Talk:Greek genocide

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Map of Ethnic Groups at beginning of 20th Century

The map by William R. Shepherd suggests that extent of the Albanian population extended across the majority of present-day southern Serbia up to the city-boundaries of Nis. The document is false (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo). Another source should be used for the map that is consistent with historical fact or the map should be removed altogether.

NPOV

I've read through the article, and feel that it is written in a Greek POV tone. I suggest the lead mention that the International Association of Genocide Scholars hasn't recognized it, and that Turkey refuses to call this "genocide", as those things are quite important, and having them near the top (as well as where they are) would reduce the bias towards the Greek end considerably. Also, should the title not be "Pontic Greek genocide", with "genocide" lowercased? · AndonicO ^Talk 17:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to add anything to the lead, feel free to, about the title that seems to be the general practice (Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, Rwandan Genocide, Bosnian Genocide...). Anything else?--Ploutarchos 17:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I thought I'd ask because there's an edit war going on though. · AndonicO ^Talk 17:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It says that the International Association of Genocide Scholars, European Union, Council, and UN haven't made reference to the genocide, but that isn't sourced... I only added the Turkish Minister's view (since that did have a source). · AndonicO ^Talk 18:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand this is how this article works. Unless a source is found saying that they do recognize it this article shall write they do not (regardless of sources). Perhaps the title of this section should be renamed from "Greek POV" to "Yet more Turkish POV".--Ploutarchos 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Just commenting on this [1]. I find it very rich comming from the land where admitting that the Armenian Genocide took place is a criminal offence but denying that an Algerian Genocide took place is also to be a criminal offence [2]. Turkish Foreign Minister speaks of a "traditional Greek policy of distorting history" ... is the pot calling the kettle black?--Ploutarchos 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you like the title better? By the way, I'm not Turkish, I'm Greek, born in America. · AndonicO ^Talk 21:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I note that you self-declare as an "American" of "multiple ancestries" on your userpage. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, American (born), multiple ancestries (my family's never stayed in one place too long), and Greek (as far as I know, that's the origin of my family tree; my last name is also Greek). · AndonicO ^Talk 21:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Not quite the same as a "Greek, born in America", e.g. George Andreas Papandreou. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 22:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I doubt eating 500 gyros will convince you I'm Greek, so I'll stop trying. :-) · AndonicO ^Talk 22:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Your ancestry is irrelevant. I'm merely noting inconsistencies. By the way, proclaiming your "Greekness" doesn't legitimise anything, if that's what you thought. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ploutarchos said I was Turkish, which I'm not, but rather (in this article at least) the opposite. I wasn't trying to legitimize, I just wanted to clarify (I'm not Turkish, I pointed this out, and you say it's irrelevant). And I'm not sure what "inconsistencies" you're refering to. · AndonicO ^Talk 22:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Um, I never said you were Turkish. In fact, I never said you were anything. All I was doing was bitching about Turkish Foreign Minister's hypocrisy and the Turkish POV standards which have overwhelmed this article. Could we please stop discussing Andonicos's ancestry; I'm sure it's a very interesting tale, most people have an interesting story behind them, but it makes this section confusing and hard to read.--Ploutarchos 22:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I misread your comment. And I would gladly stop discussing my ancestry. · AndonicO ^Talk 22:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the edit. I'd just remove "however", since it is argumentative. NikoSilver 23:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Already done. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, saw it. AndronicO, I don't want to be close when you burp! NikoSilver 23:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

;-) · AndonicO ^Talk 00:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The same sources youre using in the article says that there were organised atrocities between the years 1919-1922 on the part of greeks, what is has to do with "trivializing" the genocide? And the genocide nobody but greece recognize in the face of earth..Ah sorry ı forget to mention cyprus recognize it as well--laertes d 20:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

İm really bored with all these silly games of reverting articles, there are enough and credible sources quite clearly stating organized greek massacres in western anatolia during the greek occupation of it, and there is nothing wrong to say thhat massacres in the period 1919-1922 was mutual..--laertes d 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of of who commits massacres, they are regretable. However, there is a big difference between massacres that constitute a genocide and a few isolated massacres/atrocities. The Turkish victims numbered several thousand ( see Rummel's accounts), the Greek victims hundreds of thousands. The Turkish atrocities were premeditated and centrallly planned (see Akcam's accounts). The Greek atrocities were spontaneous, isolated individual or group acts of violence. There was no premeditated and/or central Greek plan. Please provide a third party source which states that there was a premeditated and centrally directed Greek plan. - Rizos01 16:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Rizos, both Arnold J. Toynbee and Taner akcam actually argues that Greek atrocities were organised in nature, they were not some isolated acts..And these opinions are shared by Inter allied commission reports and by the representative of red cross..--laertes d 10:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Please provide book titles and page numbers, as well as report titles, page numbers, and date of reports. Otherwise your arguments are not credible.--Rizos01 22:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Kekrops, do not change the content of citations the way you want please, ı merely quoted the authors. toynbee states in his book that "There were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna".. he doesnt say outside of Pontus, what he says includes Pontus as well..And that is also true for the citations taken from Akcam..--laertes d 10:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

İzmir

A millenium of Turkish inhabitance should be enough to secure the city's name as Izmir. I've deleted Smyrna in the parentheses. Anyone who wishes to find out the past names of the city can click its link. By the way, I didn't see Selanik in parentheses after Thessalonika...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.194.49 (talk • contribs)

What's the big deal? Izmir comes from the Greek name anyway; it's not as if it constitutes such a grand example of Turkish authenticity that it must be guarded so zealously against the hated gavurlar. Thessaloniki, on the other hand, does not derive from Selanik, but rather the contrary. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:BITE and lol for gavurlar. The argument wasn't about etymology, that's your argument. Should we write next to each word the word it derives from in parentheses? The argument was probably the Greek name vs Turkish name for a Turkish city. Turks might have taken the name from the Greeks, and changed it a little bit over years to make it easier pronounceable for a Turkish speaker, but so did Greeks changing the Hittite or Assyrian name or the name of the Amazonness queen into Greek. Also Turkish name of the city is İzmir (note the capital letter). Deniz^T_C , the infidel (infidelis) (writing the word it derives from)

It's not a question of Greek vs Turkish names, but a question of accurate chronology. The fact of the matter is that the names Smyrna (and Constantinople, for that matter) were in common usage and were the internationally recognized names of the cities during the time period. Ataturk changed the names in 1930. Hence we should write Smyrna, perhaps with "modern-day Izmir" in parentheses, for any reference to the city in question that is pre-1930, in order to be historically accurate. After-all, no one would think in antiquity of substituting Tunis for Carthage, etc. and the same principle applies here. Cheers, 74.134.238.58 23:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"The Greek name vs Turkish name for a Turkish city" is not a serious argument, as the city has been Greek much longer than it's been Turkish. I was simply noting the absurdity of the seemingly pathological aversion of many Turkish editors to the original Greek names of places in modern Turkey. However, I agree with the second anonymous editor that it is a matter of accurate chronology, so İZMİR is fine when discussing the Turkish mayor's rather amusing spitting of the dummy, as it occurred in 2006. Finally, please note the city's name in English is Izmir without the dotted I; this is en.wikipedia.org, after all. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Pontus versus Smyrna

User:Laertes d has reverted my clarifications on the nature of the Genocide. He would like us to believe that the massacres in Pontus were somehow the direct result of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-22, which took place in western Anatolia, several hundred kilometres away. There were no Greek forces in Pontus at the time and hence no war there. It is essential to distinguish between these two discrete historical events. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Kekrops thats the problem they were not two discrete historical events, according to a multitude of historians, that includes Toynbee and Akcam as well, there wouldnt be such a thing as Turkish national Movement without Greeks occupying smyrna..There was a war between Greece and Turkey regardless of where the Greek army was..Btw, ı recently noticed that Rummel calls the masssacres greeks committed in western anatolia a "genocide" as he calls the Turkish massacres of greeks as such..--laertes d 10:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You admit then that the Greeks were slaughtered in Pontus in retribution for the Hellenic Army's landing at Smyrna, at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula; they were not casualties of any fighting between Greece and Turkey as such. That is a crucial distinction to make. Your attempt to present the victims of the Genocide as mere casualties of war is historical revisionism and has no place on Wikipedia. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Historical revisionism? This article cannot find one monograph to its name, not one encylopedic article, nor one journal article. The title is unsourced, the only country to recognise a so called genocide is Greece, the editors who wrote this are Greeks, and the editors who blocked an arbitration to resolve the title are, again, Greeks. So I find it odd, actually laughable, when you get on your high horse and talk about "historical revisionism having no place on Wikipedia". Honestly, a joke! --A.Garnet 11:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The only joke here is your suggestion that Greeks are the problem. That's exactly what the perpetrators of this genocide thought. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC).

Spare us the melodrama and read what I said. --A.Garnet 10:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

You haven't said anything new that would warrant a serious response. Just the same old insecure Turkish denialism ("so-called") and blatant lies ("unsourced"). ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Then Kekrops Turks who were slaughtered in occupied lands were also not the victims of casualties of war, they were also massacred in areas where there was not an organized Turkish unit..What distinction are you referring to? And you keep changing source content the way you want, toynbee doesnt say "outside of Pontus" but he says "There were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna"..what's the point of having citations if youre going to change them according to your personal ideas?

And im not representing them as causalities of war but ım simply citing reliable non-pro turkish sources which shows that there were massacres towards civilianss at both side..--laertes d 13:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, what you're really trying to say is that because Greeks killed Turks too in a different part of the country, Turks did not commit genocide against Greeks in Pontus. It's the same pathetic relativist argument used in the case of the Armenian Genocide and is equally unconvincing. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not think going until detail is really right, we should focus on the article it self instead of adding more controversial material. --Vonones 08:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Vonones what is that controversial material are you talking about? the article itself is controversial as Garnett said.Im making reference to absolutely non-pro turkish sources like Toynbee and Akcam, toynbee's book is perhaps the only book which is written exclusively about the atrocities of the greco-turkish war..Plus you are changing the source material to something the sources doesnt say..--laertes d 09:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

A Shameful Act

The references of shameful act are all fine except for this, this is really irrelevant this has nothing to do with the text in the book and in the article, and throughout 1920-23, the period of the Turkish War of Independence. --Vonones 00:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

how it is irrelevant can you explain it vonones? That is how it is written in the book and that is completely relevant with the article..The citations from Toynbee are also quite relevant..--laertes d 09:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you add "here were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna" than that sentence which is irrelevant you cannot speculate. --Vonones 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I still cant see how it is irrelevant, obviously you dont like the naming of turkish war of independence..--laertes d 07:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The "Turkish War of Independence" is the name given in hindsight in official Turkish nationalist discourse to a series of wars fought against a multitude of enemies on numerous fronts over several years. As your attempt to relativise the Genocide pertains specifically to the war between Greece and Turkey in western Anatolia, a link to Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) is more appropriate. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Middlesex (novel)

Scenes of the Pontic Greek Genocide are prominent in the initial chapters of Middlesex, the 2003 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Jeffrey Eugenides. Under which heading would this best be added to the page? As it's a work of fiction, Further reading seems inappropriate. For now I'll add a heading, In literature — though I'm unfamiliar with the WP Style Guide on this point. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 10:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Further to the above: other pages do use the heading Further reading; however the page is presently protected from editing. -- Deborahjay 11:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Deborah. No doubt the author's Greek surname will cause it to be deprecated by Turkish editors. See above. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationalist hate sites, again

"hellenicgenocide.org" and the likes of it are most emphatically not reliable sources by any standard. I will strongly object to the inclusion of just about anything sourced to nationalist hate sites like that. We've been through it before. These are completely unacceptable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Completely laughable

"British historian Arnold J. Toynbee wrote that it was the Greek landings that created the Turkish National Movement led by Mustafa Kemal and it is almost certain that if the Greeks had never landed at Smyrna, the consequent atrocities on the Turkish side would not have occurred." Well i guess Toynbee was either a fortune teller or a retarded man as i can't remember Armenian army landing in Turkey before the Armenian genocide and i can't remember Greek army landing in Asia Minor in 1915 when "Amele Tamburu" (=forced labour aka work till you die in Lake Van etc) where at their prime.All in all i can't see how a totally personal view based on someone's "good wi$$" (to say at least) can be presented as a fact here.Eagle of Pontus 11:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Kekrops

Kekrops enough is enough we have been over this before, and now you turned back to do the same kind of editing again without trying to initiate a discussion over it..These two sources are relevant to the article, Akcam`s work perhaps the newest book written on the subject, Toynbee was an eyewitness to the whole series of massacres committed by Greeks and Turks, citing them is completely relevant for this article..

And these info belong to the intro, as they summarize what happened, they are not about why it happened-that would suit to the background section- but what happened in this period..--laertes d 08:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Kekrops, youre just pushing me to create an article, which i thought should exist anyway, that of the massacre committed against Turks by greek army of invasion, naming it Greek atrocities in Anatolia(as it would be the translation of Turkish expression of the atrocities committed by greek army `anadoluda Yunan mezalimi`)..There are enough sources to do this..I already have two neutral sources to begin with which uses the word genocide in relation of what greeks had done..Rummel and Cedric James uses the word genocide in describing these acts..--laertes d 10:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Kekrops, i know that you noticed this section, but as always you are just pushing your POV without having a discussion over it, in other words you have nothing to say..Your remark is again ridiculous, im quoting you the expert historians about the issue, you`re naming it `relativising the genocide.`

I think you should have been banned beacause of your insistent edit warring in several articles with your deliberate tactic of running away from discussion and changing the topic when you stuck up.. However as none of this happens i get completely dissatisfied with how this place is being ruled.. You did the same thing in several articles and you have gone away with it..--laertes d 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Can you please justify what is the connection of the Pontic genocide (with anti-Christian measures being traced as back as 1915) with the Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922 and in which way is justified the extermination of Greeks in Pontus with the Anatolian campaign in Smyrna several thousand miles away;Eagle of Pontus 21:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You may read the talk page of the greco turkish war article for similar extending discussions, but just to summarize my point:

first i dont justify anything, massacre is a massacre and it has to be condemned..

2-There wasnt such a thing as a Turkish national movement before the Greeks invaded Anatolia, Greek invasion created it and thats why toynbee blames partly Venizelos and Llyod George for the atrocities committed by both sides during the conflict.. The Ottoman government in Istanbul was already under British control, and rulers of the previous regime had already fled as they were being sought as war criminals..

3-Greek army starting from the first day of the invasion had committed atrocities towards Turks in the occupied areas or forced expelled Turkish populations inhabiting those regions, dont you think it may somehow lead to unjustified acts of violence against greeks who are inhabiting elsewhere in Anatolia..

4-Greeks were not exterminated in Pontus, however there were massacres towards them thats something i dont dispute..Often they were forced to flee inwards Anatolia, however there were still about 200.000 greeks in the Pontus region at the time of the population exchange..

I can reverse your question, greek army had complete control over the areas it occupied, it also had nothing to do with the war between greece and turkey at the time, how do you justify then massacres committed by greek army in the regions it had complete control over, where there wasnt an actual war..

--laertes d 22:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• I don't justify any massacre by the Greek army whatsoever.I am a Pontic Greek and my grand-parents fled to Russia and Greece because they saw their houses looted, their beloved ones either massacred or convicted (to death) in the "Labour battalions" near lake Van and all that justified in the name of being "infidels".They were expelled from a region they inhabited for several thousands years, and the remaining survivors had to try to rebuild everything from the scratch living the lives of refugees in a alien place (Makedonia) where the others saw them as aliens, just because the were an easy pray for the Turkish nationalists.Naming what the Greek army did in Smyrna (which i very much doubt if a Muslim in Pontus could learn taking into account the distance ) as an explanation is disorienting the reader.i must remind you that at the same time 500,000 Muslims lived in Macedonia(and they remained in tact during the war).How would you feel if Greeks started to massacre them as a retaliation for what was happening in Pontus;In your eyes ones explains the other;Just asking.Eagle of Pontus 10:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Eagle, my point here is that both Greek and Turkish nationalists tried to build homogeneus zones and they did so by either massacring or expelling the populations under their control..i dont think it is disorienting the reader but it explains what had happened in this period..

About the Muslims in Macedonia, youre right but there wasnt much a point of expelling or killing these people beacuse they were in the established Greek lands however that wasnt the case in much of the western anatolian coastlans, where there was a mixed population, and both sides were claiming it is their right to have their state upon that territory as they were constituting the majority..

Btw, Turkish nationalists used the excuse for forced marching Pontus people that Venizelos had already claimed right on black sea coastal areas in the Paris Peace conference and if Greeks would remain there, they would facilitate a possible greek invasion..I dont explain one massacre with another massacre, i am simply saying there were massacres committed against Turkish civilians by the greek army in that same period of time, and we need to mention of these acts in terms of some historical accuracy..--laertes d 11:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, basically your discussion has made it clear that you are attempting to justify the Turkish massacres of Greek civilians. AlexiusComnenus 09:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I ignore your comment, and i assume you either havent read what is written above or simply trying your best not to discuss the issue in hand..--laertes d 07:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Please stop your mindless reverting. The subject of this article is the Pontian Genocide; any complementary information on the casualties of the Greco-Turkish war in a geographically distant part of Anatolia belongs outside the lead. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Point you insist not understanding is, as usual, the lead is to give info about what happened in this period of time, you cant use it to present isolated segments of events, in which only the atrocities that Turks had committed would be shown, whereas the Greek atrocities moved elsewhere..

By simply following your `logic`, i now have to open an article called `Turkish Genocide in Asia Minor`, since there are enough sources about the atrocities performed by Greek troops and there are also sources who use the `Genocide` word..

Unfortenetly i agree with Garnett when he said: `Its like talking to a brick wall.`..Regards..--laertes d 10:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, there's a huge leap between the info being included below, and a separate article. We're not discussing whether the information should be included at all or not. We are discussing if it has such high relevance to the subject to warrant inclusion in the lead. And it hasn't. NikoSilver 12:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet it has been there for over months, it gets truly pathetic of what you two have been doing in several articles..Youre supposed to make up your own minds, not to back each other in each and ever occasion no matter what the discussion topic is..

About your recent comments, it certainly has such a relevance to be included in the lead and thats obvious why it has, since both sides committed similar atrocities, singling out what one party had done is definitely not a neutral way of presenting what actuallly had happened at that period..

Alternative to it would be a separate article about isolated segments of events in which Greek atrocities against Turkisn civilıans would be mentioned, and perhaps with the genocide word in the title, as you Nıko like to use that word so often..--laertes d 12:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see you try. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Dont worry you`ll get what you want..--laertes d 22:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How about some real argument why this background piece is worthy being included in the intro? I say it is undue in the intro, and irrelevant. It is the one who makes the claim who has to back it up, not the other way round, and you are not doing a good job at it. NikoSilver 22:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It seemed to me quite relevant, we`re not talking about a background info, but about what happened in this period of time..i keep backing it up, as you may read from above, problem here you two are not sort of people one can have a serious chat with..

Most ridiculously, after waiting for so long you showed up with your discussion offer just when i revert the article back into its old format, and i said that o will propose a separate Greek atrocities article if that normal format would be continued to be vnadalized by you two..

---

Added OR tag

Can editors tell me whether Tatz, Rummel, or Jacob specifically use the term "Pontic Greek Genocide" since they are being used to source this as a verifiable term? I know for a fact Rummel does not use term. If it is a case of these authors saying there was a "greek genocide" or "genocide of greeks" it still does not source the title of this article which the sources are apparently being used for. To me this is only one example of the OR running through this article. Other sections such as "Reasons for limited recognition" are purely original research, using a mish mash of sources to prove an editors own position. This is a problem I've highlighted from the very beginning, and something obvious to any editor with a basic knowledge of wiki policy. --A.Garnet 10:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. The term is used specifically in relation to the subject of this article; the notion that it means anything else is your original research. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I point you to a discussion we had on this preivously. To quote Fut. "The wording of the lead sentence is very specifically about the question to what extent people use that "controversial term" for it. So, if it is indeed the case that those particular authors don't use it (as Domitius seems to agree), then those refs shouldn't be at that place. I'm sure the positions of those authors can be adequately covered elsewhere.".

So according to your position Kekrops, I can create an article called "Turkish genocide of Asia Minor" and cite Rummel who uses the term "Greek genocide" for the conduct of Greek soldiers. That is A + B = C = Original reserach. If the present title is academically verifiable and part of the mainstream literature, then there should be no problem finding a source that does spefically use that term right? --A.Garnet 11:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Tatz refers very specifically to Turkey's "genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontian Greeks", Rummel refers to a democide or genocide against the Greeks, and Jacobs includes the fate of the Pontians in a comparative study of genocide. If you have a suggestion for the name of the article that better sums up the subject they are referring to, you're more than welcome to make it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

We shouldnt have to sum up or interpret anything. Those lead references are being specifically used to prove the common usage of the term "Pontic Gree Genocide", therefore those sources should be explicit in their use of this term to prove it is a commonly held academic position. If this were the case then you would have no such problem doing this. For example go to amazon.com and type "Armenian Genocide", that gives you 951 book results which prove the term is verifiable among literature. Now type "Pontic Greek Genocide", result: "Your search ""Pontian Greek Genocide"" did not match any products".

It is has always been very clear that the current title is not in common usage, that is why no sources can be found explicitingly supporting this articles thesis. That is why it rests on interpretation and original research. Also, about Rummel, if you look at the table where he uses the term genocide for Greeks, most references are for the West of Turkey in Marmara and Smyrna etc. The only reference to Black Sea is for those who were deported, there is no mention of Black Sea Greeks being killed as part of his use for that term, so this proves how original research is being used to reach conclusions not supported by those authors. --A.Garnet 11:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments are getting increasingly desperate; they all refer to a genocide committed by the Turks against the Greeks. Would you prefer Tatz's Genocide of the Pontian Greeks? That's fine, too. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think my arguments are quite clear and logical, it is your reasoning to ignore them that is getting more desparate. Those opening references are there specifically to prove common usage of that term, therefore is it asking too much that those sources refer explicitly to that term alone? I mean if I was an editor on the Armenian genocide article (of which your fond of claiming similarities), then I'd have no problem sourcing that title, heck I'd have 950 books at my disposal which use that term explicitly. As for your suggestion, no, we dont base articles on scraps of sentences which say what we want to hear. We base them on a large body of academic work - monographs, journals, encylopedias etc - which confirm a common position.

Face it, this article is a good candidate for deletion. It violates Undue weight, npov, original research and personal synthesis. There is not even an article to be found here, where is narrative for the events? There is a background and a casualty count and nothing in between. The whole thing is an exercise in pov pushing, from top to bottom. I'm not saying there isnt an article to be made on what the Pontians experienced, just not in this ugly form. If you want my suggestion it is this, rename the article to something general such as Pontian casualties of World War I, or Deportation of Pontians in the Ottoman Empire or Expulsion of Pontians from the Black Sea that way you do not restrict yourself to pushing one pov (a genocide one) throughout the article, but can actually focus on what happened to the Pontians --A.Garnet 13:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Face it, your burning desire to uphold the sanctity of Article 301 will remain a mere fantasy, because we have enough sources that use the term genocide in reference to the plight of the Pontians to justify the article's current title. Your "argument" that we cannot call it that because the words in the sources cited are not used in that exact sequence - but refer to the exact same thing - is a rather pathetic attempt at sophistry, frankly. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Its like talking to a brick wall. If your going to source a TERM "Pontian Greek Genocide" (with a capital G no less), then those sources should refer to PGG...That is not sophistry, its simply wiki policy. --A.Garnet 14:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me get this straight, once and for all. In your opinion, does Tatz's "genocide... of the Pontian Greeks" have a different meaning from Pontic Greek Genocide? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me ask you, does "the Turks did not seek to exterminate the Greeks, as the previous regime had done to the Armenians" (Valentino) and "Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option" (Midlarsky) or "these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths" (Mazower) mean Pontic Greek Genocide? There is clearly no academic consensus for the use of this title. --A.Garnet 14:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

What utter hypocrisy. You denounce the sources you dislike for not referring verbatim to a Pontic Greek Genocide, but happily parrot passages that don't refer specifically to the Pontians at all. I've had enough for one evening. Cheers. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)