Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denial of Soviet occupation

Denial of Soviet occupation

Reason: already deleted (as Soviet occupation denialism). This article is a re-creation of a recently deleted (see discussion) POV fork, created by a number of closely associated accounts (Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Digwuren, Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX, Martintg, Alexia Death), based in Estonia, representing extreme nationalist point of view. We already have numerous relevant articles and POV forks Occupation of Baltic states, Soviet occupations (created by the same user), Soviet occupations of Latvia, Soviet occupation of Estonia and many others, covering the question. The accounts created a mob and promoted the article to GA shortly (several hours) after creation (there was a mutual personal agreement to promote each other's POV articles between reviewers [1]), altough the decision was quickly revised. I was unable to put deletion template into the article as it is now blocked due to permanent edit-war. The creator of the article has been recently unblocked from a two-week block only to give him ability to participate in an arbcom case opened against him (see blocklog:[2]). He also already has been blocked for re-creation of deleted articles. Besides i want to note that the very name of the article is inherently POV as it recalls associations with Holocaust denial.--Dojarca 08:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I have some issues some of the inaccuracies of the nomination

• It is a re-creation of a recently deleted article. Apparently there are significant differences between the this and the deleted article. No policy against creating improved articles that are sunstantially different to the deleted article.
• created by a number of closely associated accounts based in Estonia. Actually only one individual created this article
• The accounts created a mob and promoted the article to GA. Only a single person handled the GA process, the creator. Martintg 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: see also Wikipedia:Good article reassessment#Denial of Soviet occupation. Also, several administrators have not seen fit to dominate this article to AfD. -- Sander Säde 10:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Digwuren was unblocked not because "only to give him ability to participate in an arbcom case opened against him". Instead he was unblocked because "I've unblocked you in favor of protecting the article, since the edit warring is more extensive among others than I realized, and so that you can keep participating in the ArbCom case", see [3]. Please stop your attempts to paint all Estonian users as some kind of nationalist trolls and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA guidelines (note that there are no edits in the article by me). -- Sander Säde 11:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - OR, POV and since it's already supposed to have been deleted, that'll have to be a delete from me... Spawn Man 08:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You should read the article, it is a total rewrite, not "re-creation" -- Sander Säde 10:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I did read the article, hence the OR & POV issues, but considering that the last article was deleted, I'm going on the nom's word in regard to the recreation of text. OR & POV are still sufficiant enough for me to oppose. Spawn Man 11:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. As nominator very well knows, it is a total rewrite where issues described in previous AfD are addressed. Article is very well sourced, and follows WP:NPOV guideline by also describing contradicting viewpoints. Article contains no original research, but is annoying to a well-known group of Soviet supporters, who try to get this article deleted no matter what, only reason being WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Validity of the topic cannot be questioned, as shown by multitude of sources. Also, nominator should be reported for gross personal attacks, knowingly promoting lies and ethnical hatred. -- Sander Säde 10:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  "Denial of Soviet occupation is the revisionist concept..." - is it NPOV? --Dojarca 10:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Care to show, which part of the WP:NPOV guideline it breaks? There is no "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" clause there. -- Sander Säde 10:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It presents opinion as a fact.--Dojarca 10:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the article attempts to present the fact of the opinion, which is perfectly acceptable. Martintg 03:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Dojarca there SS. Besides, I really don't think that arguing we're all Pro-Soviet is a legitimate argument do you? If no one else, I have given rationale as to why the article should be deleted and I didn't even comment on the last AfD. You could say that I was an unbiased party before this AfD. Spawn Man 11:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

See [4] - version that was accepted as GA. In my opinion it is quite a lot better, then the current protected version. -- Sander Säde 11:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I still would have voted delete then too as POV. If the article is a complete rewrite, then how come this POV sentence still exists in the current article as it did in the old version? "Soviet Union was a strongly ideology-based regime with peculiar ideas..." Peculiar etc? "As of 2007, Russia is the only country in Europe to maintain this denial..." The article keeps on barraging the reader with anti-Soviet text; that is why it's POV. It needs to be neutral. C'mon guys, I thought the Cold War finished ages ago! Spawn Man 11:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"As of 2007, Russia is the only country in Europe to maintain this denial..." is both sourced and fact, how is it not neutral? -- Sander Säde 11:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The only source for that is a phrase by Estonian nationalist politician Tunne Kelam. Is it reliable source for you?--Dojarca 11:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a non-Russian source that either calls Tunne Kelam "nationalist politician" or tells that there is another country in Europe, that denies occupation (very probably Belorussia does, as it is under dictatorship as well)? -- Sander Säde 12:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The statement is unsourced and you indirectly accept it by asking for a non-Russian source. An Estonian politician cannot be taken as neutral by the same rationale: he is an involved party here and has an inherent conflict of interest. --Yury Petrachenko 12:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay guys, stop. Sander Säde, you're being way too argumentative in regard to this AfD; calling us Soviet lovers, replying to everything, making obviously inflammatory remarks when a user gives their rationale etc etc. Please stop. It's an article on an online encyclopedia! Who cares? If you're going to get all wrapped up about it, I'd suggest everyone else stops replying to Sander, and you Sander, should occupy your time on Wikipedia with another endevour. I'm sure there's another article out there you'd rather be editing or which could need your help? Anyway, guys, just cool it. Regards, Spawn Man 12:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Simply because I don't think there's enough here to make a separate article. The title says "Denial of Soviet occupation" yet very little in the article focuses on the denial of the Soviet invasion(s) and rule in the Baltic States (which seems to be the chief concern here). As the nominator says "We already have relevant articles Occupation of Baltic states, Soviet occupation of Latvia, Soviet occupation of Estonia and many others, covering the question". Any valuable material should be moved to the appropriate pages. --Folantin 10:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as a synthesized original research article. Looking through the related articles it clearly is a POV fork. - Peripitus (Talk) 11:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete with fire, this screams POV-fork and original synthesis. I've deleted this rubbish once and it's tedious to have to do so again. Any material of any repute can be used elsewhere. Moreschi ^Talk 12:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Question, If it is a POV fork, what's the alternative view? I thought NPOV was about representing all significant viewpoints, so presumably there is some other views that is not expressed in this article if it is considered POV.Martintg 13:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as POV, trolling, OR and violating just about every policy WP has. Recreation of deleted content too btw. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 13:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this is a WP:POVFORK and re-creation of a deleted article (which already warrants it for speedying). - Francis Tyers · 13:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• This article has been totally re-written, not a simple re-creation. I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Because denial of Soviet occupation is a notable issue in politics, in Latvia at least. Maybe the issue wasn't that notable when the previous article was deleted, but it became notable just days after that, as it was one of the main issues in Latvian presidental election debate, after it was discovered that one of the candidates had denied occupation, in fact it was the pretext why he wasn't elected. I saw the previous article - it was different. I see issues of POV - the article favours the view that occupations did take place, thus all oppinions are not taken into account - but these could be worked with ---- Xil...sist! 13:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Comment We already have numerous articles of the topic. This can well be described in Occupation of Latvia. Existance of this article is a source for permanent edit war.--Dojarca 17:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think so - what we have is nummerous articles on occupations of this and occupations of that - those are historical events. Denial of Soviet occupation in turn is a modern concept in politics. This isn't about whether there was or was not any occupation, but about the fact that there is an argument in which one side denies that there was occupation. The article is POVish (starting with "revisionist" and "echoed" in the lead) and has redundant sections (namely how the hell is "Economic background" connected with this ?), it should be worked with, but I think that the concept is notable enough to have it. ---- Xil...sist! 18:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not a "modern concept" but one of the mainstram points of view all after the WWII.--Dojarca 18:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"Modern" in sence still important, and if it exists for 60 years as you imply surely that is another proof that it is important and could be improved beyond POV and OR -- Xil...sist! 20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep: if there are problems with POV, it is not criteria for deletion. SpeedKing1980 14:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • POV problems that cannot be solved are criteria for deletion. Moreschi ^Talk 18:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    The criteria for deletion here is not POV issues but that the article is a POV fork. Read the prevous deletion discusson please.--Dojarca 18:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• The article is not a POV fork, see Wikipedia:Content_forking#What_content/POV forking is not. Martintg 23:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, POV fork, recreation of deleted content, synthesis. Strongly tempted to speedy it. Neil ム 15:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Original research. The article is not legitimately created - it is a bunch of POV and dubiously phrased garbage and synthesis (my favourite is the creation of a specious Wikiquote page to lend this rubbish some legitimacy). But it will no doubt get kept, as I see the hordes of meatpuppets have now arrived. Neil ム 08:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• That is a rather uncivil comment Neil, do you regularly call those who don't agree with your viewpoint "meatpuppets"? Some people tell me that your speedy delete of Estophilia was an abuse of admin privileges, is that true? Martintg 09:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• keep per Xil, as a main issue in Latvian Presidential elections, noteworthy though this will need cleanup. Chris 16:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Comment I would like to note that the current name of the article makes associations with Holocaust denial, so it is essentially POV as existance of Holocaust is a non-controversial concept while occupatin of the Baltics is.--Dojarca 17:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• The occupation of the Baltics is not a controversial subject in academic literature, the controversy only exists within some sections of the Wikipedia community. Martintg 23:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• keep, many Western news outlets reported on Russias policy of denial of Soviet occupation and some anaylses have been done by some think tanks, so it is definitely notable. POV issues are not a criteria for deletion either. Martintg 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Numerous sources presented exclude OR. POV is not a criteria for deletion, not that I'm saying its a valid concern. The previous article was deleted as NEOLOGISM, this article is free of that fault, thus no grounds for deletion.--Alexia Death the Grey 17:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  The prevous article was deleted as POV fork. It is clearly visible from the discussion page. This article is nothing less POV fork than the prevous one.--Dojarca 18:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Then do answer, POV fork of what? --Alexia Death the Grey 04:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Funny how revisionist concept almost never fails to equate to troublesome Wikipedia article. Delete per Grafikm. ~ Riana ⁂ 18:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Well referenced. IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument for deletion.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Far too POV for inclusion. Definitely not neutral. Captain panda 20:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Wikipedia:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• That quote you have states that the article must have the point of view subject expressed neutrally and that it should cross-reference other articles with different points of view. The neutrality in that article is not very high and the articles linked to with other points of view have disputed neutrality tags on them. Captain panda 02:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Your point is well taken, but I don't believe lack of neutrality is sufficient ground for deletion. What improvements do you suggest to increase the level of neutrality? Note that all a tag indicates is that there is no concensus among editors that an article is neutral, nothing more, it only takes one dissenting editor to tag an article. No doubt creationist would view the article Evolution and not neutral, and vice versa and we would have endless tag wars as a result. That is why Wikipedia has this principle I quoted above. Martintg 02:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• I would like to point out that just because an article covers a controversial topic does not necessarily mean that it lacks neutrality. For example, the articles that you gave me, Evolution and Creationism, do not have neutrality tags. As for improvements to help the neutrality, I would first suggest confirming or removing the many disputed references in the article. Also, various statements such as "The Soviet regime, in a classic way of totalitarianism", should be rephrased. In addition, though it only takes one editor to add such a tag, it only takes one to remove it if it foolishly placed. The tag has to have some merit or it would have been removed quite some time ago. Captain panda 03:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the feed back, I'll chase up those issues you mentioned. A number of editors below like Irpen, believes denial of Soviet occupation is a valid topic, and I believe the article can be improved further, so under those circumstances you would keep? Martintg 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletions. — _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - a valid topic. There was a lot of media frenzy in May of 2005 as Russia celebrated 50th anniversary of WWII end. There are plenty of sources - BBC, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. - to back up the claim. In no way it is original research. Renata 23:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • A valid topic indeed. However, this by itself is not the justification for an article to be kept. An imaginary article on valid topic titled, say, Latvian Academy of Art must also contain valid content to be kept. If one feels this red link with "poop" or "I love Latvian art", and no one restarts the garbage from scratch before AfD closure, the junk gets deleted no matter how valid the topic is.
  • The question one must ask is whether the article in the current state has a basis for improvement or is it a total junk and the potential article on such valid topic would have to be rewritten from scratch. The article's claimed wide scope is not supported by the sources it uses. The article's statements disagree with the sources allegedly used and none of this content can be reused.
  • AfD process is not based on the validity of the topic. It is about the validity of the article in its current form and, if it is totally out of whack (like this one) whether it is improvable as is or whether it would have to be rewritten, like in this case. --Irpen 01:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

To compare a serious article to a poop is a really interesting way of conversation. Congratulations Tymek 02:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not make such comparison. I merely stated that the validity of the topic is not enough reason to keep. The validity of the article as of the time of the AfD is needed. --Irpen 02:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference between a topic and an article? If the topic of the denial of Soviet occupation is valid as you say, then why wouldn't the article be ammenable to improvement? Martintg 03:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

If the valid article on a valid topic would have to be written from scratch and the current state of it is useless for the future article, as I believe it is, it cannot be called "amenable to improvement". The topic is "amenable to coverage" is not the same as the article in the form as of AfD being usable for such coverage. I am not suggesting to salt the Earth and prevent the article's recreation. I am merely commenting on the article we have, not the encyclopedic potential of the topic. If you are willing to completely rewrite it and replace the nonsense whose citations do not even support it with a short but valid stub, I would change my vote to keep. I do not oppose the very existence of the article under this title. I am only commenting on the article in its current shape and form. When my substub on a totally valid topic was deleted based on this discussion I did not have a problem with that. The main qualm of those who voted delete was not lack of the subject's validity, but lack of the content's validity and usefulness at the time of AfD. If anyone ever rewrites that redirect into a valid article, I am sure it would survive. Same here. I call for the deletion of the useless junk in its current form and shape only. I do not call for the protection of the redlink from recreation unless it becomes abusive. This is only a second recreation. So, it is too early to Salt the Earth. --Irpen 03:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Captain panda has already offered some suggestions for improvement and your inline tags you added today are a great help too. Thanks. Martintg 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I have never seen any Nazi/German sources denying their occupation of the Netherlands, Denmark and other countries. Yet Soviet/Russian sources and politicians consistently denying their occupation of the Baltic States are numerous and as such should be mentioned. This article is very-well referenced and it touches a very important yet neglected subject Tymek 00:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Renata, Tymek, and the others. CRGreathouse (t | c) 01:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. A very real and noteworthy topic, which deserves to be presented encyclopedically. The admitted issues with POV, style and perhaps inappropriate syntheses of sources are no reason to delete an article, rather to improve it. The fact that a handful of editors apparently prefer that the entire issue not be mentioned at all is hardly a valid rationale for outright deletion. K. Lásztocska 04:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Emphatic keep - this is a well-referenced, reasonably neutral article on a very valid topic. Can it be improved? Sure. But that's not reason to delete - indeed the main "delete" rationale appears to be an ill-concealed wish to suppress discussion of Communist atrocities. Let's not succumb to this desire. Biruitorul 04:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The denial of Soviet occupations and on-going history falsification in Russia is a topic that has been frequently reported in the media in many countries (Sweden, UK, Finland, Poland, Estonia come to mind). This is a very real phenomenon and one that is causing more and more concern, not unlike Holocaust denial. The effort to have this article removed looks very much like a part of the campaign to deny and falsify the history of the USSR. JdeJ 08:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep per JdeJ. I would also like to note that someone already used this argument here: "Occupation denial can't exist because there was no occupation". :) One of the reasons why Estonia didn't criminalize holocaust denial is the fact that public demanded criminalization of occupation denial in the same run. That, in turn, would have caused panic in russia again. The problem is definitely notable and also present in Wikipedia editors. Suva Чего? 08:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per my nomination of the predecessor article. The non-notable historical construct has obvious neo-Nazi connotations and Holocaust denial issues. The supposed "denial" of a controversial and self-contradictory concept, known either as liberation of Eastern Europe from the Nazis or "Soviet occupation", is overtly patterned upon and conflated with Holocaust denial (see the posts above), ergo, the Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe is put on the same footing as the Holocaust. The unique nature of the Holocaust is thereby diluted to make room for comparisons with what the current governments (the Kasczynski tandem, Rein Lang, etc) deem pertinent and appropriate for promoting their political ends. As a result, war criminals (such as Ain-Ervin Mere) end up by being absolved of gassing prisoners in the concentration camps, the extermination of the entire Jewish population of Estonia, etc, and recast as "freedom fighters". This is pretty disgusting, as is the penchant of folks to opine along pre-established ethnic lines, something which brings the entire AfD process into disrepute. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yawn. Trying to derail this debate with your transparent provocations? Martintg 10:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Martin, another incivil remark - and I will ask an administrator to interfere. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Just a POV fork of Occupation of Baltic states with false generalization.Anonimu 10:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Inheritantly POV title, I would vote the same way for the Denial of minorities right violation in Baltic state or Denial of Estonian-Nazi connections, etc. Alex Bakharev 10:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Granted. The loaded term "denial" has been selected by authors on purpose to evoke associations with the Holocaust denial (it's the same guys who arranged the deletion of Category:Holocaust in Estonia). This reminds me of the Wikipedia:Allegations of allegations of apartheid apartheid saga. What's next, Denial of Soviet occupaion denial? --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Valid topic as both Renata and Irpen have agreed. Martintg 10:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)