Talk:Chappaquiddick incident

Unreferenced POV Claim

Did Kennedy ever notify police or did then Chief Arena send for Kennedy? Kennedy never reported the accident to authorities until he was summoned by Arena, nor did Gargan, Markham, or any of the boiler room girls. From the official transcript of the inquest of Monday, January 5, 1970 before Judge James A Boyle, Kennedy is questioned on page #62. THE COURT. I think the answer had been no. Q. [by Mr. Dinis] And now may I ask you, Mr. Kennedy, was there any reason why no additional assistance was asked for? A. Was there any reason? Q. Yes, was there any particular reason why you did not call the police or fire department? A. Well I intended to report it to the police.

Kennedy never initiated contact with police or fire immediately after the accident or the next morning. Kennedy was found by the Edgartown Police Chief Arena the next morning and questioned.

From Leo Damore's "Senatorial Privilege" paperback July 1989 printing, page 11, "I'm afraid I have some bad news," Arena said, "There's been another tragedy. Your car was in an accident over here. And the young lady is dead". "I know," Kennedy said.

Page 85, "Markham said later, "We hoped Ted was going to report the accident, but we didn't know for sure what he was going to do"

Kennedy never reported the accident before being contacted by the police. It was Chief Arena who sought him out— Preceding unsigned comment added by 18:01, 28 October 2006 (talk • contribs) 24.34.49.160 (UTC)

This isn't going to fly here anymore than it does on the Ted Kennedy article. Sock puppetry, unreliable sources, overly negative claims by an anonymous editor with an axe to grind. Furhter vandalism will result in protection, just as it did on the Ted Kennedy page. /Blaxthos 22:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Unreliable sources? In court Kennedy said that he "intended" to contact the police. Hence he didn't contact them. Instead, he must have first been questioned by the police.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.58.255 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be original research, which is strictly prohibited on Wikipedia. /Blaxthos 23:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Are the court transcripts confidential? The orignal poster said the "official transcript of the inquest of Monday, January 5, 1970 before Judge James A Boyle, Kennedy is questioned on page #62. " If that's true, how does that qualify as original research. A little confused. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.22.220.96 (talk) 10:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

The transcripts don't say what the editor alleges; he's drawing conclusions from what he's alleging the source says (transcript says X, so it must mean Z), which is the epitome of original research. /Blaxthos 18:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, Blaxthos, you are not familiar enough with Wikipedia's Original Research policy which refers "to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material." I assume you are attempting to draw on the second part here, since it IS published. However, drawing from a question posed: "was there any particular reason why you did not call the police or fire department?" and converting this into a non-question is not actually analysis.Kylesandell 04:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

But this is all pointless anyway, since we can use another source, TIME magazine's article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878649-3,00.html) published in 1970. Wikipedia's policy is to "rely on reliable published secondary sources" which this article most certainly is. Kylesandell 04:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

POV Check

This article feels like it has a negative slant, and there seems to be a fair amount of liberty taken with the facts as well. I'm asking for a POV check instead of slapping totallydisputed tag. /Blaxthos 20:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's quite obvious that there's somethin' fishy going on with Ted and the whole "accident" thing. There really is only one way to show this article, and that's through the points of view of the people who accurately investigated this. → JARED ^(t)  02:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. One, your reply necessarily implies a point of view (by quoting "accident" and stating that it is obviously fishy). Two, those investigating the accident are not the only points of view involved -- obviously Kennedy, his lawyer, and ultimately the Court did not agree either. In any situation, there is not only one point of view (and hence the tag exists!). /Blaxthos 02:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I acknowledge that, but you also have to take into the account the credibility of Ted. He was drunk, probably lied (...who wouldn't) and a criminal's POV is usually not taken. Yes the court gave him a minimal sentence (which was suspended!) but that's only because he's a senator. I'm sure if it was just some regular old guy, he'd have been in jail for life, but that's just my opinion. → JARED ^(t)  02:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one, if you have a particular point of view on certain subjects, you should avoid editing them on Wikipedia. You're injecing your analysis (see WP:OR) and it reflects your point of view (see WP:NPOV). We should attempt to create a credible encyclopedia using reliable sources; we do not welcome editors who want to use their personal bias to influence decisions.

To your credit, I appluad your honesty about your point of view. However, there are certainly other interpretations of what happened. The court didn't feel that any criminal activity occured other than leaving the scene of the accident. Also, perhaps his sentence was suspended because it was his first and only offense. My whole point is that the article seems to convey the point of view you're pushing, which is exactly why I am requesting a review. Since you admit your obvious bias your review does not comply with WP:NPOV. /Blaxthos 03:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[The court and authorities were working with the info they had, which Kennedy and his many advisors and attorneys sought to limit / obfuscate, according to numerous sources. It was not Kennedy's first offense. In fact, his license was expired at the time, also (a misdemeanor), but this was 'corrected' by others. LAEsquire 02:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)LAEsquire]

I'll just leave you with the facts that (1) I have three times the edits that you do, so I obviously have a clear sense of policy (not saying you do not). (2) I was just showing my POV, but the truth is, there are more sources which support the opinion which I coincidentally share, which leads me to (3), that I don't recall ever editing this page, so nothing I've said physically reflects what's been put on the page, and if it does, it's because it's probably the best way to put it.

I applaud your decision to request a review, as any knowledgeable Wikipedian would do when there seems to be POV bias. With more experience, you may realize that some topics are intrinsically biased to a certain degree because that is what is generally accepted. A court case doesn't actually make one story better than another, although it can definitely be a good piece of evidence. I would, however, go ahead with the peer review. → JARED ^(t)  20:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Edit counts don't really have much to do with the issue at hand, do they? I'm at a loss as to why you'd even want to look that up, much less use it to try and justify your position. I've been around Wikipedia for longer than you (by a fair margin) -- does that mean anything? Of course not... let's stick to the issues at hand.
2. I'm not pushing any particular point of view; I'm trying to keep it neutral. You answered the request for a POV review by calling the Senator a criminal, insinuating that he was drunk (despite no evidence of such), and that we shouldn't trust the subject at all. What I find ironic is that you want to discredit "Ted" due to him being a "criminal" ("suspended sentence" not withstanding) and then in the same breath you want to ignore the same Court when it decided that there was no other culpable conduct. Having the cake and eating it too, no ?
3. WP:BLP is very clear about POV and sourcing. I would also subject the sources you claim to have to WP:RS.
4. "A court case doesn't actually make one story better than another, although it can definitely be a good piece of evidence. - I have no idea what this means.
5. I make no claim that you've touched the article. My point is simply that if you're going to answer a call for POV check, please don't do so by trying to push your significantly biased point of view. If you can't do so while adhering to WP:NPOV by at least trying to be unbiased, then you shouldn't answer it at all.

IMHO. /Blaxthos 00:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Just so that it doesn't look like I'm ignoring this, I'll respond to say that you should just go ahead and get the darned thing over with. I'll just remind you of WP:IAR. Sometimes, as I said, it may be better to leave a somewhat knowingly biased section in an article because it would be closer to the truth than any other NPOV source. I think that it is inappropriate to talk about our thoughts, though, so this would be a good time to call it quits. I apologize if I offended you at any point of this seemingly bitter conversation. My personal opinions kind of intervened (a little...). → JARED ^(t)  02:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't really get bitter over things (especially wikipedia talk pages), and I apologize if I came across as such. You didn't offend me, and I guess we both exhibit some pretentiousness. However, I don't resort to edit-counting and WP:IAR when I think my viewpoint is the right one. What you've basically saying is that "it's okay to be biased because it's what I believe" -- even though the Courts are at odds with what you espouse as fact. Which do you think is in a better position to say -- people pushing an agenda, or our best efforts at an independant and accurate judiciary? The courts aren't always right, but you shouldn't jump to ignoring all rules (of which you'd have to ignore at least three of the most important) just to justify your point of view. Make some effort at being objective. Be it noted that (1) i'm simply asking for a non-biased evaluation (because I never take my own objectivity for granted); and (2) I respect the fact that you at least acknowledge your bias. No hard feelings. /Blaxthos 02:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"POV Check" question

Please, could you make a specific point about the POV check request. Do you have a specific part of the article that you take issue with? What I have seen so far is you simply saying you "feel it has a negative slant" and then arguing with some people. They might be biased, but the article is not. If you have nothing more specific than that, it seems that the point is moot. I personally see no slant— only facts are presented as such, speculation is referred to as speculation. Also, if anyone is really interested in finding more information there are reliable sources to be had. (Try http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,878649-3,00.html for a start) I would not consider myself to have any more knowledge of the incident than anyone else (I most certainly know less than those of you editing the article), nor am I very interested in it, so I don't see myself adding or editing right now on this article. I just don't like that unfounded "Unreferenced POV Claim". Kylesandell 05:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

That template has been on the article since November. I originally placed the template after a major cleanup effort, just to be sure. I had hoped at the time there was some roving band of POV-checkers (as so many people claim to be) who would follow these templates to the articles upon which they were placed and check them against WP:NPOV. Apparently my understanding of How Things Work was somewhat flawed, however we've had numerous editors stop by and offer their counsel on various matters relating to POV. For the most part, as you have noted, the article seems to be well within WP:NPOV; template removed per your suggestion (and others'). /Blaxthos 09:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Broadcast official statement copyvio

I have removed the 'Broadcast official statement' section from the article page because it appears to be a violation of copyright of the material at [1], which says at the borrom of the page, "Copyright Status: Text, Audio, Image = Restricted, seek permission." -- Donald Albury 14:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Time of day?

At what time of day did the incident alledgedly occur? And where were Kennedy and Kopechne headed for? Was there a respectable and plausible destination given, or were they joyriding? Thanks, Maikel 15:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I have found the relevant information in the article on Mary Jo Kopechne. Maikel 15:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

1115p Kennedy said in a statement: ""On July 18, 1969, at approximately 11:15 PM in Chappaquiddick, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, I was driving my car on Main Street on my way to get the ferry back to Edgartown. I was unfamiliar with the road and turned right onto Dike Road, instead of bearing hard left on Main Street.". Others say it was more like 1245a. - Kennedy's story didn't add up, because he said he was unfamiliar with the road, which he wasn't, and he said he was trying to get somewhere that was in the opposite direction. http://www.ytedk.com/chapter2.htm < Not sure why this site isn't listed as a link or source; it's got more info and docs on the incident than any other site on the web. LAEsquire 02:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)LAEsquire

Proposed wikiproject

I created a proposal for a new wikiproject to deal with political scandals and controversies. The idea would be to try to get a group of people involved in making sure that current and past political scandals were accurately stated and sourced on wikipedia. Anybody that is interested can sign up at [2]. Remember 14:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Drunk

Should it not be noted that many think Kennedy was drunk, thus casuing him to drive off the bridge?--68.192.188.142 05:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Not unless there is more than speculation (which there is not). See our biographies of living persons policy, as well as the need for reliable sources and attribution. /Blaxthos 08:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the speculation that he was drunk be mentioned in the Impact or Significance sections? The implications of the scandal affecting the '72 elections make it seem noteworthy enough to expand on the public (and thus speculatory) perception of the event, not to mention it's historical impact upon Kennedy's career at large.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.211.173 (talk)

Did you take a look at the policies that Blaxthos referred to, above? I have been unable to find one reliable source that says (or even speculates) that he was drunk. We have to be careful with biographies of living persons. Innuendo will not cut it. Sunray 09:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We do not speculate. We are an encyclopedia. /Blaxthos 17:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Reporting that many other people have speculated is certainly not the same as offering an unqualified speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 (talk) 22:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Autopsy

As I read this article, I find myself asking why no autopsy was performed. 75.82.208.152 02:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC) My name failed to appear 75.82.208.152 02:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC) I'll try again 75.82.208.152 02:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC) Oops, my login had timed out. LorenzoB 02:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Why not autopsy was performed? Because there was no evidence that an autopsy was required and, most likely, also because the body was already buried. Autopsies tend to only be performed if the cause of death was unknown or in the case of a homicide. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)