Talk:White Hispanic and Latino Americans

Additions?

I am considering adding more Mexican-american's to the pictures... after all they represent half of all white hispanics. What do you all think? Romo, de la hoya, ted williams, jeff garcia, just to name a few.

Do it. Replace some Cuban Americans, or else we'll have one big gallery on our hands. But look beyond just Mexican Americans, too. SamEV 23:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There is too much focus on Cuban Americans in this article. It would be nice to add more non-Cuban White Hispanics in this page. I already removed two Cubans and added the Spanish-American Michael Lopez-Alegria and the Chilean-American Isabel Allende, and I also added the Argentine-American Julie Gonzalo. Cubans aren't the only White Hispanics in the US. Lehoiberri 22:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

i got some ideas on some other white hispanics beside cuban ones,shakira columbia,ricky martin puerto rican,jessica alba,ernesto che was from argentina i think not cuba , to name a few--Mikmik2953 05:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This article is about Hispanic in the United States who have white ancestory. Shakira is not American, she lives in Colombia. Che Guevara is no way American, he hated America. Ricky Martin can be added because even though he was born in Puerto Rico, He currently lives in Miami, and Puerto Ricans have automatic US citizenship because it is a US territory. Jessica Alba can be considered White Hispanic, but her father is a Mexican-American mestizo, so she might be considered Castizo. Lehoiberri 06:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

sorry did not know it was only united states white hispnics thought it ment all from south north and central.but jessica alba i know her father is part indigenous indian but i did read in an article somewhere that she considers herself white,and me myself would percive her to be--Mikmik2953 07:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Guess too much focus on Cuban Americans meant edit Migdia C. That sems a bit petty to me. Mig 05:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)--Mig 05:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talk • contribs)

Why is it petty? I don't understand why you'd call it that. Unless you know it to have been ill-intentioned (and I don't the person who did it, but here's the diff) you really shouldn't take it personally, Migdia. SamEV (talk) 07:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Jessica Alba?

OK this article is a joke. 76.237.14.47 (talk) 04:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Jessica Alba again

I've seen her added and removed a couple of times. I don't have a strong position for or against, but before she's added back, let me say that I recall reading a quote from hers wherein she says she had some difficulty growing up mixed-race. So I'd be surprised if it turns out that she considers herself white. I think it's obvious that there's not much consensus for keeping her, so let's add someone else, please. SamEV (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think she represents a Castizo which refers to people of a European appearence which she has..although i do understand with the person above, also she's doing a movie called Sisters with Paz Vega and Eliska Amor who are both of Spanish or descent.(Bluesky) 017:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

so that would make her white if you look the part you are the part the majority of her hertiage is european she has some native ameridian from her father but so does johnny depp but he still white jessica alba would not be though of as another race if you took her and dropped her off in spain italy or greece etc,remeber hispanic or latino is not a race anyway so why a big deal.and yes i seen that article to but she was just playing on that sterotype in america that white means you have to be the color of snow to be white,white people skin varies.now put jessica alba next to an ameridian and than put her against lets say penelope cruz than tell me who she more resembles. there is a term for hispanic who look white but thet are really not is that not geting a liitle to subjective dont you think and i beliveve that was a term that was used in colonial latin america aint this 2007 not 1707 which was most likle a racistsystem--Mikmik2953 14:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not whether we think she's white, but whether she does. If she does, she should be included. But it's clear that there's uncertainty about her. SamEV 20:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

i repeat if you look the part you are the part her father a meso it not like hes even 100% ameridan, you do not make up your own race you do not have that option --Mikmik2953 20:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I never said what you think I said. Please read it more carefully. SamEV 21:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Jennifer Alba should not be included in this article, she is an Anglo-Mestiza. Her father is clearly of strong indio or mestizo Mexican heritage and her mother is an Anglo European(non-Spanish) so she can not be classified as a White Hispanic. Her own features also resemble more of a mestizo mixture (lips, nose, dark hair and eyes, tan skin) than those of a white hispanic. I know everyone would love to claim her as one of their own, but come on people, use some common sense KurtJak (talk) 11:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, check the source on her wikipedia article. She states, "I was always [self-conscious] of my puffy lips and darker skin when I was a kid, because I felt like I didn't fit in."CubanOne (talk) 12:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I believe that an individual should only be featured in this article if their heritage can clearly be identified or if they self identify as White Hispanic. Looks can be very deceiving when you're dealing with the issue of race. Take Robert Rodriguez for example (who is featured), he may have lighter skin, but his cousin is actor Danny Trejo who is clearly of indio descent. Rodriguez may be a mestizo who just happens to have features that can be identified as white by some but he may identify as mestizo and not white.CubanOne (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Hispanics in the United States - requested move

Hello everyone. There is at present a discussion going on at Hispanics in the United States, due to the request that the page be moved to Hispanic Americans. Would you like to comment please? Thank you. The Ogre 18:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What about Trini Alvarado?

She is white too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.1.135 (talk) 03:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah. I agree. She is like Alexis Bledel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.54.128 (talk) 06:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

White Mexican Americans

Lehoiberri and everyone, try these names. You can find more at List of Mexican Americans. I took a look at it and these names jumped out at me:

• Lefty Gomez Major League Baseball pitcher. He was white: in fact, he wouldn't have been allowed to play otherwise, at that time. This was before Jackie Robinson's hiring in 1947
• Buck Martinez Baseball commentator and former manager
• Ted Williams Great baseball player. Same situation as Gomez. But wait: I thought he was supposed to be half-Puerto Rican, not half-Mexican?
• Jeff Garcia NFL QB
• Catherine Bach Daisy Duke in Dukes of Hazzard
• Lynda Carter Wonder Woman
• Edward Furlong of Terminator 2 movie
• Joanna Kerns Maggie Seaver of Growing Pains
• Ricardo Montalban of Fantasy Island
• Joan Baez folk singer
• Linda Ronstadt singer
• Ritchie Valens rock pioneer
• Cruz Bustamante California politician
• Bill Richardson Governor of New Mexico
• Ellen Ochoa Astronaut

SamEV (talk) 08:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that some of the people here are half White American and half Mexican American. The Mexican American side of the person is probably mestizo. Some people do not view people who are half White American and half Mestizo are not White Hispanic, take Jessica Alba for an example. In Latin America, we have term for half-White half-Mestizo people, that is Castizo. Castizo is not a word used in the United States. I can tell who is not White Hispanic. Bill Richardson is not White Hispanic because he is quarter white from the USA the rest is mestizo. Ritchie Valens is also Mestizo, and I do believe that Cruz Bustamante is also mestizo. I know that most Chicanos, Mexican Americans who can trace their ancestry to the time when the Southwest United States was part of Mexico, are mainly mestizos. I will try to do research on some of the people, but their should be a consensus in where people who are half-white half-mestizos should be considered as White Hispanics or not. Lehoiberri (talk) 05:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus has a way of evolving from the fact, often. So if you add some pics, some of them can earn acceptance and stay in the article. Start with Ted Williams, an American hero - he fought in WWII, in addition to being one the all-time greatest on the diamond. He was treated as white by US society; why shouldn't we? Same with Gomez. See what I mean? This is the USA, so rules are a bit different: besides, in Latin America people who are not "simon-pure" in terms of whiteness are treated as white, and call themselves so, all the time and throughout history. This is mentioned in the White Latin American article, as you know. Remember that there are, to be exact, a zillion non-Hispanic Whites who acknowledge having Native American ancestry, and they're still considered white. So let's not hold White Hispanics to a higher standard. Also, keep in mind that the whole idea of racial purity is a myth, and always was.[1] SamEV (talk) 06:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Lehoiberri, one thing I read about is that Ritchie Valens' manager - who was a non-Hispanic white - did not realize Ritchie was Mexican when they first met, as Ritchie, who was blue-eyed, looked like an Anglo teenager to him. SamEV (talk) 02:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I still don't believe that we should take it upon ourselves to label someone as "white" or "non-white" because it's impossible to determine an individual's ethnicity solely based on their skin tone. As I said before, I believe that we should only include individuals who self identify as "white hispanic" because looks can be deceiving. Take Oscar De La Hoya for example, someone suggested we add him because he has lighter skin, however, his parents are both mestizo and if you examine his facial features you'll notice that he has very strong indio features as well. I also question whether we should add Anglo-Hispanics to the list because their white heritage primarily from an Anglo (non Hispanic) background and their Hispanic heritage may come from a primarily Mestizo or Indio background. Labeling someone who is half Anglo and mestizo as "White Hispanic" seems as ridiculous as labeling someone who is half European and half African as "White African". Other Anglo-Hispanics may not even identify with their Hispanic heritage at all and simply refer to themselves as "white" (like Ted Williams).

By the way, I do believe that Lefty Gomez belongs on the list, most people actually assumed he was Spanish when he played and he never went out of his way to correct them. Although, it may have been a lot more difficult for him if the public was aware of his Mexican heritage (that's also one of the reasons why Williams never discussed his Mexican heritage).CubanOne (talk) 08:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should be deciding who's white, either. I don't do it - I haven't added a single picture or a single name among those mentioned in the article text - but I don't remove the names and pictures others have posted, either. I'm just providing an opinion on how we might proceed on this matter. In the end, the goal should be to have only names and pictures of people who can be clearly sourced as self-identifying as white; but until then, I think we should tolerate the status quo. As we go forward, we should not be assuming a racial purist's, one-droppist stance; having mestizo ancestry should not be an automatic disqualifier. If it's not for say, Chuck Norris or Johnny Depp, why should it be for any white Hispanic? I'm not suggesting that all those names be included; only that among them there are probably many that will prove acceptable to most editors. By the way, if you agree that Williams was seen as white (which is why he, like Gomez and other Hispanics were allowed to play at all), and he called himself white, then why do you argue against including him? Also, Williams did discuss his ancestry. It's in his 1969 autobiography and he reportedly talked about it with Nomar.[2] He just didn't talk about it a whole lot, nor was it reported much. SamEV (talk) 02:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of adding or removing pictures and names to this article. I was simply offering my opinion as you were. There's a big difference between someone who is one-eighth native american (johnny depp) and someone who's hispanic heritage is primarily of mestizo and indio descent. Hispanics who are only one-eighth indio would also be considered White in most Hispanic communities. You mentioned that Ted Williams and Lefty Gomez were perceived as White by American society, however, there's a difference between the two. Lefty Gomez's parents were both Mexican and he was seen as a White Hispanic (or sometimes mistakenly referred to as "Spanish")while Ted Williams was half Anglo and was seen as an Anglo white. Ted Williams avoided discussing his Mexican background while growing up and during his baseball career, "If I had had my mother's name, there is no doubt I would have run into problems in those days, the prejudices people had in southern California". However, he did acknowledge his Mexican background (albeit reluctantly) in his autobiography as you pointed out. He referred to his mother as "Mexican and French" even though only his great grandparents on his mother's side were of Basque descent (the rest were Mexican). Ted Williams was half Anglo and never referred to himself as Hispanic or Latino and he cut off ties with the Mexican side of his family after his mother's death(although he did pay college tuition for a Mexican American nephew). Most of the people I know who are a mixture of Anglo and Hispanic refer to themselves as "half Irish and half Salvadoran" for example, not "White Hispanic".CubanOne (talk) 04:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, no, I didn't think you accused me of anything. I volunteered that info to clarify my stance. Ok. I'm reluctant to go too much into 'blood quantum' issues. But don't you think that 3/4 non-Hispanic white and 1/4 Native American people (castizos) are very often seen as white in the US, in our times? I believe so. The other issue you raise is that Williams didn't much publicly acknowledge his Hispanic ancestry, so he shouldn't be included. I think he should be, is spite of his choice ... We'll just have to disagree on that. A good case can be made either way, so I don't necessarily think you're "wrong". SamEV (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

SamEV, I hope you don't get the wrong idea of me, I am not looking at people skin color to claim their are White Hispanic or not. I was trying to look it some these people can trace their ancestry back to Europe or the Middle East. I also know many people who call themselves White Hispanic may have Indigenous or African blood. I knew a Salvadoran who claim to be pure Spanish white, I did not believe him because El Salvador was more than 90% Mestizo, and he had a dark skinned sister. I did not know Ritchie Valens had blue eyes, I saw the movie about him and he was played by a dark-skinned, dark-eyed Filipino. I am trying not to use skin color as a factor for White Hispanics because Middle Easterner, Southern Spaniards, and Southern Italians are dark-skinned and considered White. Lehoiberri (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Ritchie was played by Lou Diamond Philips, who is (I looked it up, b/c I couldn't remember all) of Hawaiian, Japanese, Spanish, Scotch Irish and Cherokee Indian, and of course, Filipino.[3] I think he was great in the movie.

But it's all right. I do think that race, especially in Latin America, is mostly based on skin color. SamEV (talk) 23:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Isabel Allende and others...

These and related articles are an embarrassment to wikipedia for a series of reasons. First, many of the people named in the article may not identify as white per se, but rather as Hispanic or more specifically Mexican-American or Cuban-American etc... Secondly, what is the operative definition of "white" employed in this article? Thirdly, most if not all of the people mentioned have varied and diverse ancestries, a fact which is perhaps concealed by their more or less European appearance; Isabel Allende's father, for example, was mestizo both in ancestry and in appearance, she moreover has frequently defined herself as "mestiza," specifically mentioning her mapuche ancestry. Mario Vargas Llosa also is more or less European in appearance, yet, he likewise has defined himself as mestizo, or in his more crudely put words, as the son of a cholo, and has commented that he probably has African as well as Native American ancestry. Carlos Fuentes has also acknowledged his Native American ancestry, mentioning in one of his works that he had a Yaqui grandmother. The truth is that most of the people cited in the article as examples of White Hispanics have, in fact, varied and diverse ancestries, and can be described, at most, as "faux-Spaniards," in the sense of having a romanticized or novelized identity placed upon them by amateur sociologists and encyclopedists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.137.71.180 (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no reason to dispute what you say about Allende, since I've never heard or read from her what race she considers herself. Nor do I contest that she, and some of the others, may have been added (none by me) based on skin color. But you seem to believe in the one drop rule. Having "pure" white ancestry cannot be a requirement, because no one could meet it if that were the case, as I already said above. You'd have to question everyone's right to call himself/herself "white," whether Hispanic or not. It's really that simple.

The problem of finding US Hispanic people who self-identify as white will continue because, although it is known that half of US Hispanics (an amazing 23 million) identify as white, it seems that few do so in public; other than Greg Giraldo, I can't think of another right now. Perhaps US Hispanics are used to being told they are exclusively a people of color, and few seem to dare to say in public what they write on questionaires. Public figures may be even more reluctant. Also, with the racist and Euro-centric crimes and excesses of the past so universally rejected now, it's more acceptable to express pride in non-white ancestry than white, isn't it? SamEV (talk) 00:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Isabel Allende is not Mestiza, she comes from a well-known Chilean family of Basque descent, the Allende Family. The Allendes, like majority of wealthy, prominent families in Latin America, are White. The upper class of Latin America is really racist, and they always want to stay purely White, and when these people get married, they only get married with other Whites. I don't know where this unknown person got its facts about Isabel Allende, but she is not mestiza.Lehoiberri (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

"I am a mestiza. I am the product of the Spaniards and the Mapuche Indians, so I can understand both currents, both traditions, and I feel that I can write about it, because I feel it inside." Those are Isabel Allende's own words and this is the source[[4]]

I never knew she view her self as mestiza, but I am confused. Her father was the cousin of Salvador Allende, and Salvador Allende is white yet her father is mestizo. I am also confused how could someone from a rich prominent family can get married with an indigenous woman if upper class society of Chile, and Latin America in general, looked down in interracial marriage. I am not saying that you are wrong, but there could be a possibility Isabel Allende is, in a lack of better terms, a believer in "white guilt". There are many historical figures in Latin American history who claim they were one with the indigenous and the mestizos, but in fact they were white. A perfect example is Che Guevara, Che was a White Argentinian man with Basque, Spanish, and Irish descent, but he always claimed that he was mestizo even though his family tree debunked his claim. He constantly blamed Latin American Whites for all the problems of Latin America, yet he was white himself. Lehoiberri (talk) 21:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe you may be right, Lehoiberri. Isabel Allende is descendent of elite Chilean families, it's not probable that she has Mapuche forefathers, she is a descendent of kings Charlemagne, Hugh Capet, Ferdinand I of León, William I of England and Afonso I of Portugal, for example[5]. Of course that does not mean she may not have some Ameridian blood (still... according to US racial rules, in what quantum? Enough not to make her white?). Which one of these was Ameridian, does anyone konw (the question marks do not mean they are not konwn - it means I couldn't find them out; some of the others go much further back several centuries)?

16. José Gregorio Allende Garcés

8. José Ramón Allende Padín (Chile, 1845)

17. Salomé Padín Ruiz

4. Tomás Allende Castro

18. ?

9. Eugenia Castro del Fierro (Chile, 1860)

19. ?

2. Tomás Allende y Pesse de Villevert (Chile 1875)

20. Joseph Michel Pesse

10. Armand François Pesse de Villevert (France c. 1820)

21. Jeanne Puyo

5. Laura Pesse Guerra

22. José Segundo Guerra

11. Nieves Guerra (Chile, 1831)

23. Florentina Guerra

1. Isabel Allende

24.  ?

12. ?

25. ?

6. Agustín Llona Cuevas

26. ?

13. ?

27. ?

3. Francisca Llona Barros

28. Juan Agustín Barros Morán

14. Luis Barros Méndez

29. Carmen Méndez Urrejola

7. Isabel Barros Moreira

30. Agustín Moreira Merino

15. Teresa Moreira Urrejola

31. Rita Urrejola Unzuela

The Ogre (talk) 01:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Mind you, when Isabel Allende says she is a mestiza, she may be speaking in a cultural sense, and not in a genealogical sense. Here (MSN Latino) she say: "Yo soy mestiza. Yo vengo de la cultura española y de la cultura indígena y el choque de ambas es muy interesante. Es un choque de amor, de odio, de lujuria, de poder, de gran violencia; y de ahí nacemos los latinoamericanos". Which translates as: "I am a mestiza. I came from the Spanish culture and the Indigenous culture and the clash between them is very interesting. It is a clash of love, hatred, power, of enormous violence; and from that we the Latin Americans were born." The Ogre (talk) 01:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Good research, Ogre. It's quite possible she is indeed talking about culture. Also, Lehoiberri, her Amerindian ancestry - if true, that is - might have come from marriage by a wealthy Allende (or whatever surname) with a mestizo/a, not an Indian. That mestizo/a might have been similarly wealthy, perhaps. In her book, The House of the Spirits, which she said was based on her own ancestors, there's such a marriage. SamEV (talk) 02:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm the one who started this thread and I let me say I was afraid people would try to interpret her words metaphorically, however so there's no doubt let me quote from another interview she gave: "Y sienten un sentimiento de culpa por la conquista, es algo delicado. Y yo les dije que estos pómulos no son de Ucrania, son mapuche, yo soy mestiza, así es que es fácil escribir sobre lo que resultó de la conquista."[6]

Which translates to: "And they feel guilty about the conquest, it's a sensitive topic. And I tell them these cheek bones are not from the Ukraine, they're mapuche, I'm mestiza, so it's easy [for me] to write about what came out of the conquest."

So basically she's saying: I look the way I do because I have mapuche ancestors, I have high cheek bones because I have amerindian traits, not Slavic or German.Nord1 (talk) 02:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Although Vargas Llosa self-identifies with Europe (he once said "Even if I didn't have Spanish citizen I would still consider myself European) he still doesn't deny that genetically he's mestizo. Here's a link to a picture of his youngest son Gonzalo, whose Amerindian traits are more pronounced than his father's[7] and here [8].

Just one thing, though: neither Vargas Llosa nor Carlos Fuentes are mentioned or shown in this article. SamEV (talk) 04:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's correct you don't mention Vargas Llosa or Carlos Fuentes, I mentioned them because many people consider them white but if asked they would describe themselves as mestizos. Also the case of Mario Vargas Llosa is somewhat similar to that of Isabel Allende, in the sense that both the Allende and Llosa names are storied and prestigious. But these facts shouldn't cause us to automatically assume that we know the full genetic history of these families or, more importantly, that we shouldn't make an effort to research what these people have themselves said about their own ethnicity or race, after all, shouldn't they have the last word on the matter? Also, while we're on the subject, Anthony Quinn is mestizo as well, see here[9]Nord1 (talk) 04:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Quinn would likely be classifiable as castizo, actually, I suppose Lehoiberri would tell you, based on the info given in that book. SamEV (talk) 05:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Census Data for U.S States/Cities

There is data for the White Hispanic and all other ethnic groups in the U.S states and in some cities ..i found out that san diego city is 11% White Hispanic..for example.. here's an example of in 2006 California which has roughly 50% White of the Hispanic pop. shall we add it to article?..their useful stats i think.

2000 Census figures ,main states with white hispanics and California: 2006 estimates - Ethnic groups/Hispanic etc..

Ethnicity Distribution

U.S State distribution

White Hispanic - 2000 Census -
State	Population	% of State Total	% of Hispanic pop
California	4,353,269	??%
Texas	3,866,192	??%
Florida	2,006,520	??%
New York	1,132,708	??%
Arizona	599,353	??%
New Jersey	547,496	??%
New Mexico	400,758	??%
Colorado	357,125	??%

Ethnicity Distribution

City distribution

White Hispanic - 2000 Census -
City	Population	% of City Total
Los Angeles	634,848	??%
San Diego	132,315	??%

81.159.137.28 (talk) 13:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That looks good, but I think going down to the city level would be overkill. I'd rather add more states, but I think ten is enough to give readers an idea. SamEV (talk) 23:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

J-lo

Most people think she is mestizo,..but she clearly isnt..possibly Castizo, if anything..since her father is not and her mother is predominanly european etc...here's David lopez recently on YouTube —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.146.155 (talk) 17:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Mr Lopez is very white. J-Lo herself actually frequents the tanning booth, because her skin is pale. SamEV (talk) 02:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

yes she is very pale she is not mestizo, castizo yes but j lo definetly passes as white in my book you ever see her when she was a fly girl she is pale as heck people mistake tan people as not being white sometimes rember fair skin peole can change there skin color--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny... I always though she wasn't! From were I came from everybody would look at her and, if asked about her ethnicity, would say something like "she looks like a Mexican mixture between european and native american" (probably just saying white and indian...). Of course this is our bias! Just goes to show you - racial definitions and categories vary immensly from place to place! Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

When I first saw her, it was on a short-lived TV show circa 1994 (?), and I did notice that here was an unusually light-skinned 'Mexican' (she played a Mexican American, if I'm not mistaken), compared to most (obviously not all) US Latinos in real life and Hollywood. For years I'd seen her as an In Living Color Fly Girl, but I didn't remember her face or name, b/c in fact, I couldn't tell one FG from the next. SamEV (talk) 23:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Country of Orgin Chart

I find it odd that the percentage of Spaniards in lower than the percentage of Cubans. Last time I remember Spaniards were White, so shouldn't that percentage be 100%. That is my opinion. I believe that chart needs fact checking. Lehoiberri (talk) 17:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The answer is quite simple: not all those who indicate they're "Spanish" actually are. "Spanish" is a term many US Hispanics who are in fact not Spanish Americans use as their ethnicity (or even as their "race", showing a complete lack of understanding of the concept), especially in the East Coast. Many select non-white categories, hence the 76% for "Spanish". SamEV (talk) 18:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the entry for "Spanish". BTW, all US Hispanics used to be categorized under "Spanish origin", which almost certainly contributed to this problem. SamEV (talk) 19:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

yes, in the 1980 census its all catagorized as spanish origin..should be spanish speaking.anyway...i think its worth adding the spanish-american population as mainly white ..since now i think the US totals up all of the people with only spanish origin to make up a total white population..for example im sure martin sheen it counted as half Irish ans half spanish.otherwise whats the point of asking to name your 2 main ancestries. I think the US census on who is of Hispanic origin, when i mean Hispanic i mean Spanish(spain)...ive heard quite a few afro cubans on TV call the white cubans 'Hispanic' as if they dont associate themselves as being of Hispanic descent because they are afro-cuban...which in fact is actually the correct meaning at the end of the day....the US census is starting to get more clarity i think...but its the people that need to answer properly also.Britannic1 (talk) 16:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think more clarity is coming in the 2010 census, indeed. SamEV (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you not think its worth adding anything of the spanish:2 million etc/Spaniard:299 thousand. stats.??..Britannic1 (talk) 19:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)....some has to be right..

Yes, on the article itself, not on that table, as I wrote in my last edit summary. But as you can see, it's not easy to get figures that can be relied upon as being truly about people of direct Spanish descent. SamEV (talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

So let me get this right, there are people who call themselves Spanish yet they are not technically Spanish. Now that's odd. Lehoiberri (talk) 21:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Members of all US Hispanic groups do it. It's most common among the younger people (20-somethings and teenagers), who apparently find the word "Hispanic" too difficult, I suppose. But even non-Hispanics do it. I don't watch Jay Leno much, but over the years I've heard him say to some guests who've said they're Latino 'oh, I didn't know you're Spanish'. I heard the same from Rosy O'Donnel, too. On Saturday Night Live Adam Sandler too, in a song he did in one of his skits; etc, etc. It's very common in New York, where all of them are from. SamEV (talk) 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Isabel Allende and Cote De Pablo

Although I would personally not contest her "whiteness", at least insofar as appearance or most recent and predominant ancestry, it has to be said that Isabel Allende herself identifies as a mestiza. "Se define como mestiza, hija de la confluencia india y española, y extranjera."[10] "Yo soy mestiza - se enorgullece -, producto de las dos corrientes, y tengo la capacidad de entender al español que fue y conquistó y al indio que fue conquistado" [11] So I don't know if it's just to put her as a White Hispanic.

Meanwhile, Cote De Pablo actually is a mestiza. Al-Andalus (talk) 11:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

We were already debated about Allende, please look on top. Especially when she comes from a prominent White Chilean family. About Cote de Pablo, I don't know if she is mestiza, but she did start her career in Spanish language television, an industry that, to some, is racist toward non-white people. Maybe she is a light skinned mestiza, I don't know? Lehoiberri (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I just scrolled up and saw the detail of the debate. Two important things I would like to point out to those that were forwarding the position that in her case it is still appropriate to have her depicted as an example of the subject matter of an article entitled White Hispanics.

First and foremost, if she or any other person, does NOT identify as White or whatever else (race, religion, or other thing) and their personal identity is verified (ie. public statements) then she should NOT be put as a representative on an article of that very thing. It's just common sense and decency. I can tell you that as an Australian, the great majority of the Aboriginal population in this country (Australia) is mixed. In fact, of the Aboriginal people I have personally physically met, they all looked mixed or were mixed but looked white. Yet, every one of those people identify as Aboriginal. If a person's personal identity is that of an Aboriginal person, and given that belonging in the Aboriginal community and that Aboriginal identity is based on Aboriginal descent (be it unmixed or mixed), then by that very fact of Aboriginality that person IS an ABORIGINAL! He or she should not be represented as anything else. Perhaps the exception would be in a context of factuality, where one would say "such and such is a mixed-race person of Aboriginal descent and identity". In the present case, of course, it is not Aboriginal identity nor its logical counterpart (Amerindian identity). Instead, it is mestizo (mixed-race) identity. The premise is nonetheless the same.

Secondly, many of you are barking up the wrong tree when trying to pin point the birth-certificate verified amerindian or mestizo ancestor in her recent or even distant family tree. It is a fact of history that the first generation of mestizas (ie. a female of mixed Spanish and Amerindian descent) born in Latin America 5 centuries ago were not only the first mothers of today's mestizo population, but they were also the genesis the local-born colonial white population of all Latin America (except for Argentina and Uruguay). The colonial white population constitutes the founding population and principal element from which today's white Latin Americans descend. Only Argentina and Uruguay received European immigration of nuclear families that overwhelmed the colonial whites. But even there, the non-colonial majority soon mixed with the whites descended of colonial whites, thus, over 50% of their modern whites have Amerindian female genetic markers anyway.

The historical parting of the colonial white and mestizo population of Latin America lies in the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the first mestizos. Most of the first generation of mestizos of both genders were illegitimate. Of the few who were recognized by their fathers, all were raised as Spaniards, but it was only the females that went on to marry Spaniards. Few female Spaniards sailed over from Spain, so legitimate mestizas were available mostly to Spaniards only. The few female Spaniards available were available ONLY to Spaniards. Legitimate mestizos competed with Spaniards for legitimate mestizas, but got mostly illegitimate mestizas (bring them up the social ladder with them). From the unions of legitimate mestizas and Spaniards were born what would later (after the white colonial population had consolidated) be called castizos. These would then marry other Spaniards and thus at this point, the genesis of the white colonial population of Latin America was finally consolidated, nobles and all.

Those mestizos and mestizas that were illegitimate from the very beginning had in that time multiplied amongst themselves. Some male mestizos (from lack of illegitimate mestizas being taken by legitimate mestizos) had taken Amerindian females, and either joined that Amerindian community (and thus taken Spanish genes into Amerindian communities) or bringing the Amerindian female out of hers (bringing more Amerindian genes into his community).

Isabel Allende, being descended mostly from colonial white Chileans, would have Amerindian descent by the simple fact of how the colonial white populations of all Latin America was established, Chile included. Al-Andalus (talk) 10:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right that Isabel Allende does not view herself as white, yet in the same time Allende's father's cousin, Salvador Allende, was white. Since she doesn't view herself as white, like you said, she should be removed. But who would take her spot? Before we started to make a big deal about the pictures section, that section was overrepresented by Cubans (as you can read in the first discussion in this page). We need someone who is Hispanic-American, is white (European or Middle Eastern), and not Cuban. How about Selma Hayek, she is Mexican of Spanish and Lebanese descent, and she lives here (but I don't know she has US citizenship though). Does anyone has ideas? Lehoiberri (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)