Talk:Kevin Sydney

Morph?

Isn't Morph the same character as changeling? He was in the old cartoon, not sure about comics. Tyciol 06:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

They sure are. Same character, different reality. Merger Proposed. 69.182.78.104 07:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I would support the merger, provided that Changling merged into Morph and not vice versa. At this point, Morph has the longer and more significant history. Inkslinger 10:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it should probably look like Blink (comics)

I'd support the Morph too, but since both characters are so radically different, maybe it should stay like this. Also, just for curiousity, when was it confirmed that Morph was Changeling?

opposed - distict characters with their own distict publication history. 66.109.248.114 22:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose, Morph is pretty much an independent character, extremely different from Changeling.--Gonzalo84 23:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

As it has been apporximatly 2 months since the last addition to the discussion, I move discussion be closed with no consensus met. ````

Please see discussion regarding(Merging Alternate Versions of Characters)

Copied from Morph (comics)

"then morph went to take down proteus alone but portus knocked the steel plate out of his head and took over Morph's body." I've edited this and removed "alone". Morph was with the Exiles, and Longshot was right alongside him when Morph "buffed up" and attacked Proteus - he even says that Longshot cancels out Proteus' reality altering powers. Scarlettspiderg 17:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The grammar and composition in this article are pitiful. I added the "cleanup" tag so motivated people can help. Unfortunately, I am not one of those motivated people. Here is a typically dreadful passage: "A fairly good baseball player, a friend, a good student. Morph always used his power to keep everyone at ease with him, being at ease with someone as himself only."24.61.12.141 04:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been seeing this "style" of writing in several comics-related articles. Take a look at the "Modern Age" section of Kara Zor-El, for example (unless someone's already fixed it). Could there be a comics-fan editor around "here" for whom English is a second language, who doesn't necessarily realize how bad their writing is? - Pennyforth 17:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Home Earth

Has it not been defined as to which Earth designation the Morph of the Exiles calls home?--RedKnight 21:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

it's Earth-27. it's where he, Thunderbird and Magnus all came from. Whoever originally put it as Earth-58163 is thinking about Proteus from the House of M universe.

I put the Earth-58163 because I thought that House of M Proteus was a resurrected 616 Proteus. Also, IIRC, all the original members of the Exiles came from different universes, so I doubt Morph came from Earth-27 (Magnus' universe).

Debut

Should Morph's debut be listed as the first episode of the X-Men animated series from the 1990s (just as Firestar's first appearance is listed as Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends)? --- 65.215.37.164 21:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Changeling

Article should definately be merged with Changeling (Marvel Comics). Alternate versions of the same character. Structure similar to Blink (comics) with Exiles version being the main article. (posted by 69.177.251.209)

I agree that this article should be merged in the way suggested above. -Freak104 14:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. That was a little hasty don't you think. Particularly considering there was a previous merge discussion that failed to meet a consensus. Stephen Day 00:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Changeling and Morph are two distict characters with two separate histories. They shouldn't be merged. Stephen Day 00:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with Stephen. Anyway, IMO, if they *are* to be merged, I'd say merge Morph into Changeling because one came before the other. But I oppose merging in this case. BOZ 00:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I can see reversing the merge direction being a more acceptable solution. If someone had expanded the "other versions" section of Changeling to include the various Morphs based on Changeling I don't think there would be many raised eyebrows. The only issue I could see arising from that would be that eventually someone could have argued (fairly effectively) that Morph was such a distinct series of characters that they deserved their own entry. The advantage of merging the Morphs into Changeling is that you can sort the character history out - Morph is an X-Men animated series character (based on the Earth-616 character, Changeling) whose success resulted in other Morphs appearing in two other Marvel dimensions (and apparently another Morph retconned into post-WWII Earth-616). The resulting Changeling entry would then provide a reasonable overview of the development and history of the various characters. While I think keeping them separate would be the way forward reversing the direction of the merges would get less opposition and would result in a better history of the characters that I feel would be most useful to the average reader. (Emperor 01:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC))

Comment This would be acceptable to me and would ease all of my concerns. Stephen Day 01:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It was a drastic step, but somewhere in Wikipedia's guidelines it says to be bold in edits. The Changeling article was barely more than a stub. The Morph article had more about Changeling (pictures and longer descriptions) than the Changeling article itself, so it made sense to move what little wasn't already in the Morph article over. It follows the example established by the Blink article, and the main stream version did come first but is the lesser one in that article. Changeling has been out of the main stream universe for so long that he barely even got a mention in the Marvel Universe Handbook for the Dead; most references to this character are to the current character from the Exiles. I realize there was no consensus, but it was two for and two against. Hardly what I would call a deadlock, because no one really was checking the Changeling article. I think the time it took for you to notice the Changeling article as gone proves the point that no one looks at it. I was bold in my edit, and I stand by my decision. I took a stub and merged it into a good article to improve both. My change improved Wikipedia, because stubs are relatively useless. -Freak104 02:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, but with a merge vote already having taken place, don't you think it would have been a better idea to have announced the merge vote on the Comic project page? It would have given you a better idea about wether or not it was a direction the two articles should go in. Stephen Day 02:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Two articles? I don't know what you're referring to. There was the full article about Morph, which included LOTS of information about Changeling, and the stub about Changeling. The article about Changeling wasn't going anywhere because the character is dead. This helps Changeling get visibility, and reduces the number of stub articles. -Freak104 03:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I don't agree that the Changeling article is a stub. There's enough infomation there to categorize it as a start. That's beside the point though as they are still two separate characters. Even if Changeling (Marvel Comics) was little more than a few sentences I would still oppose the merger on those grounds.

Blink (comics) has been mentioned as an example, but I don't think the two cases are comparable. Both versions of Blink are esentially the same character. Other than the fact that they have the same real name and the same powers that really isn' the case with Changeling and Morph. They are similiar and one is admittedly an update of the other, but there are way too many differences. Stephen Day 22:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the development of Morph he was an X-Men animated character based on Changeling who proved popular enough to be an Earth-295 character with a separate history - they can to all intents and purposes be considered different characters. The bulk of the Blink article is on the Earth-295 character as the Earth 616 one was a throwaway character really only worth a passing mention (although Marvel does give them two separate entries - [1] [2]). (Emperor 20:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC))

• Oppose The character is distinct enough to warrant its own entry. If there is more information on Changeling here then the simple answer is that it should be moved over to the Changeling article. (Emperor 13:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

It's not a vote. Merge them per WP:WAF guidelines.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 17:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Who said anything about this being a vote? Stephen Day 18:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Support: Zythe has a good point. Go to the WP:WAF page, because Changeling (Marvel Comics) does not have notability. All of the information in the Changeling article is contained within the Morph article, plus the Morph article has more about Changeling. The Changeling article is just a useless stub. -Freak104 19:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Changeling was used as a character by Marvel Comics for close to ten years and was then used in the explanation that brough Professor X (inarguably a very significant character) back from his comic book death. These two things together add up to notability in my book. As Emperor says just below here, Changeling (Marvel Comics) should be expanded, not merged into Morph (comics). Just because something is a stub (I'd Ive already stated that I don't think it is a stub - something that has yet to be refuted) doesn't mean the subject matter is non-notable. Stephen Day 22:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

And as I say above that is an argument to edit the material from here into there. Its worth noting that neither is comprehensive. It should be easy enough to satisfy notability for Changeling but it can't be done until all the relevant information is in the right entry and that entry is expanded to give a complete run down of his appearances. (Emperor 20:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC))

Changeling is little more than a stub; it has no information that is not already contained in the Morph article, and it has little information anyways. And yes they are the same character. Why else do they reference each other in the Other versions sections? Those sections in comic pages aren't for similar people, they're about the same person in an alternate universe (House of M, Age of Apocalypse, and Days of Future Past are prime examples of what commonly goes in that section). -Freak104 22:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment One is an update of the other character, that doesn't make them the same character. Why are there separate articles for Marvel's Hyperion from Supreme Power, or the Golden Age Superman?. Its because those two characters are different enough from their alternate versions and have a significant enough individual history that a separate article is warranted. So are Changeling and Morph.

As for it having no more inforation that what is in the Morph article. That is the case right now and that wouldn't be the case if Emporer hadn't advised me to hold off on editing until after this debate was over. The Official Handbook of the Marvel Univere: Deluxe Edition from 1985 has a two page entry on Changeling. There is a lot there that could be added to this article and if it isn't merged into Morph (comics), it will be. Stephen Day 22:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

• Merge - All Changeling/Morph/Kevin Sydney references should be combined onto one page pere Wikipedia and Comics project guidelines. AS for the claim that these characters are too different to be combined, isn;t that waht makes them alternate versions of each other? AoA Cyclops doesn't get a seperate entry just because he was a one-eyed villian. Please tell me you didn't just compare a third tier character like Morph to a worldwide icon like Golden Age Superman that had 30+years in a solo book. Perhaps this needs to be looked at by a neutral arbitrator whose only interest is following Wikipedia guidelines. -- 12.76.154.62 18:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, the Superman refernece was a little over the top, but what about the entry for Supreme Power's Hyperion? Stephen Day 21:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

You know what, you're right I have become to emotionally involved with this argument and its time to back out. I still believe my position is right and the only thing I can do is let my arguments stand as they are. If that's not enough -- so be it. :) Stephen Day 23:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• No merge - This discussion comes mere days after the most recent tags for merger between these two characters where removed, following a no-concensus decision. The discussion should really be carried out on the Changling Talk Page. I still feel these characters are wholly separate and different, evidence by publication history and character biography. I wonder where this level of discussion was 3 months ago. Regardless, I still vote, no merge. 66.109.248.114 23:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

• Merge, to follow guidelines - I had pulled myself out of this discussion for a few days because I was too emotionally involved, but thankfully someone backed me up. "All Changeling/Morph/Kevin Sydney references should be combined onto one page per Wikipedia and Comics project guidelines." I think that sums this problem up pretty well. Emotions need to be taken out of it and guidelines followed. (I realize that IP address only has the one edit, but it is not a sockpoppet, I don't do that. If I had taken the time myself to look up Wikipedia guidelines I would have posted them as myself.) -Freak104 11:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• • Nope, not a sock puppet, I'm just on dial-up. But like Zythe^{Talk to me!} mentioned above, this viloates WP:WAF guidelines. It also goes against Project guidelines and could qualify as WP:Fancruft. Because of the guideline viloations this may also qualify as a consensus exception WP:CONEXCEPT. This should probably also be applied to the Mariko Yashida article. -- 12.76.136.200 18:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

• Merge - I tried proposing this months ago and still support the merge, thanks for bring the discussion back to life. -- 69.183.15.244 19:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

So, does this end the debate and allow the merge to be completed? -Freak104 02:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe consensus was reached.66.109.248.114 20:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say opinion is pretty much split down the middle. Given that this vote started shortly after a previous merge proposal resulted in no consensus this shouldn't be much of a surprise. I'd suggest leaving it a few months and if it does get put back up for discussion I'd suggest reversing the direction of the merge - the various Morphs could be considered as variants of Changeling (it seems the change in name was purely a practical issue - if they'd been the same name there wouldn't have been this discussion) and it would also help better explain the history of the various Morph characters which I don't feel this current entry actually does (I had to go to the MCDP to get the various characters straight in my head). So although I can see a good arguement for keeping them separate I can also see that merging Morph into Changeling might be the most satisfactory solution. (Emperor 04:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC))

Concensus not necessary. If you look at previous posts you will see that having these as separate articles violates Wikipedia guidelines. I think that is what 66.189.137.113 tried to show with his/her edit, but unfortunately he/she went about it in an inappropriate way. There is no room for debate anymore; Wikipedia guidelines states that they have to be merged. The reason for this post and my previous post is to determine which article title should be the one used for the merged articles. And please don't post comments about not merging them, it won't change Wikipedia guidelines. Freak104 12:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I am unsure why there is the need to state things like "there is no room for debate." According to the definition of guideline and "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." While I don't feel this case is really important enough to count as an exception it certainly leaves the door open for debate. Equally if anything is failing the Comics Project guidelines on alternate characters it is this entry - Morph is an alternate version of Changeling and should have started life as a section over there and been split off if it took on a life of its own (following Comics guidelines on this). The problem is the were both started 4 years ago before such things were bolted down - so we have to deal with the cards as dealt to us and the question to ask is: If this had been part of Changeling from the start would people be asking for the Morph information to be split off to its own article? Personally I tend to lean towards trimming the fat and keeping things together.

So what to do? Well as I've said I'd probably support a merge of Morph to Changeling (and a few people opposing the merge from Changeling to Morph said they might look more favourably if the merge directions are reversed). As note in the previous paragraph if we were starting this all today Morph would be part of Changeling (following the guidelines on alternative characters) and as I've said previously the Morph entry doesn't do a great job of explaining the actual characters history and development (Morph as originally a character in the X-Men animated series for starters - albeit one based on Changeling, with the change of name being made for copyright reasons). I sketched out a clearer "other versions" section over on the Changeling entry [3] and the different bits on the characters from here could be easily slotted into the relevant sections over there.

Although probably not acceptable to everyone (and they have a reasonable arguement for keeping things as they are) I think practically and conceptually this would be the best possible solution that would result in a solid entry which would also give a good overview of the history of the various characters. (Emperor 13:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC))

I have supported this merge for a while, but I had always supported it as Morph becoming the sole article. I now support Changeling as the sole article to help bring an end to the discord (hopefully). Can people agree that Morph should be merged into Changeling (as Emperor suggested)? I hope the answer is yes. Freak104 02:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Merging Morph (comics) into Changeling (Marvel Comics) is acceptable. Stephen Day 03:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Yeah I'm OK with making Changeling the main article. I would suggest making the Exiles Morph the first entry under "Other Versions" since he is the most prominant version. -- 69.183.15.244 06:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm also in agreement that keeping Changeling as the main page is acceptable for the merge -- 12.76.152.87 07:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment I would disagree, that consensus is necessary, particularly for instances like this. The pages recommended to be merged are non-duplicated and they do not overlap in material. Both characters and pages have developed past the point reconciliation. Guidlines in themselves due not dictate action, they are merely a trend to follow, which would be a disservice to both articles in this case. I want to note again, that if a merge were to go thru, it should be Morph into Changling, and we are having this discussion on the wrong page. No merge. 66.109.248.114 21:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fix up

I'll start a new section for discussing polishing this entry up. One thing I think we should look at is having the X-Men animated character first in other versions. It is unusual but as it stands it is important for the Morph character's history as they first appeared in the animated series. As this is considered one of Marvel's Earths (921031) it isn't that much of a squeeze to put it in there. Either that or more in the section with the animation character above other versions. (Emperor 02:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC))

I agree with Emperor's suggestions. I just made the major edit/move/merge so that the clean-up process could finally get started since the debate was over. I never claimed to have done a perfect job with the merge, it does need clean-up. Freak104 02:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Any preference on whether to have it in other versions or above? I think we can go with the former as an exception to the general guidelines as it is important for getting the character development straight.

Oh I also brought over the Exiles Morph infobox as that is OK (as far as I'm aware) and helps give a good snapshot of the character). (Emperor 03:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC))

Bringing the infobox over was a good idea. And I think you have a point in maybe getting the 'Other versions' into chronological order so that their development is more understandable. Freak104 12:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't list the XM:TAS Morph under "Other Versions". If you want it listed before the AoA/Exiles Morph's, I think moving the "In Other Media" section above "Other Versions" would be a better option. -- 69.183.15.244 05:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The Merge

I think this is a step backwards. How many fans of Morph have no idea who Changeling is? The Wikiguidelines are -not- set in stone. Lots42 09:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Before the merge would have been the time to bring something like that up. The merge is done, and now we are working on fixing it up. Look at the above sub-heading and see what you can do to help. Freak104 12:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I -thought- I already brought it up beforehand. I can still have the opinion it was the wrong thing to do. Lots42 20:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Debate is always open. Who knows - at some point in the future this might be split back off again. As Changeling's name was changed to Morph purely for copyright reasons alone it does make sense to have Morph under Changeling as they are just other versions of the character. Obviously this doesn't rule out a separate article for Morph but it would have to be as an exception to the comics project guidelines on alternate characters and I am unsure Morph is distinct enough to warrant their own entry (similar powers, same general design, etc.) but there is always room for discussion. If there are major/specific concerns then fire away.

I would support tagging a sentence onto the lead that says something like "Due to copyright reasons other versions of Changeling in the Marvel Universe went by the name Morph" so people following a link in aren't thrown. (Emperor 00:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

Picture?

Can anyone find a picture of Changeling to put in his superhero box? The article would look a lot better if there were an image at the top of the article. Freak104 20:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Name change?

Should the article be changed to "Kevin Sydney" so there isn't so much confusion/controversy over the title of the article? -Freak104 03:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed much confusion/controversy. It seems fine as long as the lead is specific. (Emperor 03:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC))

Fair use rationale for Image:Morphanimted2.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Morph/Changeling separate characters

Can someone please cite the reference that Morph and Changeling are the same character? Been following this character for a long time. Never have known of the connection, other than they have shapeshifting ability!

(robertcoogan 19:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC))

I suggest that you scan through the above text before making controversial page moves and deleting large bunches of text. It's important to establish consensus, and you removed all the text from an established character from Wikipedia. 207.229.140.148 (talk) 15:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

||Right now there is no consensus based upon the aforementioned discussion. Even he merge was made without any sort of agreement on how exactly the merge would be made. Move that the characters be made distinct. There is more than enough information to justify making this the case. (robertcoogan 12:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

Then I suggest that before the merging of two separate characters a link other than them having the same name be established.

(robertcoogan 04:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

This is not vandalism, there only needs to be a justification for the change.

(robertcoogan 04:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC))