesn't apply to you, does it? --Scimitar 22:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Unencyclopedic Barneygumble 21:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Votes to keep

• Keep. Trolltalk is rather known throughout the Slashdot community. Slashdot editors don't pay attention to anything, as any regular will tell you, by the number of duplicate stories and the occasional brokenness of the website, like the search feature. -- claviola (talk to me) 21:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Other more influential and important online forums have had their articles deleted. TrollTalk is not noteworthy enough based on those standards. Afcassidy 2:55, 18 June 2005

Afcassidy, it's obvious that you have a vendetta against this topic for some reason and your motives should be questioned before this inquisition continues.

Proof or STFU, n00b.

• Keep, the trolltalk sid: a) is the oldest continuously used thread on Slashdot, b) has the highest post count of any thread on slashdot, despite regular purges, c) if it wasn't purged its post count would be astronomical, six figures or more, d) is the only "hidden", user-created thread left on slashdot, and as such is a historical curiousity if nothing else. Notable. --Bk0 15:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. You have got to be kidding me. Someone goes to the trouble of creating an free encyclopedia and some clowns just see it as an opportunity to go around telling peope that their interests are not not notable. All this information on things I don't care about is driving me crazy! I must delete it! I'm not trying to troll here, but good lord. What is wrong with you people? Addendum 17:46, Jun19, 2005: I am not a sock puppit. I am a slashdot user (http://slashdot.org/~bit%20trollent) with a normal if occasionally trollish posting history. I am not, nor is trolltalk affiliated with the GNAA. Get over yourselves. --bit trollent 17:14, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment -- this vote was cast shortly after a "call to arms" was posted in the Trolltalk forum (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=20721&cid=12856190) asking for help to derail the VfD - you can expect many sock-puppet accounts to be created over the new few days for purposes of voting "keep" on this article. Trolltalk is affiliated with the GNAA, which has used sock-puppets, spamming, and intimidation to survive four votes for deletion, bragging about "defeating Wikipedia" (http://www.gnaa.us/pr.phtml?troll=gnaa-wikipedia) after each one.
    • Comment -- There is no established connection between the GNAA and Trolltalk. I urge whoever posted this to keep arguments for deciding the fate of this article based in fact and reality and not about some mindless vendetta against the GNAA. Attempting to invoke the name of this troll group in an attempt at using the emotions of other Wikipedia readers against this article is not only unprofessional, it is out of line and clearly juvenile.
      • Comment -- The close affiliation between Trolltalk and the GNAA is obvious to anyone who is familiar with either of them and can be easily proven by searching the Trolltalk Archive for GNAA and taking a look at some of the results. Although the archives don't go back this far, many will recall that the GNAA was born on Trolltalk, and even though they now have off-site forums most Trolltalk people are still GNAA.
        • Comment -- Can you provide proof that most "Trolltalk people" are GNAA? If not, I suggest you attempt to keep your comments to facts next time, please. This is a serious matter and it's not right for you to lie in an attempt to keep your POV the dominate one.
• Del... I mean, keep, or er, comment, I guess, since I'm inevitably going to be accused to be a GNAA sock-puppet. I think you're all a bunch of retards. All of you who take this internet crap seriously. Honestly, what the hell? Go out to a club, get some woman drunk and have sex already. Trust me, you'll feel much better after you dip your shlong into a female creature for the first time, and suddenly, you won't care anymore if there's an article about trolltalk on your crappy internet encyclopaedia (which I've subtly vandalized in several ways btw, just for fun). Uh oh, but what have I just done? This comment is against wikipedia guidelines! Quick, someone nominate it on Comments for Deletion! Hahaha. Jesus. -- Who The Fuck Cares 00:01, 1 Jan 1970
  • Comment -- votes from anonymous users are not counted, also, everyone should be made aware that the term "female creature" is taken directly from the movie with a very offensive title (which I won't repeat here) which the GNAA is based around. The heroes of that movie have never encountered women before, and when one of them does encounter one, they all make a big show out of shouting "female creatures!" in shock and alarm.
  • Comment -- Why should we be aware of that? I can't see why anyone should care. MrVacBob 17:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment -- It is evidence that Trolltalk is part of (or at least strongly aligned with) the GNAA, a group that has abused Wikipedia quite extensively and gone to great measures to keep its vanity articles up and that has publically announced itself as an enemy of Wikipedia.
      • Comment -- There is no evidence that trolltalk has anything to do with GNAA, other than the fact that they both troll slashdot. By all accounts GNAA hardly uses trolltalk at all, other than crapflooding it when a GNAA member is insulted. Stop with the paranoid generalizations. --Bk0 20:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • Comment -- Trolltalk/GNAA connection. Please review these two-thousand three-hundred sixty-eight comments and let me know what conclusions you draw from them.
          • Comment A counterexample to invalidate your point: the KKK talks chiefly about blacks, but they aren't affiliated with them. Thanks for playing though.
          • Comment -- Congratulations on demonstrating that GNAA members post on trolltalk. It is a PUBLIC forum, genius. Anybody can post there. By your logic, the dozens of forums that have been vandalized by the GNAA are also affiliated with the GNAA. Search slashdot for GNAA and you will find similar results. But that's not what this is really about is it? You people have a vendetta against trolls. Stop deleting perfectly accurate, valid and valuble information just because you hate trolls.
• Keep. User:Abortion 19 June 2005 Trolltalk is an informative article and not a troll. Why then, should it be deleted?
  • Comment -- New user, probable sock puppet.
• Keep I don't see any reason for it to not be there. MrVacBob 17:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep In retrospect, I believe that the trolltalk article should be kept. I'm sorry for any confusion this may have caused. Afcassidy 12:48, 17 June 2005
  • WARNING -- This is a fake vote not cast by Afcassidy but by the anonymous vandal 66.82.9.80 who has vandalized this page several times. Please check all votes carefully to make sure they were actually added by the person "signing" them and not forged by the anonymous vandal, who will probably continue this foolishness. Proof of vandalism.
• Keep it real now y'all
  • Vote by anon user 66.82.9.80 Celestianpower 17:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. No reason whatsoever for it to be deleted. (See comments below) Babajobu 17:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie ^TALK 18:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, well-known and verifiable trolling phenomenon. Rhobite 21:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable part of internet/slashdot culture. Useful article, informative. --Timecop 11:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. If it has already survived a VfD, then I don't see why we're here in the first place. The maxim, "If at first you don't succeed, try try again" was not written to cover attempts to delete another's work. Almafeta 23:46, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment We are here because Afcassidy has some sort of vendetta against Trolltalk. More than likely, he will continue to attempt to delete this article until he succeeds. I think someone needs to possibly scrutinize his motives in this deletion attempt.
    • Comment This is a lie -- you've failed to produce any evidence that Afcassidy was even AWARE of the previous VfD, or that Afcassidy has any personal interest in the article or that any form of bias or vendetta exists. It seems to me to be a case of someone who sees an article that he/she feels shouldn't be there and takes the logical step. Please stop with the unsubstantiated allegations; you're just making the entire pro-Trolltalk crowd look foolish.
      • Comment I'm not a member of the "pro-Trolltalk" crowd; I am a member of the "pro-Impartiality" crowd. I was mistaken about the Afcassidy link. However, there is much more logical grounding in keeping the article than in deleting it. I could see deleting this article if it were somehow consuming a large portion of the Wiki's resources or if it were obscene in some way, but this article does neither. By deleting this article, you're showing that you're biased toward the entire "Slashbotism" thing that most trolls are against. In regard to failing to provide any evidence that bias exists, look throughout this page. Many accusations are made linking Trolltalk to GNAA. This is obviously not the case, yet I do not see you policing these edits as you have mine. That alone shows some bias (perhaps not much) on your part.
  • Comment The last VfD was over a year ago; many things can change in a year. Furthermore, last time around there weren't a lot of people who wanted to keep the article -- more supported deleting it and some others wanted to merge the information into other articles. But with the vote split like that, there was no clear consensus and thus, for the time being, nothing at all was done.
    • Comment Correct, and now there is a significant number of users who want to keep the article, and a lot of spirited debate around the VfD. That alone speaks in favor of keeping the article, since the only legitimate reason for deletion now would be a vendetta against the subject matter. If Trolltalk wasn't notable there wouldn't be half the number of votes and comments here. --Bk0 02:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Rgoer 14:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Note: Rgoer has only 3 contributions possible sock/meatpuppet? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 14:24, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Comments not connected to votes

• Comment Oops, sorry. My penis isn't small enough to contribute to this discussion. I should like to point out however that you are all being trolled by the nominator, who also posted the comment on trolltalk about this vfd, keeps vandalising this page through anon proxies and vehemently replies to all keep votes with his typical "blah blah wikipedia is what I think it should be" bullshit. GJ.

Unsigned comment from 206.51.237.44 (talk · contribs), the fourth edit from that IP address.

• Comment This is the second attempt by Afcassidy to delete this article. I suggest that he has a bias in this regard and his integrity and motives should be questioned and taken into account before you vote.
  • Comment This is incorrect; the previous VfD was not by Afcassidy. For some reason the info about previous VfD (2004) on the Trolltalk talk page included the text of this VfD (2005) by mistake.
• Comment Congratz to whoever just deleted a string of legitimate comments, both Keep and Delete. Here was mine: Obviously no one who believes in Wikipedia believes, as Paul M claims to, that Wikipedia should include articles on anything and everything. But it really is starting to feel like Wikipedia is being taken over by people who think the project should only include articles on topics like Frederick the Great and China and Atomic theory, because these are the types of articles contained in dinosaur, Gutenberg, pre-internet encyclopedias like Brittanica. Like the hidebound architects in Ayn Rand stories who use fabulous new materials in the same tired way they used older, weaker materials. Grow an imagination, you deletionist fanatics!! Babajobu 21:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Comment, My ISP, Comcast has a dynamic IP system. Just because we share the same IP doesn't mean we are the same person. Wikipedia is pretty popular you know. You've grown so paranoid with vandalism you've lost your ways Wikipedia. Anyway my comment was not to keep everything. But to keep things that are useful. And indeed trolltalk is a useful article that contains information on a well-known subculture. Also I'd like to add I'm a long time slashdot user (http://slashdot.org/~Stalyn) - Paul M.
  • The deltionist tendencies of Wikipedia as a whole can be clearly seen from the consensus decisions to: a) keep every single school, regardless of notability, because some people like them, and b) keep pokemon, digimon, and whatever other irrelevant fancruft may be out there. So, although I am a deletionist, Wikipedia as a whole is, perhaps, not so hide-bound as is claimed.--Scimitar 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Yeah let's delete trolltalk but keep your entry on Sean Brown.. who sucks and doesn't even play in the NHL anymore. Are you related to him or something? - Paul M.
• Comment How can you have a category Internet Trolls (which Wikipedia has) and exclude Trolltalk from it? Trolltalk is a place where trolls converse, thus being a part of this category. I don't see anyone trying to delete Meow_Wars, which is most definitely not as notable as Trolltalk.
  • Comment Trolltalk has next to nothing to do with trolling, it's just one of millions of no-topic social discussion boards out there, with the major difference that it's even smaller, more obscure, harder to find, and of even less consequence than the majority of the aforementioned millions. And if you think the "Meow Wars" entry should be deleted you're free to register an account & nominate it for VfD (I think anonymous VfD nominations don't count).
    • Comment. And when Meow Wars was nominated for VfD we didn't have various Meowers and their socks trying to disrupt the vote. I think that's one reason why it survived. — P Ingerson (talk) 21:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment You're part of the reason why Wikipedia has problems. This deletionist frame of mind isn't helping anyone. Again, the article survived a VfD before, so why are we even here? I predict that if the VfD fails this time, someone will just attempt one again and will keep trying to delete this article until they succeed.

• New Sockpuppet Alert -- Trolltalk is rallying its supporters again to come to Wikipedia to derail the VfD.
  • How do we know you didn't post that or the first one to make it look like the keep votes are sockpuppets? also 1) I don't think many trolltalk posters care enough to come here and subvert the voting process 2) trolltalk posters are not a group with common interests beyond trolling, it's likely that they would come here and post anti-trolltalk comments in order to "troll" the poster of the rallying call.
• (This comment was added by 4.253.45.144, then deleted by 66.82.9.11) --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 12:58, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)