Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)

Tobi's Mangekyou

At the end of Chapter 370, if you look at Tobi's Sharingan it appears to be the same type of Mangekyou Sharingan as Itachi's. I happened to be reading a smaller edition of the chapter but after close inspection it's unmistakable. Of course, it (could) just be Kishimoto drawing small due of a lack of space, but atm it is safe to assume that Tobi has access to the Mangekyou. AnimeNikkaJamal 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just regular Sharingan. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

(Link: [1] ) That appears to be a Mangekyou similar to Itachi's. If you disagree or think this picture is false, show me to another picture (of the same page in the chapter). AnimeNikkaJamal 23:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

OMG He's right! I cant belive I didnt notice sooner! Look, Kakashi's looked different to Itachi's first off. Plus, the one we saw breifly in the VOTE battle (Sasuke's M. Sharingan perhaps?) also appeared different. So thats at least 3 different Mangekyo Sharingan. Whats not to say their is another? Granted, at this point it can be considered Speculation, but it also cannot be ruled out.--Chipmonk328 17 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.107.129 (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

And WHERE and WHEN exactly did we see sasuke's MS? I believe i posted about this in one of the earlier discussions, so go look it up. Has anyone here personally SEEN an original image of sasuke supposed "brief" MS? Does it appear at the END of the battle or the middle or what? there isn't any proof. I even went through the episodes (briefly) and even watched the climax nearly frame by frame (if anyone could catch the MS by watching the show at normal speed, they would most likely have sharingan themselves). So don't quote things you read on any old website, only verifiable sources. And no Tobi does not have MS, take a closer look at a scanlated version of CH370.N Dot W 03:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

By "VOTE battle", I'm assuming you mean the Top 5 Battles special near the end of the fillers. There was no MS displayed; that was simply Sasuke's two-tomoe Sharingan developing into a three-tomoe Sharingan. You Can't Review Me!!! 03:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Valley of the end battle? lol. Near the end. I could be wrong. But thats what has been stated.--Chipmonk328

i cant remember where i saw, but i remember like a swirly vortex "thing" coming from what appeared to be tobi's mask. Does anyone know what im talking about, does anyone know what that wasThreatening force 03:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The mask is a swirly vortex thing. It's a very clever use of a mask i must say. The spiral draws your eyes to the center which is coincidentally Tobi's Sharingan eye, so by looking at his face you automatically look at his eye and then it's Genjutsu time. It's a optical trick and Tobi is just briliant. I thought his mask was stupid at first but it's just the opposite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote: No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That's what you've seen so far. The previous Mangekyou have filled pupils but who's to say Tobi's doesn't? Remember, the Mangekyou design was dynamic between Kakashi and Itachi, so it's perfectably plusible that Tobi has a Sharingan different than the standard. AnimeNikkaJamal 23:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

But if it looks like a normal sharingan then it's still just a normal sharingan. Tobi has yet to activate the Mangekyo Sharingan, however resonable it is to expect him to have it it's still speculation. The strain of Mangekyo is not something to be taken so lightly that he'd activate it for no reason. It's something that is kept inactive until it is used to attack exclusively.

The only problem is that it doesn't look like a normal sharingan. If you look at the picture (here for instance) you can obviously see that Tobi's sharingans' Tomoes are interconnected. That looks nothing like the first 3 levels of the sharingan so it must be something else, most presumably a different looking Mangekyo sharingan.Naruto Tron 21:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Sharingan always look like that when appearing in a relatively small panel. Compare Tobi's Sharingan to the Sharingan seen in chapter 367, or any other chapter for that matter. ~SnapperTo 04:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Distinction between Madara and Tobi

To begin with, I am not adding another "Tobi isn't Madara" comment. As of now, the section on Tobi seems to refer to the behaviors he displayed before he was revealed to have authority over Pein and afterword almost interchangibly. For instance, after the article states that he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha, the following sentence goes on to describe the carefree personality he desplayed as "Tobi". In addition, this sections ends by stating that he is implied to be relatively young, despite the fact that Madara was stated to live at the founding of Konaha. What I am suggesting is that this section be reorganized slightly as to enstablish a clear distiction between the personality he displays while interacting with the Akatsuki members, and his personality as "Madara". 66.24.226.134 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we do what One Piece did and split the information between Tobi's Akatsuki section and Madara's Land of Fire section, like they did with the CP9 members. Just give the information above the guise of Tobi to Akatsuki and about Madara to Land of Fire, and link to the other sections. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 13:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a wise idea, as pretty much the manga says "Tobi is Madara" blah blah blah. No need to link to something we know next to nothing about. I say just make it clear that Tobi is a guise of Madara or (most likely) a split personality that he has control over. --TheUltimate3 15:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I more or less agree with what TheUltimate3 suggested, in that the description of Tobi/Madara should not be split up between two pages. Again, what I was preposing was that the personality he displayed as "Tobi", and all the attributes applied to him by others (carefree and goofy, is 'a good boy') be distinguished from how he presented himself while talking with Pein and Konan, regardless of whether the Tobi persona was an elaborate disguise, a dual personality, or any other interpretation (although it would be too soon to mention any of these theories, as they are just that, fan theories). In the same vain that Keyser Söze would not be described as a small time con artist afflicted with cerebral palsy, neither should Madara be described as a carefree and childlike character, unless he is revealed to have behaved as such prior to joining Akatsuki.66.24.226.134 18:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what he may or may not have called himself you should not be calling Tobi Uchioha Madara until he takes the mask off and proves it. At the end of 370 Kishimoto left his identity ambiguous, not saying his name at all but calling him "he". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 13:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, anything else is Original Research, and I don't even need to link you there to know that it is not allowed on wikipedia. Arukan Harless 18:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

But what was mentioned in the opening post was that this was not meant to be another debate as to Tobi's identity, rather it was a suggestion that the section on Tobi clearly distinguish between the personality Tobi presents to Akatsuki, and his personality while speaking to Pein and while standing at the Madara statue. If one wanted to discuss whether or not Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga proves Tobi to be Madara, or if his identity is still undetermined, there are likely dosens of other places to discuss that. In my opinion the article ought to have a structure akin to "When first introduced Tobi...[description of his being presented as carefree and goofy, brightening the orginization, being referred to as 'a good boy', etc]" and in a seperate paragraph have "Following Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein orders, and refers to himself/ infers himself to be Madara Uchiha...[description of him as much more serious and arrogant, utilizing the Sharingan, etc]". This exact wording probably wouldn't work for the article, but this general structure might clarify to readers that Tobi does indeed undergo a significant change in behavior. 66.24.227.23 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Well actually tobi said the power my power uchiha madaras power I maybe think that madaras spirit is inside obitos body why else is there a slight personality change and tobi and madara look nothing alike he looks exactly like obito look the name obi(tobi) madara might be using obitos body plus why else would tobis mask have an eye that reveals his right eye cause he has no left he gave to kakashi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madara uchia (talk • contribs) 00:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Someone (Its here somewhere. Not going to look.) gave a good reason as to why, sort of a Ninja tactic, the swirl automatically leads you to that eye, without thinking. All he has to do is activate the Sharingan and boom, you're Genjutsued without knowing he even activated the Sharingan. That being said, we don't actually know what Tobi looks like under that mask, he could have gotten an haircut and put on the mask, and acting goofy and then acting serious is no seperate personality, it could easily be a turn from acting to being who you actually are.--TheUltimate3 01:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Pein or Pain?

In both translations that I have read his name is spelled Pain. Is there some overriding authority as to the correct translation somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.33.90 (talk) 03:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no official spelling. "Pein" is merely the more popular choice. ~SnapperTo 03:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If we're going by Japanese spelling, it's "Pein"... "ei" in Japanese is pronounced like "ay" in English. Jazz Band Member 11:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Spelling it phonetically, you'd get Payeen. –Gunslinger47 05:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, after chapter 373, it's pretty obvious it should be Pain. 72.168.196.22 05:06, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's obvious that Nagato chose his name because he said, and I quote "... I just wanna keep them safe, no matter what kind of PAIN I go through." end quote. Doesn't that explain it? Although, i agree with those who might say this is a speculation since pain is an english word, so why would the author choose it in a japanese manga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.214.41 (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

For the same reason he chose "Rock Lee" and "Might Guy". I'm very much in favor of changing it to Pain, especially after 373.HisshouBuraiKen 13:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

And it looks like 374 even further reinforces this through continued references to "growing strong through pain." 69.19.14.44 23:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Add on for Tobi

Shouldn't we mention what Tobi says at the start of ch. 371? "Will Sasuke remain a snake? Or will he shed his skin and become a hawk?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.37 (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

And this matters alot to Tobi because...? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 23:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#IINFO. You need to have a reason to include information, otherwise it's indiscriminate. –Gunslinger47 05:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought it might give hints as to what Tobi's planning. As well as what he wants with Sasuke. It might even hint what WILL happen to Sasuke. However, I'm guessing you guys will think it's too early to add this on right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.204.100.226 (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

how can that hint to anything? and sign your posts--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 05:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

hey, when deidara died and tobi went back to the akatsuki hide out, he mentioned he had the power of uchiha madara, and just recently jiraiya had mentioned there was just only one person who could summon the nine tails, and that was madara! and when naruto was inside the his inner conscious and sasuke had invaded, the nine tailed fox had had noticed sasuke's eyes and had mentioned madara thus making it clear the nine tails had knowledge of madara or they have crossed paths!, thus concluding my theory, TOBI CAN SUMMON THE NINE TAIL FOX! but maybe that is the reason the 4th sealed it in his only son huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codenamenothing (talk • contribs) 17:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Summon and control are two different things. Naruto could summon Gamabunta, but he had no way of controlling him. Regardless, I really don't se ehow this info is mention worthy beyond the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox and Madara Uchiha section.--TheUltimate3 17:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that's just because Gamabunta's weird like that.

well, lets see the ability to summon a force strong enough to destroy an entire village could really be the strongest attack in the show, as too, what are the akatsuki trying to do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It is stated/implied (can't remember which) by Jiraiya that Madara could control the Bijuu with his Sharingan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.143 (talk) 19:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither.If memory serves, Jiraiya believed Madara to be capable of summoning the Nine-tails.Lastbetrayal 00:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Tobi/Madara

isn't it about time we change Tobi's name to "Uchiha Madara"?--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 12:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

no matter what those translators say, we can't be sure. Jazz Band Member 13:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

after everything that has happened i have to say he IS madara--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 00:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say he MAY be Madara. Kishimoto has not said very clearly that he is Madara and he could still very well be someone else. We need to wait until he removed his mask and is identified properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Technically, he refers to himself as Madara, but in that situation, his character is significantly different. We still don't know the entire situation regarding the entire Tobi/Madara duality, so it's best to leave it as "refers to himself as Madara" for now. You Can't See Me! 22:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if you cante tell by now Tobi really isn't Madara. He is trying to reach Madara's power. It is obvious that Tobi is in fact Obito, Kakashi's old teammate. Hence the Sharingan in the opposite eye of Kakashi, and the bolts on his suit holding his body together after his near death experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfox2430 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No, technically he could be saying either "I am" or "This/that". Since the word could go either way, he technically said nothing. Besides Kishimoto made it clear that we don't know who he is at the end of 370. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.21 (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Because we hadn't whored out the Great Kawa's words enough:

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

In short; he didn't just say "I am" or "This/that" he said, like a Bond Villain, he said he was Madara Uchiha.--TheUltimate3 21:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Uchiha Madara is the only person who could summon the Nine Tailed Fox, that is Uchiha Madara's Power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

We still talking about this? I wish scanlations were done via a wiki so that poor, incorrect or outdated translations would not be so persistent. –Gunslinger47 21:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless I'm waiting until the mask comes off. Then I can shrug if you're right, and laugh at you if you're wrong. I personally have no clue, and I'm not willing to just blindly throw all of my consent onto a single sentence. So far it seems, to me at least, that the Kyuubi believes Sasuke is just as capable of controling him as Madara and was saying he has 'the same cursed chakra' as Madara, so why not other Uchiha? The face will tell no lies, while a spoken sentence that 'most likely' says he's Madara could be proven false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.30 (talk) 01:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"The face will tell no lines"? Obviously you weren't watching the articles related to Aaroniero Arleri when he took his mask off. :) –Gunslinger47 03:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't, but he was technically wearing two masks, and he was also technically not entirely lying when he said he was Kaien since Kaine's body technically was his, but for Tobi to be Madara he'd either have to be really old, or in a new body that is not Madara's old body, like say Obito's body or some such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.143 (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, whether, Tobi IS Madara or not, this article reports the truth--that Tobi calls himself Madara. Does that mean it's true? No. We're just reporting the information and it's fine until a new revelation of what Tobi meant. This subject should really be over by now.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to bring this up. On the Japanese forums, there is no translation issue. Most everyone refers to him as Madara. 69.19.14.40 10:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I am Homer Simpson. Does it mean that I'm him just because I said that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.58.134 (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

To quote from the article: "...and he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha." Does the article say, "...he is Madara Uchiha..."? No, I don't believe it does. You Can't See Me! 03:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Pein and Konan as Jiraiya's students

If this translation is in fact accurate, then it would seem that Pein and Konan are likely the other two members of Jiraiya's team: http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter372.msnw 66.24.231.57 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Not confirmed. All we know is that he looked after them. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pein refers ta jiraiya as jiraiya sensei meaning he thought them something and hence can be considered his students —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 (talk) 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

After 373, confirmed, because Yahiko asked Jiraya to train them, and in the flashback-ish part, they attack him, using ninjutsu and such. So doesn't that mean they were taught that? Or are you implying they knew those powerfull jutsus. — Pejmany 20:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I've said this before and i'll say it again, they are not his students. first of all a konoha ninja would not have a gennin team consisting of rain ninja. Secondly he only looked after them for 3 years and taught them ninjutsu. And besides it wasn't only those two. it was Konan, Pein and Yahiko so how could they be his students??? Minato's team is still unknown but i fink they will be revield soon Shadow shinobi 11:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi

They are his students, just not his Konoha Genin team. He taught them Ninjutsu, therefor they are his students. For three years they learned from him, and therefor he was their sensei. No they were not his genin team, or a genin team at all for that matter, but they were his students none the less. Just like Naruto is his student despite him not being in a genin team under the sannin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.145 (talk) 23:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean they weren't his students, I meant that they weren't the other two ninja in jiraiya's genin team. But what you said is completely true. Sign your adds nxt time. Shadow shinobi 20:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi

We need to change Pein because...

Because the machines is still(good)speculation and we don't do speculation. So please change that please and thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverknowndragon (talk • contribs) 18:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

what? explain what you are trying to say, and sign your posts--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 07:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

i took care of it but it said something about pein having six bodies and he could switch them though a machine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So Pein having a new body and him being in a capsule with 6 other bodies is a speculation? I dont understand what you are trying to say. -ScotchMB 21:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

it hasn't be proven yet so it is speculation and he has a new look so far but not a change of body right now

But Pein said that he took out that body to hunt the intruder. -ScotchMB 01:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In the next manga chapter 373, it's revealed that the name of Pein's transformed eyes is Rinnegan(possible traslation) and it's the strongest of the three eye jutsu. So, I guess pretty soon we will need to update Pein's abilities. For more spoiler info check out: http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.210.118 (talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

ye plz add the picture of the outline of the ninja of the "Rinnegan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.137.10 (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I will in about 20 minutes--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If you do upload the Rinnegan image, I feel it would be much more approprate on the Kekkei genkai page than on this one. You Can't See Me! 06:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the name of Pein's Dojutsu Rin'negan, it can be reasonably assumed that the Dojutsu is the cause of his body hopping, not the machines. I think, even though it's still speculation, that the part about the use of the machines to change bodies should be removed from the article if it hasn't already.

The Rinnegan is not a dojutsu (If I'm correct, Dojutsu's are forbidden techniques) its a Bloodline Trait. That being said, nothing as of yet says that the Rinnegan has anything to do with the body switching, however we do see Pein using the machines to change bodies thus at the moment is not speculation but fact. Odd aint it.--TheUltimate3 02:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Dojutsu is the term for eye-based techniques; namely, it is the set including the Sharingan, Byakugan, and the Rinnegan (why Kishimoto felt the need to make those three elements of a set is beyond me). The point still stands, though; we have no proof that the Rinnegan had anything to do with his switching bodies (barring the technique's name, which is not concrete evidence), but we do know that he did switch bodies. You Can't See Me! 03:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh thats right, the forbidden techniques begins with a K (I think...) thats right. Either way You Can't See Me! is right.--TheUltimate3 03:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yea, forbidden jutsu is called kinjutsu. I myself had it confused with Hiden jutsu, which apparently are only techs passed down within clans. --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 04:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

What if the machine's just for storing the bodies? Until we know it shouldn't be said what they're used for.

I agree, we dont know the details about the switching bodies.. we can't just asume that is via a machine.. maybe is just an storage device.. Yagami Kurono 03:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Pain, not Pein

Sorry if this has already been discussed. But Pain's name spelled with an "a" not a "e." Why? Because Yahiko and Nagato mention a lot about the feeling of their pain. This is why the Akatsuki Leader is referred to as Pain. It's just like Maito Gai is actually spelled Might Guy. 71.168.85.188 01:08, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

wrong--Acetylseryltyrosylserylisoleucylthreonylsery 01:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

To elaborate on that, Pein is nowhere near his official introduction in the Latin-alphabet versions of the anime/manga. As of yet, he has no official romanization, so Wikipedia goes by the Hepburn romanization that is closest to the original katakana. If Might Guy's official English spelling hadn't been released, for example, we would probably be going by "Mait Gai". You Can't See Me! 02:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Because "ai" in romanji is pronounced like a long "i" (like Sai, and Kurenai). "ei" is pronounced "ay". Jazz Band Member 20:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you meant "Maito Gai", which I think threw off your credibility. There's also the fact that Rock Lee was accepted long before an official romanization of his name was available.

it's pretty obvious that it's supposed to be the English word Pain, because they keep going on and on about their pain. There's also the fact that "ぺいん" (Pein) has absolutely NO relevance in Japanese. There aren't even any Japanese words that start with the sound "pe". Pein means nothing in Japanese. As far as I know, with the exception of Might Guy and Rock Lee (the only other two characters with names made of foreign words), all other characters have names that actually mean something in Japanese. WtW-Suzaku 00:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I actually meant that "Mait Gai" was the proper Hepburn romanization prior to the revalation of their names in English. Should an "o" come after "t" or "d", it's left out. Now, "ai" has the same pronunciation as the "i" in "Might", but there was no reason for us to choose "Might" over "Mait" until his name was released. Likewise, "Pein" may very well be "Pain," but we have no reason to believe that "Pain" is the proper spelling aside from logical conclusion, which is original research. Instead, we go by the romanization closest to the original katakana, regardless of the fact that it does not mean anything: Pein. You Can't See Me! 00:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You are incorrect. I think you need to study up on Hepburn Romanization. ト/と and ド/ど are romanized as "to" and "do". The only consonant not followed by a vowel is ン/ん, "n", which is technically a sonorant consonant. The only time you drop anything is if it's part of a long vowel, in which case you use a macron instead (トー would be "dō").

Furthermore, romanizing it as Pain is no more original research than using any fan-translation or scanlation as a source, because just about any Japanese sentence can be translated in at least two different ways. The Naruto wikipedia articles are chock full of original research, from the translation of Shippūden as "Hurricane Chronicles" to Kamatari's "斬り斬り舞", which most people don't even realize is actually a pun! Hell, the fact that this article uses edited scans from an illegal scanlation should make this whole topic moot.

So, tell me again, why can't we just change it to Pain? I propose we have a vote on the subject.WtW-Suzaku 10:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Switch to Pain imo. Altough both spellings work, Pain is both more accurate and seem to fit the theme of the Nagato / Yahiko / Konan arc. Although the second point is an inference (as I'm sure some kind Wiki editor will both point out and flame me for) it's better than calling him Pein just to spite the inference; doing so is just as wrong. AnimeNikkaJamal 00:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We will wait until it is official. Of course it is likely "Pain," but until we have 100% certainty, it will be "Pein" which is the proper romanization of his name. The great kawa 00:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No. That's your preference. It looks dumb saying he took the name "Pein" because of the pain he went through. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.19.14.44 (talk) 00:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Preference doesn't play here. It's direct romanisation under the guidelines in the manual of style. σмgнgσмg 12:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The style manual would be more so in favor of the use of "Pain", though. There's obviously no specific mention of "manga character names that are likely English in origin, but still technically unrevealed due to lack of official source", but there is the explicit rule of reverse-transliteration of English words written in Katakana. 24.20.172.130 08:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just make it into Pain then. Pein isn't a word. 66.82.9.88 00:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps we ought to call him Pane. That's equally as viable as Pain, isn't it. Or perhaps Payne, or Paine or something. All of those are words (one is a proper noun) too. Or we could just go by the strictest, most literal transliteration of the katakana, which is Pein. You Can't See Me! 00:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think that manual of style applies here. Even I have to admit, the latest chapter made it really clear his name is meant to be "Pain". The Splendiferous Gegiford 00:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

"Pane" is not just as viable as "Pain", and this should be abundantly clear after the latest chapter. Put simply, "Pain" is by far the most plausible possibility in terms of what was intended by Kishimoto. Proposing "Pein" to be reasonable romanization would effectively require that Kishimoto chose the name purely for its sound which is not the norm for character names in Naruto. 24.20.172.130 06:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Well "Pein" could be the german word for pain. Isn't it that japanese people pretty much like german words and stuff? So maybe it IS pein for that reason. 13:53, 13 October 2007

I have effectively no German competence, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the German "pein" is pronounced like the English "pine", correct? In which case it would be transliterated into Japanese as パイン, which in turn has a Hepburn romanization of "pain" (ironically). German words, also, typically don't make their way into Japanese nowadays. The English "pain" on the other hand is relatively accessible to the average Japanese person and is used most frequently in the Japanese transliteration of "pain clinic". 24.20.172.130 18:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think his nickname is Pain. Not Pein. He nicknamed himself as Pain because it's pain that helped him grow up, pain that helped him to become a god. And the recent manga chapters are typing the wikipedia's pein as Pain. I don't think they're going to repeat that mistake way too many times.194.204.117.237 21:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it definitely should be Pain. Do we have to vote on it or can someone just change it? 75.42.65.234 08:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I'd prefer vote. Not that I am confident that Pain will win but because it's not us that edits the akatsuki section. it should be them that changes it.194.204.117.237 21:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It's most likely not going to be changed until either we get an official spelling from Kishimoto or we reach a new consensus that the Romanization of the name was incorrect. I agree that the name is most likely "Pain", but "Pein" is the most direct Romanization we have, so it'll stay that way until one of the two things I mentioned above happens. --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 21:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Question - There seems to be a general consensus that "Pain" is most probable. That comes with a converse saying that a romanization of "Pein" is improbable. Given this, how does keeping the romanization of the name as "Pein" for the time being serve the people coming to this article for information? Furthermore, even if it is defensible that using "Pein" for the time being is the best option, is it not in the best interest of the reader that the article clearly mention, one, "Pein" is merely a direct phonemic transliteration of the Japanese name being used here as a placeholder until an official romanization is established, and two, that the name is most probably intended to be "Pain"? 24.20.172.130 01:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Most probable. Not definante. As said before, the most DIRECT Romanization we have so far is Pein. It being "intended" to be Pain is irrelevent (especially as again someone mentioned above we get these scans by illegal means). --TheUltimate3 01:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

One, would it be possible to get a response to both questions I posed? Two, why is the "most direct" romanization, and one that is quite likely wrong, a better alternative to the most probable one? How does this direct transcription serve the reader better? Three, why does a significant number of people getting Naruto scans illegally cause the general perception of Kishimoto's intentions to be any more irrelevant and why would those perceived intentions be irrelevant in the first place? 24.20.172.130 02:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Because the threshhold for incluision in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Pein is verifiable because the katakana literally read "Pein". Pain may be true, but it is not directly verifiable. I personally think it's "Pain" based on Pein's latest speech. The problem is, I had to jump to a logical conclusion to link his name to the theme of his speech, which in turn is original research; that his name is Pain is obvious, yet not verifiable. You Can't See Me! 02:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to include ironic remarks in the edit comment. It comes across as being condescending and that would certainly seem to go against a pillar, while we're on the topic. At any rate, "pain" being a probable romanization of ペイン is something that is verifiable. ペイン not being a Japanese word is something that is verifiable. The vast majority of names in Naruto having meaning and or a backstory attached to them is, likewise, verifiable. I would also point you to one of the other pillars and point out that the guidelines of Wikipedia do not exist merely to be blindly followed. I still would also still like a response to the questions I posed. Specifically, what purpose does keeping the romanization of "Pein" serve the reader? And secondly, even if "Pein" stays, would it not be prudent to call a spade a spade, so to speak, and add mention that the romanization is nothing more that a placeholder at the moment? 24.20.172.130 02:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood his edit summary. –Gunslinger47 02:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

So I have. My apologies. 24.20.172.130 03:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't use the word "damn" so much, regardless of context. Sorry about that. You Can't See Me! 04:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Keeping it as Pein serves to (as I'm sure I mentioned. Might not have been clear, and for that my apologizes) the DIRECT translation of the Japanese characters given. And given that, I would refer to you Green, where for a while I insisted based on previous Nintendo traits that the named character in the manga, and the female character in the game was the same person. No matter how "obvious" trends are, its not variable as it still counts as Original Research. As such while Pein being the direct romanization of ペイン is valid, saying that its probably ment to be Pain and trying to use past reasons as support is not valid or verifiable. --TheUltimate3 03:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I would point out that there are more than enough examples of "original research" in the exact same vein as the Pein/Pain issue here where direct romanization is not being used, the first one coming to mind being Vizard (and in that case it's even more probable that it's "visored" instead of "vizard"). I would also reiterate the fifth pillar, and claim that it serves the best interest of the reader in this case to allow some flexibility on the OR guidelines. But aside from the OR issue, I will again request that someone attempt to respond to my inquiry as to why making specific mention in the article of the status of "Pein" as a placeholder would not be prudent. 24.20.172.130 03:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

In the case of "Vizard", Viz media spells it as such, so it is by no means an originally researched spelling. ~SnapperTo 03:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Did they? Interesting. I only own the Japanese volumes. I wasn't aware that VIZ had released up to vol 21 already. At any rate, after checking VIZ's page just now and seeing that 21 is the most recent release, I'm still quite sure the page still was listed as "Vizard" well before an official English translation was made available. 24.20.172.130 03:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but Tite Kubo lets a lot of official spellings show up in official Japanese materials anyway (i.e. "Grimmjow Jaegerjacques", etc.).—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Many of which have gone completely against the more plausible candidates for reverse-transliteration, I would point out. But to the best of my recollection, "Vizard" was never one of those that was revealed (correct me if I'm wrong though), which is also the precise reason I cited it. 24.20.172.130 03:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Just change it already. Jeez. 66.82.9.54 17:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Rinnegan

In the previews of the next manga, it shows Pain useing and a technique called Rinnegan, which transformered his eyes to what the look like now. I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in his bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 02:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Done!--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 06:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't know that his eyes were transformed, all we know is that they looked like that when we first saw them after he killed that guy. They may have been like that since the day he was born.

New Info on Pein!

Pein is Nagato! On saiyan island they have a translation guide. That guide states that Nagato is pein. Please repond and put up the new info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController (talk • contribs) 05:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We will wait until proper english translation is out. Meaning one that everyone (who speaks English) can easily find and see. Until then, we wait.--TheUltimate3 10:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I read it this morning in English. Nagato is Pein. Jazz Band Member 20:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jazz! I just read it in English too! Nagato Like I said earlier is pein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController (talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan

As of now, all the information on Konan has been deleted from this article. Is there any perticular reason for this? 66.24.227.23 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'd like an explaination as well. Cathy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.4.6 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah What Happened to Konan. Controller

It appears to have been simple vansalism. Everything was removed by one user without any explination and has since been readded. --67.68.152.38 21:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that part about her not being able to use her origami while wet should be clarified. While in ch 372 jiraiya uses an oil based technique to stop her paper, in ch 373 she's using her paper while it's raining. I'm not sure why oil affects her paper more than water, but it's something to think about. 68.85.155.211 00:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point; however, in Ch368, Konan only starts to use her jutsu to find Jiraiya immediately after Pein stops the rain. Celeritas 20:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Using paper and becoming paper are probably different. Her paper shuriken used durring the rain are not unfolded from her body, while Jiraiya says that wile covered in oil, her paper could not unfold from her. Also, her body being made of paper might make her weak all the time to water(while she may not have had this weakness back then), or the heavy rain on tiny paper butterflies would simply be a drastic inconvenience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.143 (talk) 19:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well it never said she was permanently made of paper, it could had just been the effect of her jutsu. If she was permanently made of paper then she wouldn't be able to stand in the rain when talking to Pein and Tobi at all. 71.200.36.214 21:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

She didn't, they were indoors.

Well now in ch 374 Pein douses her with some kind of bubbly liquid allowing her to move and counteract Jiraiya's oil. So again I think we should consider changing whether or not she can use her origami abilities while wet or whether it's only certain types of liquid.68.85.155.211 19:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe she can just get dry from water faster that from oilYagami Kurono 15:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan's from Hidden Rain

Can someone please put up that Konan is a missing-nin from Amegakure? It's been revealed in the last chapter. Yes I know she's not wearing any visible headband, but it said that she's from Hidden Rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

I don't think so. where'd you get this info from. I read the latest chapter and it does not come out and say konan is from Amagakure, hidden village in the rain.71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 (talk)

She's from the Land of Rain. Amegakure is within the Land of Rain, but all ninja from the Land of Rain are not necessarily from the the hidden village. Case and point, Konan was trained to be a ninja by Jiraiya and was not loyal to Amegakure at the time when he left her group.

Pein now wears a crossed headband of Amegakure, which means that after Jiraiya left them he joined the hidden village under Hanzo, then scratched out his headband when the civil war broke out. It is quite possible that Konan never allied herself with Amegakure and was simply following Pein and Yahiko around. –Gunslinger47 17:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, then what village is she from? 71.168.85.188 17:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

We don't know. I'm not saying it isn't possible that Konan is from the Rain Village, it just it was never said, so nothing has been confirmed..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 (talk)

Um just a tiny thing. When Pain and Konan joined forces when they became orphans. Why would a child not from amegakure be in amegakure? Why would parents take her there when she couldn't defend herself? I think she is from amegakure. But that just may be me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.204.117.237 (talk) 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan's position on Akatsuki

Can we consider Konan a higher staus above Itachi and Kisame? Obviously Madara is the leader, with Pein sort of a figurehead (or second in command) Originally most people thought Zetsu held a higher status above the majority of the members, because that acted upon him as leader when he gave Pein's orders, but then on the otherhand, Konan refers to Pein by his name, a practice not done by the rest of the members. This may be because they were childhood friends but I digress.

One thing I don't like is on Konan's bio it says;

Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her doing Pein's bidding

Yes, Konan was helping Pein when she went after Jiraiya, but I think "doing Pein's bidding" is a wrong statement to use here. There is nothing to confirm Konan plays the part of Pein's servant. It's a partnership. If anything, Pein and Konan are both second in command to Madara. Personally I feel it should read;

Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her being an equal in the eyes of Pein, second in command along with his partner Konan, to Madara.

71.31.85.22 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King

More acurately, Konan is called "God's Angel" because she gives Amegakure Pein's words, spreading God's word is the act of an angel, the wings have nothing to do with the title, and may even have been inspired by the title. Additionally, the wings are not the source of flight, as she is seen floating in the air despite having not formed them yet. I'd say her near weightless paper body is what allows flight, and I never saw her flap them in the sound effects (maybe I missed it, I don't know). She also remains in the air despite her wings terrible condition at the moment.

In Akatsuki, a member's strength determines their authority (and it must be aknowledged before taking effect as such) with Itachi being Kisame's superior (able to boss him around) because he is agreeably the stronger of the two and Kisame knows this. Zetsu, by carrying the orders of the strongest member, has words that hold even more authority than his own normally would.

Konan's position in Amegakure as "God's Angel" is completely seperate from her position in Akatsuki as Pein's partner. In Amegakure she is Pein's voice to the people and her position is derived from their childhood relations and trust rather than strength.

The Rin'negan

This info on the rinnegan is original research and should be changed. "Rinne (輪廻) is also the Japanese term for Samsara, the cycle of reincarnation or rebirth in several Indian religions; this possibly explains Pein's ability to switch between bodies." This should be a fact page and possibly is not a term that should be used on wikipedia. It is an interesting fact but sadly the manga hasn't revealed this. 65.23.245.27 01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The manga hasn't revealed a lot of things, but this is based on the Rinegan's english translation, Metemphychosis, which is transmigration, the ability to switch bodies.

This is not relevant information, the naruto world is apart from our world, switching bodies has nothing to do with rebirth or reincarnate, it's info that does not belong there. Point is that we should look at this information as if we're relating to the naruto world not with ours; finding out where the author created the word from has nothing to do with the kekei genkai described. 65.23.245.27 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, how fictional topics apply to the real world is the point of Wikipedia. We write about and consider fictional topics in the scope of the real world, not in the scope of a fictional universe. Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 03:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

what are the three eye techniques jiraya said it contained?

He didn't say it contained anything, he said it was one of, and the greatest of, the three great eye techniques, i.e. Rin'negan, Byakugan, Sharingan.

Actually, the Sharingan and Byakugan were never stated to be part of the Sandou. And there are othe Doujutsu that may fill that spot, like whatever that girl in the filler arc used. Or maybe there are new doujutsu that haven't been introduced. You can't just assume the Sharingan and Byakugan are included in the Legendary Three. AnimeNikkaJamal 05:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Ranmaru's a boy :D. And I totally agre with you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.1.103.214 (talk) 22:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This late in teh series? Seriously, the Sharingan and Byakugan are revered to be powerful Dojutsu worthy of nearly causing wars(Hinata's near abduction). I agree that it's not concrete but it is very very likely that they are the other two Dojutsu in the Sando. Besides, have you not seen how obscene they are? Sharingan is allegedly capable of controlling the Bijuu, and Byakugan is a Dojutsu that has spawned a unqiue and very very deadly Taijutsu style, in addition to being able to see virtually anything and everything. (and Filler does not cound at all for anything) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.26 (talk) 00:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ranmaru has no basis in anything canon. He was a filler-arc throwaway character based in a poorly written story, like most of the nonsense spouted in the anime. When relating to the manga and Kishimoto's original Naruto opus, put the anime, the movies, and the OVA's, out of mind. 214.13.209.200 16:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

@ 65.23.245.27: Oh, and so what do you call the instance of Sharingan, translated into "Copy Wheel Eye"? Or, to keep on the doujutsu topic, the Byakugan, White eyes, that turns the eyes white (amongst other things)... And to move OUTSIDE of the doujutsu topic, what do you say about just about any other technique (Goukakyu = Great inferno, Rasengan = Spiral shpere, Raikiri = Thunder cutter). Basicly, almost every jutsu name in Naruto is self explanatory. What's your counter argument? 81.228.148.16 12:06, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but please be civil. After all, a talk page is used to discuss how to improve the article. σмgнgσмg 13:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't say I was being uncivilized, possibly ironic or nosey, but still civilized... And I was only trying to get a point arcoss. 81.228.148.16 15:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure Ranmaru's not canon, but neither are the Sharingan and Byakugan being parts of the Sandou, which is my point. You can't verify their existence in the group, therefore you're using logic (i.e. original research) which equals fail on wikipedia. My basic point is this: If you have the right to relist the Sharingan and Byakugan as Legendary Doujutsu without official verification, I have the right to change "Pein" to "Pain", since it is just as logical but unverifiable. :win: AnimeNikkaJamal 23:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying add it to the article, I'm just saying that it's very likely, so I'm going to bank on that assumption. I don't doubt his name is derived from 'Pain', but I also feel that if it was written in Katakana, then it should be read with that spelling. Maito Gai for example. -FFFX —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.15 (talk) 18:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Powers of Rinnegan

(This probably also applies to the Kekkei genkai article.)

I'm going to admit I myself have no idea what Rinnegan's powers are since I'm too lazy to be bothered to read serial manga, but if they've been revealed, shouldn't they be stated, and if not, stated that the powers are unknown?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 05:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They're unknown. If you wish to add it, then feel free to be bold and do it. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 05:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Rain Country

Is pein the leder of rain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.183.85 (talk) 18:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Pein is the leader of Amegakure (Village Hidden in Rain). Pein eventually began a civil war within Amegakure, which he subsequently ended by singlehandedly killing the village's leader, Hanzo. Pein killed Hanzou and became himself leader of Amegakure. We don't know the Land of Rain's leader, but Pein could be its leader.

This may be off-topic, but why was my status section deleted?

If the AL(don't know for an English Fact his name is Pein or Pain) is leader of the village wouldn't he be the Amekage. That would be so cool even though we know his village isn't top 5.SuperN 01:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Rain isn't one of the big five is the exact reason why he isn't an "Amekage."—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 02:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

And even if it was, keeping with the Kage naming style it would be something different: i.e. Konoha has Hokage, not Konohakage. Kiri has Mizukage, Iwa has Tsuchikage, Kumo has Raikage, etc. Muramasa itachi 03:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

364 Raw

The translated chapter isn't out yet, but the raw is, which you can find at numerous sources included Narutofan. The point is that Pein is finally shown fighting (against Jiraiya), and he has two summons from what I gathered. One is a giant crab that spits water (which he used to hose Jiraiya's oil off of Konan), and a chameleon-lizard-chimera-thing. Shouldn't this be added to his article? 214.13.209.200 00:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's either a Basilisk (would sorta match the doujutsu theme, wouldn't it?), or a Chimera... And the other summon looked more like a cancer if you ask me. 81.228.148.16 11:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Amekage?? Amegakure isn't one of the five top hidden villages. and therefor there can't be kages there.. right? 194.204.117.237 21:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki's Goal

The article states that Akatsuki has world domination as it's goal and that acquiring the tailed beasts will return the Sharingan to it's full power. Yet the most recent chapter; 374 states that the tailed beasts are required to make some form of a superweapon jutsu and that Pein's goal is to force all Shinobi nations into dismantling their militaries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays (talk • contribs) 10:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but this doesn't actually mean that the previous statements are wrong, you know. Pein considers himself a God, and most Gods in (western) religion are striving to make their religion the one and only, so it would just be logical if Pein's final goal IS world domination... Then again, he could've decieved the other members because he knew that they wouldn't understand his agenda of putting an end to the wars, I dunno... As for that Sharingan statement, I cannot recall something like that ever being explicitly stated... Frankly speaking, that sounds like OR, just like my theory that Hidan doesn't/didn't respect Pein because he, Pain, considers himself a God, getting him into collision course with Hidan's Jashin belief system. 81.228.148.16 11:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, what I'm assuming is this. Pain's goal is not to let the others dominate the world. He considers himself a god. Why would a god need humans who are not gods? They are just his pawns, to get the tailed beasts. The only possible reason that Pain told the others to live is because he needed him for the bombing. But again this is me assuming. 194.204.117.237 21:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Brainwashing

There is no mention about the abilities of Sasori to brainwash people like what he did against Yura and Kabuto. Tintor2 16:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

He used a jutsu, idk it's name, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gonzapalot (talk • contribs) 21:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Sasori used a currently unnamed jutsu to seal the memories of his subbordinates to make then into perfect sleeper agents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.145 (talk) 00:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Chameleon or Gekko

Well obviously Pein's summon isn't wholly either, but which one seems more like it? Aleriae 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it was meant to be a single creature. It looks like a combination of several different lizards, which is why I think Pein's article should be ammended to say it isn't a chameleon, but rather a chimera-like creature. 214.13.209.200 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Just list it as a Reptilian Conglomerate and end the debate. AnimeNikkaJamal 04:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty much all chameleon except for the snake head tail. That long curly thing behind its head is obviously a horn, not an extra appendage or tail. There's another horn on the other side of his head, but it's been broken off and then bandaged. Some chameleons do have horns, for example, the Jackson's Chameleon. Kangarugh22 19:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That's why it's called a "chameleon-like" creature. It's mostly chameleon but not quite. 214.13.209.200 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It also seems to have tattered insect wings.Personally I think it was better off described as a chimera.Lastbetrayal 19:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Tobi's Goal

The aticle states that Tobi wants the tailed beasts to restore the Sharingan to it's full power,surely this is speculation?

Complete speculation. Please remove it, if you can.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 17:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Using the reference for that statement would tell you to where it is said. ~SnapperTo 22:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh, I must have misread that page. Oh well.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh wait, that page?! How does that imply that capturing the beasts will restore his power? That seems on the edge of OR/spec, to me.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

His one sentence about the topic is spread across a few pages, so you'll need to backtrack a bit to get the whole thing (apologies for poor reffing). Even then, I remember him being more explicit about the beasts' connection to his Sharingan. Perhaps I'm thinking of another translation, as he doesn't mention them in the copy I currently have. Either way, his Sharingan works into the equation somehow. ~SnapperTo 00:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

== Itachi ==

Shouldnt we add his personality(the 1st and the 2nd) and his relationship with Sasuke and Naruto (He even left Naruto in chapter 369 to find sasuke. Tintor2 21:47, 18 October 2007(UTC)

Deidara

Are Deidara's weird hands a kekkei genkai? 74.167.170.215 20:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It was never specifically stated, but probably not. If Kidoumaru can have six arms and three eyes from his clans' techniques then I don't see how Deidara couldn't have gained three extra mouths from his. 214.13.209.200 21:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

New Chapter, New Edits

Pein has more than just two summons. In addition to the crab and the chameleon, he has a multi-headed dog, a bird with a drill-like beak, and a yak. I might have forgotten one (he had so damn many), but regardless, his article should be amended. 214.13.209.200 21:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, we all saw. What's interesting to me is that it seems the summons were replacing each other. He was inside the chameleon chimera first, but then started responding in conjuction with the hell-hound. I'm not sure, but it looks like he can transform his summons, perhaps with his Rinnegan eye. Intellect Ninja 21:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think he is currently inside of his chameleon (which turned invisible, by the by), and is summoning his other critters to attack while he remains safe and secure. That also explains why Jiraiya had to use his "barrier technique" that Pein identified as being able to detect very minute movements. 214.13.209.200 21:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

So there's six elements now? 68.217.209.214 02:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently so, but they never said what the sixth was. 214.13.209.200 02:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The six elements are wind, fire, water, lightning, earth, and ice(A rarer one, tyoically not seen outside of kekki genkai). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.123.31 (talk) 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

And you base this where?--TheUltimate3 04:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought ice was made by combining water and wind. The same way wood is made by combining earth and water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.80.98 (talk) 05:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, water with one hand, wind with the other. It's paraelemental. –Gunslinger47 14:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Star the sixth element? 71.168.85.188 14:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

The final element is love, obviously. X-D –Gunslinger47 14:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Ice is a kekkei genkai, you goober. The sixth element is thusfar unknown. 214.13.209.200 15:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Two types of Ice have been seen. The first is Haku's genkai, the second was from the Yuki nin from the first movie, although idk if we consider that canon or not. Oh, and does Mokuton count as an element? If so, there's your sixth element.

No, one type of ice and a non-canon movie have been seen. The movie held no relivance to the canon plot established in the manga and was released before Kishimoto reveiled the truth about Hyoton. Basically, if you didn't see it in the manga first, don't consider it possible or applicable to anything you see in the anime or the assorted OVA's. And no, Mokuton is a combination of earth and water, a kekkei genkai-only element. 214.13.208.180 10:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but since when is Mokuton a kekkei genkai? It was only invented by the First, that doesn't necessarily limit it to his bloodline; Yamato and Kakashi are both able to use it iirc. EDIT: Nevermind, didn't know about Orochimaru's DNA projects. Muramasa itachi 18:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to see a long-winded but detailed explanation about why Mokuton is a kekkei genkai, look at the kekkei genkai articles' discussion page. 214.13.209.200 20:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=284128

If this was not what was really meant, I think the sixth element would be Sound. Intellect Ninja 01:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sound is just air movement (wind), and we've only seen sound effects, not sound chakra. –Gunslinger47 05:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The sixth element would probably be something akin to void or darkness in my oppinion. (Have they ever explained how Nara clan shadow techniques work?) Also, perhaps Pain/Nagato's different bodies correspond with a certain type of chakra element, with his first being water-based and his second Deidara type body being the unknown 6th type (maybe void-based to assist with constant summonings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.172.208 (talk) 11:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Konan, God's Angel, and Flying

The article says that Konan can fly with paper angel wings, however she is seen on several ocasions floating ar4ound without any wings at all. It is more likely that they were just for show and to be utilised for attacking, while her flight is derived from her near weightless paper body. In addition, it is said in teh article that she is called God's Angel because of the wings, but that was never stated, she was called that because she spreads Pein's words. The Konan article needs some revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.15 (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't speculate. Noone really knows why she's called his Angel. It's never explicitly stated, and therefore, unverifiable. She's called God's Angel and that's all we know. I agree that the article is wrong if it says that she's called his angel because of the wings, but there's nothing that says that she's called his angel for any other reason. AnimeNikkaJamal 20:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Itachi Uchiha

GUYS.....wat happened to ITACHI'S page? Did someone delete it o something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.58.212 (talk) 01:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It was merged because it held no real purpose. Itachi had done practically nothinig article worthy.--TheUltimate3 01:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

But still Itachi is a very important character so why merge it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier (talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Cause that's what they decided on... Jazz Band Member 14:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

And I can't link it because it was a merge disscussion, so sorry.Sam ov the blue sand, Editor Review 16:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The conversation is still at Talk:Itachi Uchiha. –Gunslinger47 18:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hidan's village

He's got a headband. At first I thought it was Rain, then I thought it was Grass. Is there any word on what the village is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Unknown.Lastbetrayal 03:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Should we add that to his article? I tried doing that earlier but someone reverted it. Muramasa itachi 03:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that his village isn't stated should speak volumes for its unknown status. ~SnapperTo 03:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Meh, all that did for me was intrigue me; I wondered if it was carelessly left out, then went on to find out myself. Then again, that may be just me, but still. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 05:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Deidara vs Sauske

How did Deidara fight Sauske without his hands? Because Gaara crushes one and Kakashi warps his other hand into another dimension. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier (talk • contribs) 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Kakuzu reattached them. Jazz Band Member 14:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, he mentions somewhere that Kakuzu sewed them back on or something. Iirc you can see the stitches during their fight but Im not sure about that. Muramasa itachi 18:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Who Tobi really is?

I know that there have been aloit of topics where people have been saying that tobi is madara and that tobi is obito what madara uchiha is possesing obito's body it might be possible because tobi and madara look nothing alike tobi looks exactly like obito and tobi didnt actualy say he was madara he was referring to his power plus tobi weres a mask that covers his entire face except his right eye maybe because tobi has no left eye and plus why else does tobi have medical pins on him. Note:this is just a theory doesnt mean it's true.