Talk:Caregiver

Blurb for DYK

Did You Know

...a caregiver is a spouse, relative, friend or neighbor of a disabled person who assists with activities of daily living, often helping that person continue to live in their own home?

No I didn't,

And so I and millions of others in the UK and worldwide will continue to use the word "carer" which at least has the dignity of being enshrined in legislation. Merging "carers" into the much clumsier coining: "voluntary caregivers", given that it is used internationally, was a poor editorial decision, IMHO. Excalibur 01:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Spousal caregivers

I would like to add a page for spousal caregivers, as a separate, distinct category of family (voluntary) caregivers. I just added a link to the Well Spouse Association, http://wellspouse.org, of which I am the President. I hope it is not conflict of interest for me or for one of our people to write a page on spousal caregiving. Spousal caregiving is separate from other forms of family caregiving, because of the more intense and intimate nature of the relationship between the two family members. There is also a general perception of an elderly couple, one looking after the other, with a terminal illness. We would be writing about younger couples, from their 20's on up, in which one person has a chronic illness or disability that requires some measures of care, increasingly involved, by the other.

We are the only group in North America that is devoted to the support of all spousal caregivers, but I would include links to groups such as Bipolar Significant Others, or Young Cancer Spouses.

Could I please have comment on this? My name is Richard Anderson, my EM is richard@wellspouse.org

Wellspouse 20:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)16:03 March 12, 2007

Caregiver vs. Carer

What can we done then about making different entries for each term, especially since they do not mean the same. I work with Caregivers, and I would like to clean this page up (which might help Caregivers find more informations and resources).

TLCSIU 18:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Excalibur. We should use the term "carer" as it is the most appropriate term and it is enshrined in UK legislation. --Nicholas 21:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what provoked Stemonitis to undo all of Excalibur's good work [1] ? The term 'carer' is the accepted terminology. It is used by most international organisations and it is enshrined in respected UK legislation.--Nicholas 12:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Enshrined" is a poor choice of word. "Used" would be more appropriate. --Stemonitis 15:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Used" is absolutely fine by me. Carers is certainly used and recognised internationally. Caregivers isn't. It's really that simple, isnt it? Let's use another analogy: The difference between the use of the two words by academics and carers is like the difference between eggs and bacon: whilst the chicken is interested, the pig is committed. As for me, I'm a carer, I'm definitely not a caregiver. How would you feel if I referred to entomologists as entymologists? You would probably be mortified. OK, well that's how I feel when you amend my very well-informed edits. I agree much more work is needed on the article, but let's at least agree the name of it first, then get stuck in to the finer detail. Excalibur 23:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The name was agreed upon in a previous AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carers), and Wikipedia prefers singular titles anyway (which would mean a move to Carer). We also have WP:ENGVAR, which prefers the earlier or established title of a page when that page deals with topics relevant to people who speak different dialects around the world. In this type of situation, the name should not be changed to accord with personal preference, and should decidedly not be done unilaterally. If you would like the page to be moved, please create a discussion space here and then list the page with a link to the discussion in the "Other proposals" section at Wikipedia:Requested moves. There is no evidence of a consensus as of yet. Dekimasuよ! 00:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Arigato Gozaimas Dekimasu. With the greatest respect, I disagree profoundly. I am a carer. I have been a carer, and a carers activist for 18 years. I know what I am talking about. What are your own caring credentials? To attain a concensus we would need several hundred other carers involved in this discussion. I am simply not prepared to let ignorant people who have not cared for others determine this issue without coming up with any proper arguments. The word "caregiver" is not owned by carers internationally, and is virtually unknown outside of the USA. I have written around 90% of this page so far...whilst you have been silent and contributed virtually nothing. The international community supports the idea that carers can define their collective identity with this word carers..it belongs to us, and not you. There are around 1 billion carers in the world. We have a collective identity, and we have spent the last 40 years fighting for it. You disagree? OK, first point is what are your own personal experiences of caring? Let's talk by all means..from the basis of experience and the facts, not thin air.Excalibur 01:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I do actually have an alternative suggestion: keep both pages and let them go their own way for a while rather than getting involved in these rather silly tiffs. There are far more important arguments on Wikipedia, like which minor topographical pimples should be called marilyns. In time one usuage will thrive, whilst the other shrinks. Let the Americans do their own thing, and the rest of the world do theirs. I say TomAHtoe and you say TomAYto? We can always provide a handy hyperlink in case the two sides decide to talk to each other over the pond. Maybe the two concepts of social identity are actually very different...we are all socialists over here, y'know? Carer is dictionary definition: carers is a movement: "And you can't take that away from us". Chill out, y'all. Excalibur 01:45, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

You are allowed to strenuously object to the name of the article, but please respect the rules of engagement on Wikipedia. Per Wikipedia:Content forking, the pages should not exist in parallel. You note that I have not personally contributed to the article. That is correct; I am a neutral observer trying to make sure that what goes on here reflects a neutral point of view. Consensus is determined by the considered judgments of Wikipedia editors. A move that has been objected to, as this one has, cannot be considered uncontroversial and should not be performed unilaterally, or by a single editor who claims to represent a billion potential editors. If you can present a valid case in a move proposal as to why the page should be moved, you will see the views of other Wikipedia editors coalesce around your position. If you continue to move the page on the grounds of special claims and without considering the input of other editors, there won't be any progress here. Dekimasuよ! 02:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The primary rules appear to me to be "edit boldly", and that's what I am doing, on the basis of my own knowledge and expertise in this subject. I am satisfied that I have already put strong and convincing arguments that the word carers is universally accepted by international organisations and the word caregivers is not, but my edits are consistently being reverted by people who appear to have no knowledge of the topic or to have even read the article itself. I think the onus is rather on those who wish to revert my edits to prove that the word caregiver is acceptable and universal, not the other way around. This they have signally failed to do. I have little time for getting involved in niceties, and I'm getting bored reversing this article. I found it in a mess and made some major, sensible and well-informed improvements, now frankly I am, wondering why I even bothered.Excalibur 23:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I am Communication Manager for Carers UK and would like to add to this debate. 'Voluntary caregiver' is not a term that is accepted anywhere in the world by any organisation working to improve the lives of carers. Voluntary means being a volunteer and this implies a choice. Since carers often do not have a choice this is misleading. I would urge very strongly that the prefix Voluntary is dropped from the title as it does not reflect the content of the page.

Dekimasu has stated 'there is no evidence of a consensus'. "Caregiver" is only used in North America. Carer is used throughout the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and in non-English speaking countries across Europe. For example the organisation Eurocarers [2] Given the different returns for the two words on Google, you could argue that the 'consensus' globally is to go with carer rather than caregiver.

Those of you outside the world of disability may wonder why on earth it matters what the word is? Consistency of the use of term is extremely important since, in the UK for example, the word carer is embedded in legislation and given a legally binding definition. Carers ability to access the support and help they need is dependent on a correct understanding of the word and it's legal meaning by health and social care professionals and the wider public. Therefore it is critical that Wikipedia gets this right. --Matt Hill Carers UK 16:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move July 2007

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Voluntary_caregiver → carers —(Discuss)— nobody appears to know what a voluntary caregiver is and nobody wants to be called one to their face, and anyway the internationally accepted terminology is carers, plural, not singular because an individual carer is a simple dictionary definition whilst carers are a massive international social movement — a quick search of google makes it clear that carers is a vastly better used terminology Excalibur 00:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Quite by accident I just came across this american blog [3] that identifies the confusion and comes up with a new word: caretaker - this to me is a person who cleans out the school toilets and minds the boiler-room not an unpaid family carer! Quote: "OK, so we all know there's an ongoing struggle within the disability rights organization between PWDs and their carers. Carers, or caretakers, are the people who help us with all that stuff we have trouble with, ie. cleaning, cooking, dressing, etc. The caretaker can be a parent, partner, or other family member. Often the carers are paid by the PWD or disability healthcare benefits." so it seems that even the Americans are confused but they are using the word "carers"

Its only a guide to usage, but Google gives 16,700,000 hits for carers. 679 for "voluntary caregiver" , and 13,500,000 for caregivers. If we then go to the first hit on google for "caregiver" it comes up with [http://www.aoa.gov/prof/aoaprog/caregiver/careprof/progguidance/resources/caregiving_terms.asp National Family Caregiver Support Program (NFCSP)]. A set of definitions by the Administration on Aging (AoA) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

• Caregiver: Anyone who provides assistance to another in need.

• Family Caregiver: Used interchangeably with informal caregiver and can include family, friends or neighbors.

• Informal Caregiver: Anyone who provides care without pay and who usually has personal ties to the care recipient. Examples include family, friends and neighbors. The caregiver can be a “primary” or “secondary” caregiver, can provide full- or part-time help, and may live with the care recipient or separately.

I suppose we then need to consider the real meaning of these words: Both "informal" and "voluntary" imply a free choice. Sadly this is often far from the case - many carers are children, adults who have to give up work, or elderly people who see themselves as having no choice, for economic or emotional reasons, but to put their life on hold whilst they provide unpaid support to a loved one. Carers hate the words "informal" and "voluntary" because they know from bitter experience how they were forced into caring simply because there were no other realistic alternatives.

If this proves anything it is that the Americans are very confused about terminology. The rest of the world isn't, and that's partly because Carers UK launched the "reclaim the name" campaign some years back to resolve this issue once and for all by settling on the word "carers" - which is the word carers themselves want to use. Its a fundamental principle of Wikipedia that, unless there are overwhelming reasons to the contrary, tribes, classes and groups of people have the right to self-determination in such an important issue as nomenclature.

Excalibur 14:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Caregivers is the English word; carers is a politically correct neologism; our style is to avoid them. This is particularly undesirable if, as the rhetoric above suggests, this is becoming an Anglo-American division. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support Carers is the internationally recognised term. Please, Pmanderson, your post here seems verging close to a personal attack and we also avoid those. --Nicholas 09:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• I don't think I am a neutral observer anymore, so I'll participate. I oppose this move. I would consider a change to the adjective, if that's what you consider the major issue. As far as legislation/officiality in one region is concerned, it seems to be superceded by WP:ENGVAR. Carers is not a mutually intelligible term, the current setup was agreed upon in a previous AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carers), and Wikipedia naming conventions prefer singular titles (which would mean a move to Carer). Maybe there's a move to make here, but I don't think it's this one. Thank you for making a complete listing. Dekimasuよ! 00:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy with 'carer', in the singular, rather than the plural 'carers'.--Nicholas 12:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Support the motion. Carers is an internationally recognised term, If not then why do we have an international carers weeks. Carers look after family,partners or friends in needof help because they are ill,frail.or have a disability. The care that they provide is unpaid. The word caregiver to me indicates a paid position,they do not provide care merely a paid service.Xjacktar 16:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose carer is less common. 70.55.88.11 03:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose If we do move to carer(s), I think the singular is appropriate than "carers" Vaoverland 11:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose as nominated. Move Voluntary caregiver → Caregiver. Carers is ambiguous and not a good choice for an article like this. What difference is there between a caregiver and a voluntary caregiver? If it is only lack of pay, then that is not sufficient to base an entire article on. If the usage of the two terms is in fact different, then there should be two articles. Vegaswikian 22:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • And if this change is made, don't worry about the dab page. Just delete it and fold the little that is there into the main article no need to a dab. Vegaswikian 22:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the meaning of "caregiver" may conflict with the meaning of "caretaker" in British English. Dekimasuよ! 05:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• According to google, there are '8,210,000 hits for "carer"'. This singular form is less common than the '16,800,000 hits for "carers"'. Anyway, this isn't an anglo-us division, this is more a question of the rest of the world's carers have settled on carer and carers, whilst the US and a few assorted academics can't make up their mind at all and insist on calling us something else. There is a huge difference between a family or unpaid carer, and a paid person carrying out a similar range of tasks: these have little to do with the functions, and everything to do with the powerful sense of identity and social exclusion shared by carers. Another analogy: how would doctors like it if we patients ganged up on them and unilaterally redirected their page to quacks because it was in popular use? Likewise negro vs black people. Carers is our name, and we have every right as the group affected to define it.Excalibur 18:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The naming convention is this: Convention: In general only create page titles that are in the singular, unless that noun is always in a plural form in English. This is clearly not the case. I further find your analogy confusing, because you use Google hits to justify your preferred plural title (even though "caregiver" returns more hits than "carer"), and then say that we shouldn't base the title on popular use.

This is not a split of "the world" against the United States - the English version of the website of the European organization listed here is written in British English because the United Kingdom is a member of the group, and you can also view the website in German or Italian. Likewise, the word in Japanese is neither "carer" nor "caregiver", but "kaigosha" or "kaigonin" ("-nin" and "-sha" both mean "person"), which is certainly not evidence one way or the other for international support of one term starting with "care". My Japanese dictionary further recognizes that "caregiver" is "mainly American" while "carer" is "British".

I question the idea that self-identification comes into question at all here, when there is clearly no consensus as to what the correct self-identifier is. At any rate, while I'm happy to recognize your right to personally self-identify in any way you choose, and I'm happy to identify individual organizations of "carers" as they name themselves in Wikipedia articles, there is not a fundamental right for a heterogeneous group to choose the title of a Wikipedia article even if a self-identifier has been universally agreed upon. In particular, it is one of only several factors discussed at Wikipedia:Naming conflict. Dekimasuよ! 02:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are different kinds of carers/caregivers: professionals, such as nurses and doctors; and volunteers, such as family members or friends. (I don't think either name is right or wrong, so long as it stays at one.) – Marco79 11:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 06:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

yes there is a perfect consensus...all the carers want it moved but two or three academicians dont. Frankly, I would call that a consensus of the enlightenened ...I flatly refuse to be called something that I would never dream of calling myself by people who have never done my job - thats ludicrous logic. Excalibur 23:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Carers...

Well, I feel voluntary Caregiver is too much of a mouthful for people and inevitably it will be shortened in common usage to Carers anyway so why not start off that way.

I don't think it's a US/UK issue, I think a simpler 'label' is more effective for all in the long run. When people ask what you do, I honestly think people will have less of a problem saying they're 'Carers' than using the longer term of Volunteer Caregivers.

Let's keep it simple people the Carers life is already complicated enough!

Carers

May I add a personal experience that favors "carer(s)" over "(voluntary) caregiver(s)"? In another context, searching for academic papers concerning (unpaid, "family") carers, I was astonished to find that the search word "caregiver(s)" yielded papers about health care professionals (sic), e.g., consultants, medical doctors, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, nurses. Such usage may explain why some contributors feel it's necessary to qualify "caregiver" by the word "voluntary." (I don't have tildes on my keyboard) fenlg

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED from Voluntary caregiver to Caregiver, per discussion below. The disambiguation page that was previously at Caregiver, I moved to Caregiver (disambiguation). If it would be better as a redirect here or something, please make it do whatever it needs to do; I was just getting it out of the way. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

---

There are some excellent reasons given in the previous discussion last year for changing the name of this page to "carer" - the previous request was to change it to "carers" and this failed in part because of the use of a plural form in contravention of Wiki naming conventions. So, a new year, and a new attempt to get this right: To summarise the main reasons for the request are:

• carer is preferred by carers themselves, whilst voluntary caregiver is primarily used by professionals. People have the right to self determination
• carer is used in much legislation
• carer is used by virtually all international carers organisations and at most international conferences
• carer is short and simple - good plain universal English on both sides of the Atlantic and much further afield. It can also be prefixed if required to add meaning: e.g child carer, unpaid carer, family carer, spousal carer, black carer.
• voluntary caregiver is a misnomer because unpaid carers are often involuntary - e.g. child carers
• voluntary caregiver is not even agreed terminology in the USA - many people still use "family caregiver" "carer" or "caretaker", so there is no clear consensus in US English
• carer is a very popular word - and has over 4 million hits on google, compared with the very obscure 4,850 hits for "voluntary caregiver"
• the article itself needs much work, and this change in name would encourage carers themselves to get involved in taking ownership, editing it and bringing it up to date. Nobody wants to edit a page that calls them something they don't recognise or agree with.

Your support and comments please! Excalibur (talk) 10:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Has anything changed since the previous request six months ago? If the problem is the "voluntary" aspect of the current title, consider a move to caregiver. — AjaxSmack 01:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please compare apples to apples. Google hits for carer are 3,360,000 and for caregiver 5,540,000.  :Vegaswikian (talk) 08:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Vegaswikian - fair point! But I just tried seeing what all these hits really mean, and after 929 actual hits on caregiver, Google gives up: In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 929 already displayed. If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included. Furthermore, many of the hits seem to refer to childcare not caring for a disabled relative, e.g. http://www.carriethecaregiver.com/episode1/index.html If we then look at the omitted results they stop at 1000 with this one: http://childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ClickedLink=300&ck=10160&area=27 - which bears no relation whatsoever to the subject of this article - its about looking after children again: "What types of caregivers provide maternity care? What are my options? Several types of midwives and several types of physicians provide prenatal care, attend births, and care for women after birth in the United States. This page provides information about these options". Based on this search the word caregiver is simply too vague and widely used - whilst carer has become more specific. Carer gets to 903 entries before google gives up on me. This is the last hit: "Family Interventions in Mental Illness: International Perspectives - Google Books Result" so at least it is relevant to the subject. But on reflection maybe counting google hits isn't that useful a benchmark after all!Excalibur (talk) 10:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, google does have its flaws if you try and use it to determine things like common name or primary use. I think part of the problem here is the common person knows what a caregiver is. Most don't know what a carer is. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be true as far as the US goes, but not in the rest of the English-speaking world. - I think that what seems to have happened is that the carers movement in the UK and Europe has gone its own way, which is very understandable given that the US is such a huge and complex place linguistically and socially and that there is a stronger tradition of user-led voluntary action here in Europe. So whilst carers in the UK, english-speaking Commonwealth and Europe etc have acted firmly and decisively to stake their distinctive claim to the term "carer", the agenda in the US is still largely led by professionals who use jargon and misnomers like "voluntary caregiver" - which no self-respecting carer here would ever recognise or accept. As I understand it, the US word "caregiver" (which by the way is never used on this side of the pond at all) seems to have a generic meaning including childcare and paid care. This is a big problem for unpaid carers here, because they have campaigned for fifty years not be confused with paid carers. So over here there has been a long and successful campaign to get the work "carer" recognised and into the statute books and dictionaries, which it has been now for over 25 years. I dont really know how wikipedia deals with these kind of transatlantic issues, but I do know that having fought so hard and so long for recognition, this one will simply not go away or be airbrushed.

I do wonder if - as a possible compromise - the "iron rule" couldn't be broken in this case and a separate page be created for "carer" with mutual links that accepts that we are not really in disagreement, merely we have gone in very different directions in terms of organisation, self-identification and terminology. We are talking about 7 million carers here in the UK alone, it really isn't a trivial matter...for example whilst they are both fizzy drinks, Coca Cola is not the same as Irn Bru (our national drink here in Scotland), and likewise classes of people are self-defined culturally rather than by some grand scheme of things.Excalibur (talk) 01:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an excellent analysis from Excalibur and a persuasive attempt to reach a compromise. If we can find a few references to back-up this narrative then I'm sure we'll be able produce a balanced and informative article. Nicholas (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I had never heard the word 'carer' before being directed to this page based on the rather inflammatory opening paragraph (which I have now edited). True, I'm an American and not a carer/caregiver/whathaveyou, but I have certainly known people personally who were caring for disabled relatives, and I think it's overstating things to say that Americans fail to use 'carer' because we prefer to impose jargon on people. It's the only colloquial word I've ever heard here, and it's used by the people themselves, not just those who write articles about them. (And, in fact, colloquially, I probably wouldn't use 'caregiver' to refer to anything other than a carer, at least if I understand the definitions Excalibur has offered correctly. The dictionary may use it for paid homecare of various sorts, but that's not how I hear it being used among people I know.) My suggestion would be to make a separate article on the history of the carers movement in the UK and elsewhere rather than simply splitting this article in two. This topic is certainly significant enough to warrant both an article about political milestones, etc. and one defining the various terms, explaining where they're used, and listing prominent organizations. If the word 'caregiver' is generally considered offensive outside of the US, the article could also use a section about that, but I'd like to see some links to articles or at least blog posts by more than one person, and I don't think this belongs in the introduction to the article. Excalibur, you clearly do have more expertise in this area than most people here, but your use of "literate hemisphere" does little to inspire confidence in your reliability. Franzeska (talk) 19:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If we really have two very different uses, then having two articles makes sense to me. However the introductions would need to reference the other term in the text to explain a bit about why two articles. I don't think a hat note would be sufficient. There is still an issue with the possible need to split out 'caregiver' and 'voluntary caregiver', but that can be resolved later. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per the previous discussion, mutual intelligibility problems, and WP:ENGVAR. I fail to see that anything has changed since last time. The proposal here does not seem to me to be an unbiased representation of the previous discussion. Also oppose any POV forks and hope that there won't be any unilateral moves this time around. Dekimasuよ! 05:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Carers do not wish their identity to be defined by people who are not carers: that's the fundamental principle at stake here. In the UK and Europe we have a more mature, carer-led movement which has already chosen their preferred terminology and this has been accepted in UK Law, whilst in the USA, no such user-led movement exists, there is much local fragmentation and disagreement. Therefore WP:ENGVARshould if anything favour the British variant which has a wide consensus. Several carers have contributed to the earlier debate, and without exception all were in favour of the term "carer/carers". There is a fundamental and over-riding principle at at stake here: the right to self-identification. [[4]] Can we at least start by agreeing that the word "voluntary" is offensive and inaccurate, and work from there? Excalibur (talk) 11:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that voluntary is unnecessary and see why it's offensive. I would support a move to caregiver. I had never heard the word carer before looking at this page, so to support a move to that, I want more substantial evidence that this is not just a personal preference. I'm not denying that you know more on the subject than I, but I keep seeing caregiver listed as the primary term and carer as a possible alternative in places like the dictionary on the Disabled People's Association, Singapore page. Without more evidence, this sounds like a matter of taste or original research or whathaveyou. If just plain old caregiver is a controversial and/or offensive term, there must be carer organization websites that mention this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franzeska (talk • contribs) 18:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. The addition of voluntary is unnecessary disambiguation, that is implied. In Australia, carer is the term used commonly, professionally and in legislation; Caregiver is used mainly in politically motivated reports, but would be better than the current title. Andrewa (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I was inclined to oppose this because "carer" has been described as a politically correct neologism that is not immediately intelligible to Americans, a description that is largely accurate.

However, from the article it appears that the self-awareness of carers/caregivers as a social entity exists primarily in the UK and Europe. This, and the official use of the term "carer" are reflected in the article. (See UK history and legislation section for examples such as Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000.) It's not that carers are called "caregivers" in the USA; they don't exist conceptually in the same sense in the USA. (A little like hillwalkers). Because of this, WP:ENGVAR would suggest carer as the appropriate title.

Furthermore, there doesn't appear to be a clear rule at Wikipedia about using regional politically correct neologisms for titles. (E.g., "homemaker" rather than housewife, Native Americans in the United States rather than American Indians in the United States, chair (official) rather that chairman, &c.)

Therefore, support However, abstain from supporting the move. — AjaxSmack 20:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

All of the leanings you refer to were introduced into the article by the editor who proposed this move, himself. This is what the article looked like before he started editing it to push things towards the European perspective, prominently discussing the NFCA. I disagree that the group of "caregivers" doesn't exist conceptually in the United States. Dekimasuよ! 05:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If carer and caregiver are significantly different concepts, is there enough material for two articles? No change of vote, at least not yet. Andrewa (talk) 08:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say "caregivers" doesn't exist conceptually in the USA, I said doesn't exist in the same sense. Maybe I should have said that the collective political mobilization of the group appears to be less developed in the US and therefore the encyclopedic importance of the topic would be more important in UK/Europe. Certainly there are caregivers in the US (although the website you cited uses the term "family caregivers"[5]). I don't support a two-article solution which would be a clear content fork. (Perhaps it was wrong of me to compare hillwalking which would suggest content differences as seen here.) The two terms refer to the same thing; "carer" is a lame-sounding neologism and it is unclear whether "voluntary caregiver" is original research or a descriptive (voluntary + caregiver). And it does appear that the article is owned by someone with a "carer" agenda. So, on those notes, I think I'll just abstain from this discussion. — AjaxSmack 16:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If the political mobilization really is much more developed in the UK, then an article like Carers movement may be justified. Considering that Americans generally do not understand the word 'carer' and that people from other English-speaking countries do understand 'caregiver', I'm not keen on the current move request. However, I've seen enough different blog posts (including ones from Americans) complaining about the use of 'voluntary' that I don't just think this is just Excalibur's personal bias talking. The term isn't original research though: I see it used widely on government sites like this one: [6]. It appears to be the standard legal term in the US, while 'family caregiver' and just plain 'caregiver' are more popular colloquially. I would support splitting the article into Caregiver, which would cover paid and unpaid caregivers in general and Carers movement, which would be about the history of the movement in the UK and to a lesser extent in other parts of the world as applicable. Disability and Disability rights movement have separate articles, so I don't think it's unreasonable to do something similar here. Franzeska (talk) 17:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Franzeska has come up with a very acceptable compromise - the analogy with Disability and Disability rights movement is fairly compelling. Carers aren't insulted with a correctly prefixed use of the word "caregiver" but they do have an issue with defining their separate identity from paid workers, in both the US and the rest of the English speaking world. This is reflected to some extent in the use of the term "Family Caregiver" in the USA - The only reason carers don't like this coinage either is that unpaid carers include friends, lovers, and neighbours, who are not family.

As for neologisms, carer is almost certainly a much older term than caregiver, but right now I cant evidence that. Why dont we run with Franzeska's suggestion? Excalibur (talk) 16:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Support two articles, Carrer and Caregiver. I believe this the suggestion you are supporting. I don't belive that there was any opposition to this. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, do we have a consensus on that? Let's give it a couple of days, and if we are all agreed then I'd appreciate some advice from someone who has done this before about which bits go where and how to do this - unless anyone else wants to have a go, if so please get stuck in. Excalibur (talk) 02:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Splitting carer out looks like moving some of the intro, and sections 1-4 into the Carer article. Some of the other sections may also need to be moved in part but that may just involve reading the entry and seeing if it is about the system in Europe or the US. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Support two articles, though as I said before, I suggest that the carers one be named something like Carers movement since the essential difference (and reason for having two articles) is the level of organization and political activism/awareness in the UK vs. the US. (But I defer to others' judgment here.) Looking on google, I see (in rough order of popularity) "carers movement", "carers' movement", "carer movement", and "carer's movement", among other things. I think the plural "carers" requested by Excalibur in the previous move request would be justified in the context of "Carers movement" but not in a single-word title. My suggestion is that the current content about legislation and history be moved to the new article, while names of international organizations should go in both. (And, of course, both articles should be expanded subsequently.) Franzeska (talk) 16:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Carers' movement, or Carers' rights movement do you think...and I assume the apostrophe is collective? Also, what would we do with the redirects of carer and carers - to say nothing of the other variants like voluntary carer, voluntary caregiver, informal carer, informal caregiver, etc etc....Excalibur (talk) 21:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that all of the redirects like that go to caregiver, but that the first paragraph of that article mention the vocabulary issue prominently and have a link to the other page. Franzeska (talk) 18:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Support two separate articles. To be honest, I've never heard the term, "carer'" before today. I've been a caregiver myself for a parent and this is the generally used and understood term in the United States both by the general public and health care professionals. I am puzzled by the adjective, "voluntary," since most caregivers assume the role by default. What real choice does a loving spouse have but to assume the role? Also what choice does a loving adult child have when his or her siblings either refuse or are unable to assume the role of caregiver for their parent or parents? clariosophic (talk) 12:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I know I said I wasn't going to do it but I can't help it. Oppose two articles at carer and caregiver — a clear content fork. Support two articles at caregiver (or voluntary caregiver) and carers movement/carers' movement. — AjaxSmack 03:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Support two articles, "Caregiver" and "Carers' Movement". I am, however, slightly anxious that we'll not find the appropriate references. Is there a decent history of the carers movement that would justify the split? If not, it could be perceived as original research. Nicholas (talk) 11:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose carer and caregiver as two articles, because they do not need two articles, and because of Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English.

From their own definitions, caregivers are "...people who take care of other adults, often parents or spouses, or children with special medical needs." (NLM.NIH.gov) A carer is "...someone, who, without payment, provides help and support to a partner, child, relative, friend or neighbour, who could not manage without their help." (Carers.org) or "...someone who looks after a friend, relative or neighbour who needs support because of their sickness, age or disability." (Direct.gov.uk). Carers and caregivers are one and the same thing.

The article was begun in 2005 and used U.S. English ([7]). There is therefore no reason to shift the language and the title to a non-U.S. one. This is clear from Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English. Carer/carers should redirect here, not the other way around. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 20:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for what has been a very useful and thoughtful debate. I think that there appears now to be a fair degree of consensus: the elements of the article dealing with carer's rights and legislation will now be split off into (sorry but I still can't bring myself to use let alone pronounce that awful disambigu-thingy word!) a new page Carers rights movement in parallel with the disability pages. I'll have a crack at this fairly shortly unless anyone else fancies getting stuck in first. Excalibur (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Per the above discussion, I'm removing the listing from WP:RM without moving the page. If I'm mistaken in my reading of the consensus here, please let me know. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of the discussion is that we want to move voluntary caregiver to caregiver (which is currently a redirect to this article). In addition, we want to create a new article that covers the carers rights movement. I think the dislike of the word 'voluntary' has been pretty universal and uncontroversial. Franzeska (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I'm sorry. I saw the part about the new carer's rights article, but I missed about removing the word "voluntary" from the title. I'll take care of that now. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.