Talk:Gehenna

=History-Prehistory

It is so good to see such civil learned debate on this subject, but what seems lacking is a touch of non religious basis for Gehenna. Notably the fact that the valley outside Jerusalem called Gehenna was in "pagan" times used as a sacrificial site. This association of a place of death?terror?sarcrafice, was later established as a municipal rubbish tip and as we all know biodegrading rubbish tends to burn continually...... rather interesting then that all pre-Gehenna concepts of Hell tended to be "icy" places, rather than firy places. I am so relieved as an atheist that Hell is now closed for business, or at least it is closed for everything other than archaeological research.

Richard

Pronunciation

Seeing as the Arabic version is Jahannom, is the G in Gehenna a soft G? My Hebrew's a bit rusty.

Old Testament

I'd like to suggest that you change the term "old testament" to Tanach. "old testament" implies that g-d has changed his promise to the Israelites. It's offensive to any jew.

thanks.

I'd like to just say, regarding the offended jew above, the word "Gehenna" appears something like 13 times in the Christian New Testement, yet doesn't appear at all in the "Tanach", being that it's a greek word. Therefore, a discussion about the word Gehenna will likely draw more Christian interest than Jewish interest, and therefore Christian terms such as "old testament" are likely to be used. If that is so offensive to you, I would suggest that you avoid topics that might be of interest to Jews and Christians alike, and stick to things that pertain only to jews.

thanks.

Wow, who is this guy that wrote the 2nd paragraph here? What makes you think the person who wrote the first paragraph is Jewish? You are reading alot into his words by thinking that. That might make you want to reconsider you Biblical exegesis skills, don't you think? It doesn't seem your textual analysis is very rigourous, but a bit more inductive-reasoning based. In any event, the point the person was making, it seems, is that the term "Old Testament" is not neutral, and should say "Christian Old Testament." It's a question of presumption - harvardlawgrad@hotmail.com

just check the word GOD. it was writen as G-D.... you get it?

I'm that guy that wrote the 2nd paragraph, and it doesn't take a "harvardlawgrad" to know that Jews spell God G-d. Your argument was so well formed too, you pulled out the exegesis and everything.

To The Guy Who Wrote Second Parapraph,

You're being needlessly abrasive. The original poster had a issue and brought it up in a respectful way. You simply dismissed his concerns and essentially told them to "keep their nose out of it." This is simply unacceptable. Yes, 'Gehenna' is a Greek word but so too is 'Christ' which is translated from the Hebrew word 'Messiah.' It would be reasonable for a Jew to object to the useage of the word 'Christ' when talking about Yeshua if they didn't believe He was the Messiah. Even though the word 'Christ' appears nowhere in the Hebrew Bible. It's that simple. Jews have a right to express how they feel their holy text should be refrenced. From there all parties should come to a compromise. While I happen to be familiar with the word 'Tanakh' many non-Jews are not. I therefore suggest 'Hebrew Bible.'

-Selderane

I just wanna say on behalf of the Jesus people that nobody I know thinks of 'Old' in Old Testament as meaning outdated, changed, or anything like that. Teh good Lord didn't change his promise or anything, just finished it up. We love you guys :) Shalom.

changed some language

I changed some language. While I'm frankly a freethinker with no spiritual belief whatsover, we should avoid offending anyone's beliefs. Hopefully the changes are OK.

dino 05:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC) I would put both names because, some might not know what the Tanakh is. Or put Hebrew Scriptures. By the way no Christian believes God changed his promises.

User:Chad A. Woodburn 11:50, June 12, 2006 While it is true that we should not intentionally and maliciously seek to offend anyone, it is naive to think that a controversial subject like this that is being discussed cross-culturally could be written in such a way that people would not be offended. (We will never get anywhere though in these discussions if everyone keeps wearing their feelings on their sleeve, looking for every opportunity they can find to be offended and become the victim.) If the Christian view about Gehenna is being discussed, then the label Old Testament is not only proper, it is preferred, since that is what they lovingly call it. To call it Tanakh in the section about the Jewish view of Gehenna would likewise be the right thing. However, since Gehenna is the Greek term found in the Christian New Testament, the use of Christian vocabulary throughout is appropriate.

Place of condemnation?

Is it, in fact, true that Jews of Jesus' time would have regarded references to Gehenna as general references to a place of condemnation and damnation -- that is, as analogies for Hell? I have read exactly the opposite elsewhere, that Jesus' references to Gehenna were not meant to indicate any eternal place of damnation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.215.85.177 (talk • contribs) .

Most of Christianity's ideas of Hell come from Orpheistic religions and from Mithraism, not from Judaism, despite the fact that the imagery has been anachronistically placed on the Bible's mention of Gehinnom. Tomer^talk 20:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur. My understanding is that the Jews would have regarded Gehenna as exactly what Gehenna was, a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where the bodies of executed criminals were burned. Any sources for your claim that the Jews regarded Gehenna as referring to a place of eternal punishment?

The Talmud refers to Gehenna as a place of torment where the wicked are punished temporarily before being burned up altogether. Jonathan Tweet 15:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. Gehenna (geena) is literally translated as "Valley of Ben Hinnon", which was a garbage dump located directly outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus used it in the NT, it NEVER meant an afterlife punishment. It meant sort of like "hell on earth, right here, right now" because it was a place that all the Jews knew about, and in the teachings that went along with this term, it meant whatever you did to warrant this word's usage, Gehenna was what you were worthy of at that time. Whenever the NT refers to the afterlife place where departed souls go for punishment, there is a different word used. That other word is "Hades" in the Greek.LivingDedGrrl 17:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)LivingDedGrrl 11 February 2007, 12:15 pm.

In and of that time, yes: the jews did believe that Gehenna was in essence "hell on earth." But in modern rabinic tradition, it is veiwed as a place of purification of the soul before it can move on. I believe according to one Hasidic rabbi that lives near me that the actual period of Shiva is equal to the maximum amount of time one can spend in Gehenna

Jewish usage of Gehenna

Without going into how the Jews of New Testement days may have understood the term, Gehenna is clearly an important term in Rabbinic Judaism. Otzar Ha'agada, a standard reference in Hebrew to the sacred literature of Judaism (Talmud, midrash, etc.), published by Mossad Harav Kook, lists 160 entries under Gan Eden v'Gehinnom, a good fraction of which relate to Gehinnom, that is Gehenna. The term has also used down the centuries in Jewish popular culture; see for example the short story "Ne'ilah in Gehenna" by I. L. Peretz.Davidhof 19:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Bleh. Please see Ge-Hinnom. Tomer^talk 07:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Ge-Hinnom

Would anyone object to merging with Ge-Hinnom? They seem to be discussing the same subject-matter. Tewfik^Talk 20:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I merged the articles. Here's the text of the Ge-Hinnom piece:

Ge-Hinnom is the name of the valley to the south and south-west of Jerusalem (Josh. 15:8, 18:16; Neh. 11:30; II Kings 23:10; II Chronicles|II Chron. 33:6; Jer. 7:31 ff., 19:2, 32:35). Its Arabic name is Wadi al-Rababah. The southwestern gate of the city, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley". The valley was notorious for the worship of Moloch conducted there (comp. Jer. 2:23). According to Jer. 7:31 ff., 19:6 ff., it was to be turned into a place of burial; hence "the accursed valley Ge-hinnom" ("Gehenna" in the N. T.) came to be synonymous with a place of punishment, and thus with Hell (comp. Isa. 66:24; Enoch 26 ff.; and the Mishnaic Hebrew equivalent).

I believe that the article may still require some organisation. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 15:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

intro

I edited the intro to identify gehenna as an afterlife destination. Jonathan Tweet 02:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Rabbinic tradition

I picked up material from "gehinom" and put it here. Gehinom is now a redirect to gehenna. --Jonathan Tweet 03:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Gehenna Definition

As part of the Exorcism definition in the section on Exorcism in Judaism, it states that Gehenna is a term for the in between world or purgatory that all spirits go to before entering heaven. Yet if one clicks on Gehenna, it defines this as a fiery place where the wicked are punished after they die on or judgment day.

So is this a temporary place or a final destination? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.231.67.175 (talk) 08:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

There's no reference in canonical, Greek scripture that points to Gehenna being a temporary world where spirits go before entering heaven. 24.23.126.182 06:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Christians identify Gehenna with eternal Hell. Medieval Jews, however, identified it as a temporary purgatory. Jonathan Tweet 12:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Gehenna Definition

As part of the Exorcism definition in the section on Exorcism in Judaism, it states that Gehenna is a term for the in between world or purgatory that all spirits go to before entering heaven. Yet if one clicks on Gehenna, it defines this as a fiery place where the wicked are punished after they die on or judgment day.

So is this a temporary place or a final destination? 69.231.67.175 08:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Both. In the Pharisaic tradition, Gehenna was punishment for the wicked. This is also how the term was meant by Christians for centuries. In the medieval tradition, gehenna came to be regarded as a temporary purification rather than as a final judgment. This article should make that clear. Jonathan Tweet 17:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Right-align the Hebrew text?

Is there any way to get the block of Hebrew text to right-align? It looks really odd to me left-aligned. Christian Campbell (talk) 02:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Does that work? I'm not entirely hip on the wiki formatting syntax, I just used html for now, someone can probably wikify it later. -Bikinibomb (talk) 04:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Nobody Has the Right to Prohibit the name "The Old Testiment"

　　Selderane wrote in article 1.2 "Old Testament", "I'd like to suggest that you change the term 'old testament' to Tanach. 'old testament' implies that g-d has changed his promise to the Israelites. It's offensive to any jew. "

　　Selderane ought not think like this. "The Old Testament", being the name of the front part of both the Christian Bible and Catholic Bible, are known and used all through the world. Very few people know what "Tanach" is. You ought not think people not following Judaism offending Jews. All people must respect the freedoms of thinking and speaking! Not all Jews are Judaists. Many Jews are Chritians or Catholics. Jadaists may express their opinions with their words, and in the same way, others may express their opinions with their words. Everybody must not force others follow his religion belief. We ought to discuss reasonably and respect one and other.

Tietu (talk) 07:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Tietu, 2008-1-15 7:32 (G.M.T.)

Prevent People Telling the Truth Must Not Allowed!

　　I cannot understand why in the article "Etymology", the sentence " According to The Old Testament, "Gehenna" or "Ge Hinnom" is only a real valley. "has been deleted by somebody for several time. That sentence only tell an important fact and the truth! Both Chritians and Judaists respect The Old Testament as God's words!

　　If anyone do not agree that sentence, one can express one's opinion with one's reasons, but must not deleted other people's sentence!

　　Prevent people telling the truth must not be allowed!

　　Prevent people to express their opinions must not be allowed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tietu (talk • contribs) 08:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This isn't here for opinions but for outside sources with citations. You keep inserting According to The Old Testament, "Gehenna" or "Ge Hinnom" is ONLY a real valley when the OT never says that. It says that it is a real valley, but it never say is it can ONLY be a real valley, which is what your wording implies. So I reworded it. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC)