Talk:Piracy

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Archive 1: through February 2007

Pirate Slang

We should add a little about pirate slang, like how they called cannons guns, what the seven seas were, and what shiver me timbers means and stuff like thatThe Clydelishes Clyde 01:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The difficulty with this is that much supposed pirate lingo was not peculiar to pirates; it was used by sailors generally, and putting it in the pirate article would give a false impression that it was used just by pirates. All three of the examples you gave would have been familiar to all seamen.

Still, there are a few phrases that were used only by pirates, so far as I know. How about "from the seas" (used to describe their origin), "pistol proof" and "soft farewell"? Are those exclusively piratical phrases?

Pirate Dan 13:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Fixing typos

“These Slavs relieved the old Illyrian pirateeering habits and often raided the Adriatic Sea. Already in 642 they invaded southern Italia and assaulted Siponte in Benevento.”

What does “relieved” mean? Should it be “relived”? It still doesn’t sound grammatically correct. I tried to fix this but the page was locked.

“Revived”?

It means to highten the effect of or to relieve someone of a duty.

Is Software Piracy the more applicable default term these days?

I came here looking specifically for information on what many call 'software piracy' and how it's related to, but not necessarily the same thing as 'copyright infringement'.

Seems that these days, people looking up 'piracy' are likeing coming from the context of software or the RIAA moreso that swashbucklers. Perhaps this should be made more clear at the top of the article: Looking for SOFTWARE PIRACY?...

156.98.171.81 23:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)darrel 01/03/2007

Software piracy is a biased/disputed term, and not the legal name for the activity. The Piracy disambig should be enough. falsedef 06:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Treasure maps

Over at the Treasure map article, I have been working hard to expand it. Several reliable references claim that no pirate treasure maps exist, but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't know how closely watched the article is, but it seems like an important one. While that article is shaping up to not focus solely on pirate treasure maps, those really seem to be where most of the interest lies. Do any pirate aficionados know of any real cases of pirate treasure maps? The Captain Kidd map and other maps about Oak Island come to mind, but it's hard to cut through the garbage and know what is real, and what is bogus. Some of the new information on the Treasure map article might also do well in the main pirate article. PMHauge 04:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

All historians I've seen who have commented on the subject say there are no pirate treasure maps. Now, pirates were illogical sometimes, but they weren't about to take all the treasure that they've worked so hard for and go onto a barren island and sail away! They'd immediately demand a share of the treasure so they could go off to the taverns and brothels and have a good time for a bit! Then, when they ran out of money, they'd set sail again to go steal more. (Nick31091 03:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC))

I've found evidence of a few pirates burying their treasure, but no evidence at all that they then made maps to it. It is unknown whether Kidd, Blackbeard, Low, or Rackham made maps to their buried treasure, or if they just buried it at a memorable landmark that they knew they could find again. Incidentally, while there may be something buried at Oak Island, there's no real reason to believe that pirates did it. Pirate Dan 16:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Terrorism and piracy

Blowing up a ship with another ship (loaded with explosives) has little do with piracy, unless hijacking is included. Please clarify terrorist acts with their relevance to piracy (e.g. robbery, hijacking, boarding, etc.) before re-adding cases. falsedef 05:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, today the US Navy considers pirates and terrorists to be the same. Therefore, instances os maritime terrorism would fall under piracy. (Nick31091 20:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC))

I believe they can consider pirates to be terrorists, but terrorists aren't necessarily pirates. This article treats them differently (from navy.mil):

"Because piracy is frequent in Southeast Asia, terrorists have found it an attractive cover for maritime terrorism. Though the motives of pirates and terrorists are different (the former pursues economic gains while the latter advances political objectives),4 terrorists could adopt pirate tactics of stealing a ship, which they could then blow up or ram into another vessel or a port facility, to sow fear." -"MARITIME TERRORISM IN SOUTHEAST ASIA"

falsedef 04:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The Navy does NOT consider pirates to be terrorists and has very different Rule of Engagement when dealing with each. The difficulty is that the distinction cannot be made until the motive of the perpetrator is known, which cannot be known until after an investigation of the act.PirateHunter 15:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Where does this article get its etymology of the word "pirate"? Online Etymology Dictionary derives it quite differently, but from the same Greek root. According to that site, peirates is from the verb peiran, meaning to attack. That makes a LOT more sense than the explanation given here. Chalkieperfect 00:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Cite your source and add the information to the article. It sounds good to me. PMHauge 15:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Um... They're both right: the etymology is just longer than either accounts for, and includes both steps. Peiran ('to attack)' is itself derived from peira ('trial, attempt, endeavour'). Classical Latin Pirata is derived from Hellenistic Greek Pirates, which is derived from peiran. The whole 'finding luck on the sea' bit is wrong though. 'Peiran' has nothing particularly sea-based about it, it's via 'trying your luck' or 'making an attempt on' in any context. Or so says the OED, and I always believe the OED. It is important to remember that sense has nothing to do with etymology, and that judging the validity of derivations on the grounds of sense almost inevitably leads us into error.

Please add the link to Ido Wikipedia

io:Pirateso Thank you, João Xavier, user of Ido Wikipedia.

POV because of missing references

Because we are missing references this article reads more like a historic story and can be seen as a possible POV. Try working on more sources. --CyclePat 20:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Origin of "freebooter"

My Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed.) supports the current article's derivation of freebooter from Dutch "vrijbuiter," meaning a taker of free booty. However, Angus Konstam's Pirates: 1660-1730 says that the term derives from "fly-boat" (French flibotes), a popular vessel of French pirates and privateers.

Is there a consensus on this point? Or should we include both etymologies in the article? --Pirate Dan 13:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, OED again. It suggests that the origin of freebooter is definitely in the Dutch 'vrijbuiter', the earliest known usage being 'frebetters.' 'Flibotes' is itself seperately derived from the dutch 'vlieboot'. Comparison of 'freeboot' and 'flibote' may however have influenced the formation of 'filibuster', primarily derived from 'vrijbuiter,' moving via the form 'flibutor', of which only a single example survives. Then again, it may not have, 'filibuster' may come direct from the Dutch, and 'flibutor' may be a dead-end. With words, who can tell? P.S.: The OED is way better than Miriam Webster. I love the OED.

History of Piracy : Piracy in the Caribbean

Sorry, to sound odd, but to me it seems that the following part really doesn't fit in this section, and is more just an attempt to laud a local hero/legend. I just didn't feel comfortable outright deleting it, tho. The portion I am refering to I have copied below:

One of the later famous pirates of the Caribbean was Roberto Cofresí Ramirez de Arellano (1791-1825). He was put to death for his crimes in Puerto Rico at the Castle of San Felipe del Morro. His romantic legend inspires plays and songs on the island.

Thanach 14:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Roberto Cofresi is definitely not famous enough to be worthy of special mention; the number of people who've heard of him outside Puerto Rico can probably be counted on one finger. As opposed to Blackbeard, La Salle, Black Bart, Henry Morgan, etc.

--Ivantheshifty 09:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

piracy in the carribean

I was looking for information on contemporary piracy in the carribean. Although pirates are not as prevalent in the carribean as around the malacca straits they do exist and are a problem. They tend to target privately craft rather than commercial vessels. Can anyone tell me any more? I am doing a dissertation on piracy and terrorism and could eventually contribute something to this article I guess. scruffylonghairedguy@gmail.com 82.39.97.202 21:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Serbs or Narentines?

Serbs were given the land of Pagania between Croatian Dalmatia and Zachlumia in the first half of the 7th century.

I think it is not correct to link Narentine pirates with Serbian nation in the seventh century - it is to early to talk about Serbs in this area at all for their nucleus was Raska which lies more northeast. This provinces were then inhabited by Narentines and their teritory was among the so called 'Sclavinias', small independent principalities which were later united in larger kingdoms.

Narentine piracy traditions were cherished even while they were in Serbia, serving as the finest Serb warriors.

And this part is obviously written by some who doesn't understand historical circumstances of that time. Pagania, teritory of Narentines was most of the time independant from Serbia or Croatia, later Croatia-Hungary, and no one can speak of serbian warriors or serbian identity of that country, i don't know what is the intention but this simply isn't correct.

Vikings

I was wondering if vikings should be included as pirates. Obviously they plundered Europe, but they often did so under the authority of the Scandinavian nobles. Any thoughts? 200.82.223.63 05:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no. You answered your own question - they had authority. 19:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Surfbruddah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.188.247.6 (talk)

Did they have authority? Can there be such thing as authority to plunder when there is no 'real' authority? In that case the Pirates who lived in the carribean weren't pirates either. Based on the definition of pirate given in the article ("Piracy is a robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on the shore, by an agent without a commission from a sovereign nation) I'd say some Vikings were pirates too. Obviously not all vikings, especially not towards the end of the vikingage, but then again, not all 'seerobbers' in the americas in the 17th century were pirates either. I say Include! Krastain (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Pirate Flags

I found a site that shows the "mythtory" of pirate flags, and the ones the actual pirates used. Maybe we should change some of the wikipedia articles? BonaAdenture.org.uk Wobblies 12:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Life as a pirate

"Unlike traditional Western societies of the time, many pirate clans operated as limited democracies, demanding the right to elect and replace their leaders."

Why pick on Western societies? I suspect the comment applies to pretty much every society of the time (the "classical period" of piracy).

True, but the point is that western-world pirates created a different kind of society shipboard from the one they came from. On the other hand, Chinese and Indian pirates didn't practice democracy on their ships (at least so far as I've found), so they didn't have the same contrast with the societies they originated from.

In other words, in the West life as a pirate was far more democratic than life under the law. In the East, life as a pirate was just as undemocratic as law-abiding life. Pirate Dan 15:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The sections "Life as a pirate" and "Brain Damage" are entirely uncited twaddle and generally violate the NPOV policy. Does anyone mind if I remove them or savagely edit them? --Ossipewsk (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

piracy in North America

I edited the comment that read as follows

"While boats off the coasts of North America and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the Royal Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard have nearly eradicated piracy in U.S. waters and the Caribbean Sea."

to read

"While boats off the coasts of North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the Royal Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard have nearly eradicated piracy in U.S. waters and the Caribbean Sea."

the statement conflicted itself and was not accurate. 84.254.189.64 04:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC) too lazy to register

Shouldn't both sides of pirate life be added then instead of solely focusing in western pirate life? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.206.20 (talk) 11:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested merge

Merge with Maritime piracy.This article seems does not even seem to have so much as a footnote as to the controversy of the terminology of "piracy", and it goes far beyond the recent usage as a synonym for copyright infringement.historical usage has meant various types of thievery, and the act itself in general,even during the golden age of piracy, and some word origins don't even mention anything about the sea. Rodrigue 18:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Maritime piracy.According to several websites [1] [2], there are various origins for the term, and not all include the concept of the sea. 64.229.200.174 19:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Even though this has been closed, I disagree. The main deffintion of the word Piracy, as those websites 64.229.200.174 posted state, is in regards to Piracy on the sea. All of the other types of piracy have their own article. I don't believe someone looking for say, Pirate radio would be searching Piracy. If for some reason they do, there is a link at the top of the page to the disambiguation page. Also, one vote by a user who has never edited before cannot be considered a consensus. I am also going to be placing a link at the top that proposes this page be moved back to Piracy. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also one other thing. I just glanced at the "What links here" for the Piracy page. There is about 1500 pages that link to Piracy. When you merge you are supposed to redirect all of those links to the new page. Seeing as how you never completed the merger and it would be a huge pain to fix all the links. I propose we move the page back. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Maritime Piracy → Piracy — I don't think a consensus was reached on the Merger —Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There was not a consensus to move. At all. There already is an article at Maritime piracy so moving this to Maritime Piracy is just broken. I've restored it. That "piracy" existed for so long as just a redirect after this broken move indicates there isn't some more important meaning of "piracy" that people think of. SchmuckyTheCat

Endorse Schmucky's reversal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

East Asia is not South East Asia

Piracy in East Asia

Main article: Wokou

From the 13th century, Japan based Wokou made their debut in East Asia, initiating invasions that would persist for 300 years.

Piracy in South East Asia began with the retreating Mongol Yuan fleet after the betrayal by their Sri Vijayan allies in the war with Majapahit. They preferred the junk, a ship using a more robust sail layout. Marooned navy officers, consisting mostly of Cantonese and Hokkien tribesmen, set up their small gangs near river estuaries, mainly to protect themselves. They recruited locals as common foot-soldiers known as 'lang' (lanun) to set up their fortresses. They survived by utilizing their well trained pugilists, as well as marine and navigation skills, mostly along Sumatran and Javanese estuaries. Their strength and ferocity coincided with the impending trade growth of the maritime silk and spice routes.

However, the most powerful pirate fleets of East Asia were those of Chinese pirates during the mid-Qing dynasty. bla bla bla bla bla...

I don't know a lot about the history of Piracy in S.E. Asian but I know that

1. pirates in S.E. Asian was indeed existed (and still exist until know)

I don't know whether the South East pirates started to be exist since failed attempt of Kubilai Khan's attack or it has been existed before that time. Hence, the claim need verifiable source. Put in mind that before Kubilai Khan's envoy came to Java in 1293, kingdoms in Nusantara's Archipelago (Makassar, Singhasari, Srivijaya) has set a lot of sea expedition. I might be wrong but I still insist demanding the source of the quoted statement.

The oldest record for maritime piracy in South East Asian, I think, was Zheng He's record when he was in Palembang.

2. While the first paragraph (well, actually the second paragraph) of the section talked about South East Asian Pirates while the rest of the section talked about East Asian Pirates. They were different and unrelated (or minor related).

Hence, the existence of S.E pirates in Piracy in East Asia is meaningless, misleading, unrelated. I proposed two solution :

1. remove the South East Asian paragraph and move it to different section. I see no relation between Wokou and South East Asian pirates.

The record of Piracy in South East Asian prior to 20th centuries are few (There are Zheng He's report and also Dutch report). However, in late 90s till now, the record of piracy has increased and it lead to some agreement between Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore such as joint patrol. [3][4][5]

2. combine the section into "Piracy in East and South East Asia".

I prefer the first one. Separating the section. Kunderemp 18:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Estimated worldwide losses of US $13 to $16 billion per year?

I am not aware of any statistically significant analysis of the estimated losses attributed to piracy a year. I have seen wild estimates like that made in the cited Foreign Affairs article that are usually attributed to private security companies trying to scare customers into purchasing their services. I would request this estimate be removed until statistically significant proof can be cited. PirateHunter 15:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Walking the plank?

Am I the only one that thinks it's odd that when it mentions walking the plank in this page, it claims it's a construct created by J M Barrie's Peter Pan, and yet when you click on the link to "walk the plank" it gives historical accounts of it dating back to the 18th century? Only one of these can be right. Either JM Barrie made it up for Peter Pan, or it's historically accurate. 207.68.250.128 23:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Valid point. Barrie made plank walking appear much more popular with pirates than it ever actually was, but it did happen on occasion historically, so I've changed it. Pirate Dan 15:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jolly Roger

I removed the statement from the introduction that the Jolly ROger of the movies is the Calico Jack flag. The statement was inaccurate for several reasons.

1. There is no uniformity among Jolly Rogers shown in the movies.

2. The so-called Calico Jack flag is not the Jolly Roger most often shown in the movies; Calico Jack's putative Jolly Roger was a skull with crossed swords, but a skull with crossed bones appears more often in the movies. The crossed swords became cinematically popular only in the 1990s, with Cutthroat Island, with the theme continued into the 2000s by the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

3. There is no primary source evidence that the historical Calico Jack Rackham ever actually flew a skull with crossed swords flag. The design attributed to him appears only in secondary sources.

Pirate Dan 14:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I saw that a couple days ago, it was added in by either an IP or a brand-new account. I thought I reverted it, but I was in a hurry so I guess I didn't. Thanks again! Deflagro ^C/_T 21:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge Golden Age of Piracy into here

The article Golden Age of Piracy consists of few paragraphs of history (that would fit into the Caribbean section of this one) plus a half dozen names. Seems to have little of significance that couldn't easily be squeezed in here. Hult041956 00:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am mainly neutral but with a slight disagreement because I believe that the article could be expanded into a larger article. Deflagro ^C/_T 22:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Golden Age could be expanded? I suppose it could. As it stands now, it just seems redundant compared to this ("Piracy") article's "in the Caribbean" section and it's famous pirates list. Hult041956 01:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I think Golden Age of Piracy could definitely be expanded a great deal, as it's definitely a valid topic for its own article, and will try and do so over the next few months. I would say "no" to a merge. Neil ☎ 14:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll yield. Thanks for hearing me out. Hult041956 17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

How about the other merge tag?

Another merge tag (this one from Maritime piracy) has been on this article since February. That article is almost a stub/definition and just points back to this one in its See Also section. Any interest in fixing that situation? Hult041956 18:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No it hasn't. I knew that was added recently so I check the history. It was added October 30. Agree I think it should be merged into here. Deflagro ^C/_T 21:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Oops, my mistake. Yes, in fact it was I who added the tag to this article on October 30. Sorry for the misstatement. What I meant to say is that Maritime piracy has been tagged since February. I came across that article while scanning through an "Articles to be merged" category. So, to be crystal clear... my proposal is to merge in (and redirect) Maritime piracy to Piracy. Anyone else? Hult041956 17:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please write what area you are fromAshleydhs (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Ashley

I performed the complete merge of the stub, Maritime piracy, into this article, Piracy. I saw no objection here to doing so. (Note this is 'not about "Golden age". That merge suggestion was settled just above.) Hult041956 (talk) 23:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Deflagro ^C/_T 00:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Maritime piracy is back (the redirect reverted), as the original author of two years ago wishes to keep it. Hult041956 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I commented on the author's talk page. You did the right thing by talking to him. I think the only thing we can do now is maybe request for comment, or wait for his reply. Deflagro ^C/_T 03:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow...I just realized how much that sounds like I'm talking down to you....Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like that! Deflagro ^C/_T 03:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Headline text

hi no one knows me but i am doing a inquiry on piratres and i was woundering if you could give me some informationon on pirates like what makes them real,how are they real,are they even real no affents but i realy need this information like as soon as you can give it to me so my qwestion here is are pirates real if they are can you tell my what makes them real

The Barrel

As vandal-like my edits may seem to piracy about the barrel. It turns out that it is a true occurance. My English teacher first told my class about the barrel and now I looked up the saying "your turn in the barrel" and it turned out that it is legitimate. I hope you switch back my edit because it is the strange, but verifiable, truth.Moose4545 (talk) 15:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Verifiable? Then source it. Please see WP:V and WP:RS as to why. Gscshoyru (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And please... how about a source other than your English teacher? Hult041956 (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Horuk Barbarossa

I was looking at the Famous historical pirates/privateers, and I noticed that Horuk Barborossa wasn't in here. I read about him in this one book about piracy and he seemed to be a pretty famous pirate (desserving enough to have his own chapter). Please take him into consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk) 01:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Oruç Reis (also called Barbarossa). Barbarossa is Italian for Redbeard. I'm not sure why he is not on that list. In fact I'm not sure why that list is there in the first place... Deflagro ^C/_T 16:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No, this guy was Muslim not Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk) 05:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Oruc was Muslim. That's Barbarossa was the name the Italians gave him. Barbarossa just means Redbeard. Deflagro ^C/_T 21:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Guess thats the guy. Maybe my book has the english spelling of his name.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk • contribs) 02:11, December 24, 2007

Deletion: Famous historical pirates/privateers

I think this section should be deleted. It is often a target of vandalism (IPs adding their own names, etc), it's getting longer with non-famouse people on it (I think soon enough there will be every pirate article on Wikipedia in it), and there is already a list on {{Pirates}} at the bottom of the page. So there isn't really a point for the section, and it's becoming more trouble then it helps. (I'm not talking about List of Fictional Pirates). Thanks! Deflagro ^C/_T 16:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)