Talk:Chord progression

see short discussion at Talk:Harmonic progression

Is a progression a technique?

Mein freind und I enter a discusion he say technique is not progression i say the contrary wich is right???

--->ALSO A certain chord can be present in several different scales

example

      C E G bB  appears in the scales of   
               CDEFGA Bb ( C mixolydian )
               FGA Bb CDE ( F major ) 
               GA Bb CDE F#  ( G minor )    
               C Eb E F F# G Bb ( C blue scale ) 
                                       etc .... 

Therefore A chord is common to several tonalities

What you listed are scales. They consist of tones, not chords! And of course a certain tone can be present in several different scales, after all there are only 12 tones.

---> Especially modern jazz artists use these "characteristics " of chords by using chords progressions to create a constantly ongoing modulation ....

Theorists/ teachers (of this particular mode of playing ) include

            Nathan Davis 
            Hal Singer 

---

> Performers of these styles even fabricated so called " synthetic " scales

on several ( simple three chord ) progressions ( and a different one on "bridges" in anatole -pieces / ballad and tin -pan -alley material )

Sonny Rollins is an outstanding " player " of these linear approaches to motivistic and rapid scale- changing modes of improvisation

Misc

In the table, there under major IV, one of the progressions starts with a VI, I think this is a mistake, all the others start with the same as the title of the row but I don't feel as if I know enough to change it!

Under "Rewrite Rules," the link to "well-formed" doesn't go anywhere useful. I'm not sure what exactly it should link to. Maybe something should be added to the disambiguation page? Foxmulder 18:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Same goes for "cyclic." Also changed the VI to a IV; I assume that was a typo. Foxmulder 18:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Does "(assuming 12ET)" mean "assuming 12 equal tones?" This seems very unclear, why would it be written like that? BunDonkey 02:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite rules

The rewrite rules are quite unclear in the examples.

What does this mean:

1        2        3 4  5          6       7 8   9         10      11 12
bVi, bIII/bVII, IV/I/I//bVI, bIII/bVII, IV/I/I//bVI, bIII/bVII, IV/I/I//

I'm not sure what the slashes represent? 203.219.137.66 02:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I added an explination. How's it look now? Hyacinth 07:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks really good. I'm a beginner and it makes sense to me now. Initially I guessed the '/' were representing 'play chord again' or 'or play this chord' Thanks! 203.213.7.132 21:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

General

• "In music of the common practice period, generally only certain chord progressions are used. Many of the other unused progressions are not traditionally considered tonal. It should be noted, however, that in most styles of music, chord progressions are resultant from voice leading patterns; thus the preceding observations are merely generalizations."

I removed the italicized portion above as it is a reply and thus belongs on the talk page and the preceding material already reads "generally". Hyacinth 10:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Retrogression

• A chord progression in its most basic definition, stands as an antonym for retrogression.

I removed the above as its unexplained and there is no article on retrogression. Hyacinth 06:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Chords often relate to each other in some phenomenological, tonally-coherent way—though this may not always be the case, especially when discussing more complex tonal music after 1840.

I don't know what "phenomenological, tonally-coherent way" means. Hyacinth 07:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Confusion

I find this page confusing. Granted though, I am a novice in music theory.

I understand the notation used for the most part, but I am confused by the notation "ii6°".

The "ii" should indicate a supertonic root with a note a minor third above this. This makes sense. However, the "6" indicates a note a sixth above the root, while the "°" should indicate a diminished quality.

Does this indicate:

1. a diminished 5th *and* a 6th
2. only a diminished 5th
3. only a 6th (if this is figured bass notation)

In semitones, these possibilities would be:

1. 3-3-3
2. 3-3
3. 3-6

In the key of A minor (harmonic), the notes for each possibility would be

1. B-D-F-G#
2. B-D-F
3. B-D-G#.

If I were to name these, I would call these

1. ii°7
2. ii°
3. ii6

So, what is the correct interpretation? --70.226.193.242 11:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The notation ii refers to the pitch classes in the chord, in this case, B-D-F. The ° refers to the chord's diminished quality. The 6 refers to its inversion (see Inversion (music)), which means that this ii chord contains a 6th above the bass instead of a 5th, which is the case in first inversion (second inversion includes also a 4th instead of a 3rd, so is called 6/4). So, the first inversion of B-D-F is D-F-B. - Rainwarrior 17:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. From Chord (music): Roman numerals indicate the root of the chord as a scale degree within a particular key .... From Inversion (music): In this system, inversions are indicated by a digit or digits written below a given bass note. My confusion was due to thinking that the root had to be the same as the bass in this context in order to work as a figured bass. It appears that this notation could be called figured Roman http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chord_symbol&oldid=43624551. The portion of the Chord symbol article discussing this was lost when that article was merged into Chord (music). Obviously, your interpretation is completely correct, and makes a lot of sense. However, it still raises some questions for me:

• What does the footnote in the table refer to? It seems to be talking about this, but the places where the asterisks are have no figured notation.
• Could not all chords be inverted as seen fit? It would make sense that this was done more commonly for certain chords, however the table as it is now seems to imply that there were only certain valid transitions, including particular inversions.
• Why was all mention of figured Roman removed? Strictly, Roman notation cannot be used with figured bass as it is described, since Roman describes the root and not the bass.

It seems to me that there is room for improvement in these articles. Does it make sense to discuss chords in the table without inversion, and then have an addendum discussing common inversions, and other additional details? Also, does it make sense to attempt to organize the discussion of figured notation somehow? I am not quite sure how to best do this, as figured notation is discussed in (at least) Chord (music), Inversion (music), and Figured bass --70.226.207.179 04:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In answer to your questions:

• Umm, it looks like the footnote appears to be trying to explain how to build the particular chord. Do you take notes from the harmonic or melodic minor, and if melodic, which version do you use? In common practice music, there is a particular version that is used much more often than the others for each of these possibilities, so that's why the footnote is there, I suppose.
• No, the inversions aren't arbitrary. The table itself doesn't explain why those particular inversions are used, however. The reason comes from the practice of counterpoint. There are certain ways to write chord progressions smoothly, and if you take a study of counterpoint in classical music you'll find that in most progressions one particular form is extremely dominant. (For instance, try to find a 6/4 chord that's not part of I 6/4 - V - I.)
• I expect mention of "figured Roman" was removed because it is not a very widely used term. I've never heard anyone use it before. I've actually never heard a name for the use of roman numerals with figures (other than the ambiguous "chord symbols", or banal "roman numeral analysis"), but often the figures themselves are refered to as the "inversion" (e.g. "the 6/4 inversion").

As for improvement of the article, I would say that this article is pretty bad. I've only come to it recently, and haven't taken any time to work on it yet, but offhand I'd say that we should leave the inversions in the table, but it is very worth discussing the meaning of those inversions (which would be a good place to explain the inversion notation briefly as well). Also, the "rewrite rules" section is badly notated, and I'm not certain it belongs in this article at all (is it referred to anywhere but in that one book?). - Rainwarrior 05:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the table, I'm not sure the inversions used are the correct ones (but I still stand by my general statements before about there usually being one form for a progression, even if the table doesn't show the correct ones at the moment). I'll have to check over this later. - Rainwarrior 05:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

More confusion

I find it confusing, because it contains none of the information I am conversant with. Chord progressions are a series of whole numbers -- nothing else. They are not complicated with numeric names for chords. Rather, those progressions are 'given' names according to who discovered them or whatever culture uses them, but they are not complicated with the names we've given to the simplest ratios like three to two or four to three.

Let me give you an example. A series of four perfect fifths begins with the number eight. Why eight, because that's the lowest number that you can divide three times by two, so the whole series is 8,12,18,27. THAT is a chord progression: Nothing but a series of numbers. Give it a name, like one of the names given to a chord on the guitar if it plays big in someone's piece.

Let me show you how simple it can be to prove numeric names to be nonsense.

A perfect fifth is 2/3 (usually it's called the reciprocal, but think about it).

A perfect third is 4/3 (sometimes this is called a fourth, but that's new to me).

A perfect eleventh is 8/3

See the series? They're exactly an octave apart. The reference pitch is three, which is not practical, until I explain fundamental frequency to you.

But no relation is between the names for those ratios.

Number the names, not the other way around, then this article might become instructive. I also see the roman numerals in here, and that just extends my confusion. I grew up with Arabic numerals. Those are what i calculate with. So, perhaps I would be repeating myself if I asked you to define IV as (what?) 8:6:3:2 (a perfect third, a perfect eleventh, a three to one, a double octave, and an octave)? I don't even know how many notes are in this IV chord.

I don't hav a convenient tool for this analysis, but write a chordhere, and I can probably figure it out. If you're not conversant with constructed languages, then you can fax me. BrewJay 21:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

It's usual in Wikipedia to post below the other comments in the section. Thus I moved yours here to avoid confusion.

Methinks you have done too much physics (or possibly guitar playing) and not enough music theory. I'm by no means a theory expert (I still don't know what the flat symbols on this page represent), but I can see a lot of problems with your argument.

Your statement that "8,12,18,27" is a chord progression is amusing, and shows that you have missed the entire point of the page. Let me carefully explain. Start by imagining a series of 8 boxes (the white piano keys make an admirable set to imagine, if you can play the piano). Now, imagine that these boxes represent the notes in the C major scale. Sometimes there will be an interval of a whole tone between two boxes (eg. C and D). Other times it will be a semitone (eg. E and F).

Now, having imagined that, imagine that there is a roman numeral written under each box, ie. I II III IV V VI VII. You'll notice that I stopped at VII. Please grey out the eighth box in your mind.

Now, suddenly imagine that the boxes are empty. The way it works is, if you fill in those boxes with any major scale (just put the notes in in order), the numerals still refer to the same boxes. So "I" always refers to whichever major key you're in (C, in our original case), and VI always refers to whichever minor key you're in (if you put C in the I box, then the VI box will contain an A). There's no VIII, because that is exactly the same as I. It doesn't matter where on the keyboard/guitar you're playing it, or which inversion you're using (or, in guitar terms, what the base note is), it's still a I chord. Hopefully you're starting to see why your references to "8,12,18,27" are irrelevant. It's like claiming that GH is a hexadecimal number. I presume you're using them to refer to frequency multipliers.

Now hopefully you can understand a little of what the roman numerals refer to. But there's more! Imagine that you tried to build a major or minor chord based on each of the notes in the little white boxes. So on the C, you would build a C major chord. But on the D, you would have to build a D minor, because you have an F, but no F#.

Now let me address your final point -- that of Roman numerals. Using roman numerals for chord progressions has been done from the time of the Baroque era until now, and the theory books I looked at in the 1990s continued to use them. As well as being accepted practice, there's a reason for it, and that is that music uses Arabic numerals for other purposes, and using roman numerals makes it easier to distinguish between chord progressions and eg. fingering indications.

I can also understand your confusion in claiming that a perfect fifth is 2/3. The problem is that you're using the wrong reference point. A perfect fifth is indeed 2/3 of the way between a note and the note an octave up. But the people who refer to 3/2 are using pitch multiplication. So if we start at eg. 440Hz (the A below middle C), then multiply that by 3/2, we get 660, which is the next E up. But if you multiply by 2/3, you get 293, which is the D below, or a 4th down.

If you're interested in further reading, I'd recommend

• Equal temperament#Comparison to just intonation (to help you understand that, you need to know that 12-TET means 12-tone eqaul-tempered scale).
• Chord_(music)#Scale degree (and the rest of the page, but especially the scale degree section)

If there's anything that's still unclear, feel free to address it below my comments.

-- TimNelson 01:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be bent on trying to immerse me in the difference between logarithmic and scalar mathematics. You do addition and subtraction. I do multiplication. You suit the third grade. I suit fifth graders who might know the sieve of erastosthenes, or the numbers that are rarely on their multiplication tables (because you strike them out the second time they occur). My rebuttal is an offer. You propose a triad. I'll reduce it to a simple fraction. Maybe I can do it with four-part harmony, too, but more than likely I'll need context. Maybe I'll even figure out how to write it into score that isn't mechanical. Here's why: progression is a synonym for series, and I hav a fourth part to go with three other parts that I really want to calculate (if I ever get the three parts working nicely by ear). BrewJay 04:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm trying to figure out a way to cast some light on the disjunction between our mental maps of the situation. Maybe I'd better check that we're using the basic assumptions. My assumptions are:

• A chord is a set of notes played at the same time but different pitches. The notes in the chord may be part of the same harmonic series, or not.
• A chord progression is a series of _chords_ played one after another, at different times.

Chords to Series by example.

I agree that any differences between a "series" and a "progression" are irrelevant here -- both are essentially an ordered set. But I have a lurking suspicion that you're referring to a set of either notes or intervals represented along the axis of pitch/frequency/whatever, whereas I (and the Chord Progression page) are referring to a set of chords along the axis of time. But I could be wrong here -- if so, let me know.

I'm having serious trouble understanding how the letters relate to musical ratios,

but we are talking about the same thing: How to describe a polyphonic trend. BrewJay 16:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe you when you say you can reduce chords to numbers, but until I understand what the numbers mean, I guess I can't see the point. But I'll suggest two triads, and see what you get from them -- that may help to cast some light on the situation.

• Triad X: C E G
• Triad Y: D F# A

You start "A series of four perfect fifths...". This may be the point where our thinking departs. A perfect fifth is not a chord, but an interval.

-- TimNelson 06:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I prefer "ratio" to "interval". "Interval" might be a more physically correct description of equal temperament, but harmony deals with whole numbered ratios. If it's more than two notes in parallel, then it's a chord. As I recall, you didn't understand how 3/2 could be the same as 2/3. In series, this is understandable. In parallel though,

you might be pressing C and G, simultaneously. So, again, I see a series in the dominant ratios, but I see no series in their names:

2/3 Perfect fifth. 4/3 Perfect fourth. 8/3 Perfect eleventh.

Incidentally, you finished your first comment with "If you're not conversant with constructed languages, then you can fax me." I'm not sure what relevance this has to the conversation (I have a basic familiarity with conlangs, but can't see how it relates).

-- TimNelson 06:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

musixtex is a constructed language. I now realize that conlang normally represents natural languages.

A chord is an interval (synonymous with ratio in music) with more than two notes in it. In Triad X, above, C and G are at the ratio 3/2, and according to whatever temperament MicroSoft used for QBasic in 1992, E is the mean. To check this I audited it. My default C is at 1050Hertz. My default G is at 1575 Hz, and E is at 1312.5.

What lies between three and two is, in relative terms, a mean: 2.5. 1575 is to 3 (G) as 1312.5 is to 2.5 (E) as 1050 is to 2 (C), but the harmonic series is composed entirely of whole-numbered ratios, so the trick is a minimal increase of the ratio. Doubling them all eliminates that pesky fraction.

In practical terms, I could assume a basis (fundamental) frequency of 525 Hz and program with six, five, and four as notes if my work had only three notes in it.

C E G is equivalent to 4:5:6 (It doesn't reduce or simplify. Dividing four by five by six is meaningless in this context). So, with MusixTeX I mean to put yellow numbers on top of blue notes.

It should be possible to find a series of notes that represents that same three-numbered ratio, but is a transposition from one key to another. Perhaps this is what is meant by minor and major. A minor shift in chord would not change the ratios.

For triad Y, I'm assuming that you are rising in pitch. It is also 4:5:6.

The sheer number of notes in a full-length composition might force some of these notes upward to maintain the relation, much as considering a work with both chords in it would, but in practice, I see a typical limit to this upward drift, and I speculate that it's less than a hundred.

Maintaining the relation seems to be the sensible way to go. Then, later in the work, I will compare transpositions -- same chord in a different key, like this: 6 12 36 5 10 30 4 8 24

It can be done in a serial work, too. A basis frequency could be provided for an alternative method of rendition. It also forms a basis for analysis in combinatorics or non-linear dynamics. I've heard that some music has been condensed into nifty little loops that predict most of the notes. Mathematicians that didn't think they could write music could go: "Oh, so that's how this stuff works. I see this pattern."

Sometimes it seems like the obfuscation starts with letters and continues with names for ratios that bear no obvious relation to those ratios. OTOH, many musicians might travel down dead ends if they even wrote their music. BrewJay 16:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Harmonic/Melodic Minor Scales

What about #vii° in harmonic scales? Would someone add or authorize me to add the chords in the other minor modes?

Natural minor:	i	ii°	III	iv	v	VI	VII
Harmonic:	i	ii°	III+	iv	V	VI	#vii°
Melodic:	i	ii	III+	IV	V	#vi°	#vii°

Hangfromthefloor 01:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia authorises you. WP:BOLD -- TimNelson 03:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

More about understandable musicology

Tables are good, I think. I'd like some of those chords spelt out on a staff, but I don't know that I wouldn't be asking for a scale commonly known to music students. I hav no *good* works in parallel harmony of my own to illustrate how yellow Arabic numbers printed on blue quarter notes are easier to understand, so I will (Eventually. I hav many pots on my stove.) apply what I know to someone else's work. It seems like this would be drowned! If I were a music teacher, I'd be doing a few examples, handing this out as assignment along with tables of just intonation (perhaps even different works to each student for the sake of security) and hiding the fully-specified answers.

I see that more art is in this than some people might want, and that no table lists all of the ratios one might want to use. I touched up an old tune with notes that are on the harmonic series, but not on western scales and instruments. The harmony doesn't work, anymore, so I want to giv the whole thing an arrangment that isn't written -- not an exercise with a short time limit. I should start from scratch and resist tweaking the piece, but fun is in tweaking the piece. It's not how much you write. It's how much you chuck.

BrewJay 15:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources for common progressions

It is unclear to me where the chart of common transitions came from, does anybody know? I would like to find that source. I did not see it in the links, I'm in the process of hunting down the books now.

→The chart is extremely similar to the progression chart in Ottman's Elementary Harmony. It actually looks like a direct copy of the chart and the text wasn't credited.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 15:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the unreferenced information from the section. Hyacinth (talk) 04:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Why? While it may not have been linked to, that information was invaluable to me while it was up here. I verified through writing and listening that those chord progressions are what they said they were. 70.122.48.172 (talk)

Explanation of notation

The table on this page says "See the article chord (music) and chord symbol for an explanation of the notation used in this table." Obviously this was written before the two articles were merged together.

Somewhere along the way it seems that the description of this notation was lost, because I can't find any explanation of the difference between uppercase and lowercase Roman numerals (e.g., III and iii). Could someone explain what these mean, either here or in the Chord (music) page? -- Sakurambo 22:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Uppercase would be major, lowercase would be minor. Hyacinth 10:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes. I should have read the Chord article a bit more closely. Thanks :-) -- Sakurambo 21:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any explanation of what the flats are, though. -- TimNelson 03:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

An explaination of the flat signs can be seen on the "Borrowed Chord" article,there should be a link to it on the chord article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinylmesh (talk • contribs) 21:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Reference to blues-modal harmony should be a direct quote.

Dear Wikipedia,

I welcome, on this page, the reference to my original work on the analysis of 20th century harmony as noted in www.harmony.org.uk

However, the section (as indicated below) is a direct quote from my copyright work (apart from a short incorrect insertion) and should be indicated as such. I am happy for you to quote this section but I would appreciate it if you would please amend this to indicate that it is a quote. i.e as follows:

According to Tom Sutcliffe (2006: www.harmony.org.uk )

“… during the 1960's some pop groups started to experiment with modal chord progressions as an alternative way of harmonising blues melodies. . . . This created a new system of harmony that has influenced subsequent popular music.”

“The use of modal harmonies to harmonise the blues came about because of the similarity of the blues scale to modal scales . . . by experimentation with the possible uses of major chords on the guitar. This phenomenon thus probably derives from the characteristics of the guitar and the way it is used in popular music. This is also linked to the rise in the use of power chords.”

If you want to mention modal chords correctly, and make the point clearer, then it would be a good idea to add something like:

Sutcliffe’s hypothesis is that major chord combinations such as: I , bIII , IV, V and bVII cannot be explained in pure modal terms as, in this combination, these don’t exist in the usual modes. They have to be explained as a new harmonic system combining elements from the blues and elements from modality.

Also, under “external links” please note: “it's origins” should be corrected to “its origins”

Regards,

Tom Sutcliffe.

August 2007

Many thanks for this. The passage was a) useful, and b) inserted by an anonymous user who has no Wikipedia account. I've turned the section we were still using into a quote, with some credits. Many thanks for your understanding in this, and your willingness for us to quote you.

-- TimNelson 10:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)