Talk:Ashina tribe

Japanese clans

Should they be linked from the Japanese clans page?

No it's a Turkic dynasty as mentioned in the Article--Ugur Basak 11:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ashina is a Turkish clan. But the interesting point is, this prooves a connection of Hsiungnu to Turks. Tengriteg

Given there is little to no evidence of the Ashina clan at all, no historical record of how the clan passed down through history and precisely nil that there was anyone associated with the Xiongnu who was in any way whatsoever in vaguely associated with the Turks or the Ashina, I do not see how. In fact given that this entire article looks a-historic Turkish myth-making, why does it even exist? Lao Wai 14:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the New Book of Tang, the Ashina were related to the northern tribes of the Xiongnu. I also read a translation. If I can find some time I will give Chinese references. 193.140.91.129 06:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed phrase

"These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history. However the composite of such narrates are broad and the sequel could have been ended one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it. "

These sentences make no sense to me. I would be happy to help put them in comprehensible English if someone could tell me what they are trying to say. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

These stories as stated, had been pieced together to form a narrates of their history in a chronologically manner, so what's wrong with that. Please try harder for the comprehensible. Or otherwise I will put them in myself. Eiorgiomugini 18:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are uncertain, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it."

This parts is totally corrected, now I had no idea why did you removed the last part of it. If anythings, removing a sourced infomations from secondary matarial needed to be addressed here. Not simply undid my edits to prevert any revert wars. If it is not comprehensible English, probably you should added a tag over for a clean-up than removing my source. Eiorgiomugini 06:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Your parts "These stories were sometimes pieced together to form a chronologically narrative of early Ashina history. However the ultimate origin and chronological order of such narratives are unknown." simply do not stated what my source trying to said, first of all, they're not unknown to scholars. Eiorgiomugini 06:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Xue

What is "Xue" in the "references" section? Could you be more specific? --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Its a citation or foot note. Read WP:REF for specific. Eiorgiomugini 18:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You should explain who is Xue - is it a book or a writer? If it is a book, when was it published? By whom? where? You can't persuade me that three enigmatic letters is a sufficient reference per se. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Its all written under the references section, please read also WP:HARV. To tell you the truth, I might simply choose to ignore or reply such comments. Eiorgiomugini 18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is what I called trolling, obviously there's a reference section for book, location and publisher[1], but Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) simpy do not bother to look over it and is rather frustrating to be repeatedly questioned by the distorted user here over again and again. I think the improvement of for this article is a pointless waste of time because of people like you Ghirlandajo. Eiorgiomugini 06:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ashina

I'm not a native speaker of English, and my language skills are limited. Perhaps it's the reason why I can't comprehend the phrase "These stories were at times pieced together to form a chronologically narrates of history, however the probability was large and such sequel could have been one way or the other, as most of the stories happens to be written in the same era without a date attached to it". I tried to comment it out, but another editor started to revert war and added another sentence that I can't parse. I seek your opinion, mediation, and/or advice how to proceed in this case. --Ghirla^-трёп- 17:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. This latest edit makes me conclude that the only way to proceed is to file WP:RFC concerning Eiorgiomugini's behaviour. The guy is terribly possessive in that he restores his every edit, no matter how you try to process it. This attitude effectively blocks the articles on the Gokturks and Xiongnu from any reasonable editing or improvement. I will probably pen a RfC tonight. Let other wikipedians judge what measures should be taken in this case. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's probably wise. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which articles are we talking about? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem currently revolves around Ashina and Tarim mummies. But it is much wider than that. I think the guy reverted almost every edit I made to Gokturk-related articles today. Since I plan to write more stuff about that part of the world, I don't see how it may be practicable if this pattern of behaviour continues. His current revert-warring does nothing to encourage me (or anyone else) to keep editing those articles. P.S. Check Eiorgiomugini's block log. --Ghirla^-трёп- 18:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts. You may also want to check the ongoing discussion on Dbachmann's talk page. It concerns the best way to spell the word "khagan". --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Briangotts"

Now User:Ghirlandajo, my behaviour is totally reasonable, if you felt frustrating, you could file a report whatever you wanted it, but overall at least I provided my source, unlike you that simply made an edit without a sources at the first point, so instead saying bads about me why don't you backoff on the insulting me and do something else, considering your block logare no better than anyone else here either. Eiorgiomugini 06:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not removed the dispute resolution of we're discussing, if anythings discussion should have been moved here for more appropriated approach for both of us especially, that is what matters for you. Also about Gokturk-related articles, I don't even think those could be accepted as "revert", but anyone like you are welcome and might like to give it a try for that issue as well. Let's all filed this petty issue to a report for a abuse reverter like you, I don't care, I don't even think that I was at wrong in the first places. Eiorgiomugini 07:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone think the Asina/Ashina could be related to the Asii/Asiani who are called "the lords of the Tochari," thus explaining their Indo-European name and possibly giving them Tocharian ancestry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.84.36 (talk) 20:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Briangotts's complain

You would be well advised not to address your fellow editors with this type of profanity. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:Style and other guidelines. Refs and notes are properly two different sections. Please also review WP:OWN and accept that you do not have any property interest over Ashina, Gokturks, or any other articles. Your behavior is going to result in you being blocked (yet again). Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eiorgiomugini"

I don't think you had the right to claim I had WP:OWN over Gokturk and Ashina, anyone could check out Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs)'s edits, and would knows that most of his revert/edition and trolling did not addressed under the edit summary, which meant he simply removed informations whatever he wants it, a terribly possessive in my opinion. I agreed with the style, however since Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) are the one who removed the References section[2], so I thought it might be better for you to rant on him, this had totally no concerns about my edits, I just happens to make a combined sections for compromise after his removal. About profanity, I don't recall I did mentioned your name on the edit summary nor the fellow editors here either, so that's just another self-soliloquizing from me.

And please refrain on yelling at others such as this one [3], reading the guideline of WP:OWN might help. You claimed you are willing to help in the comprehensible English for the article if I described on the talk, yet you made no reply ever since your first edit here [4], so I asked another guy to involve with the article somthings that you had failed to do. Eiorgiomugini 02:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Most powerful royal house and WP:OR

I think we needs a specific quote about what Togan said on the Ashina, such WP:POV claim needed to be addressed properly (including the reasoning) as well. Eiorgiomugini 02:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Guess what, I had removed one of the sources from the article. This quote below was clearly utter rubbish:

They were the most powerful royal house of the steppes before the rise of the Borjigin.[1]

Tagan was talking about the three main dynasties (Ashina, Chinggisid and Ottoman) in the history of Turks under page 16, nothing implies that he stated about the Ashina being the most powerful clan prior to Borjigin, there don't even have a word of Borjigin mentioned by him to begin with. WP:OR may be the grounds for deletion, and before doing so please think twice about what you are doing, at least thinks for the others instead for your sake of selfness. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Please stop distorting the facts. I don't know whether it's your command of the language or bad will that makes you pretend to see so much difference between "powerful" and "main". You may replace one epithet with another, if you think they are not synonyms. In fact, I fail to understand how a dynasty may be described as "main" if it does not wield actual power. Your gratuitous accusations of "cheating" are not to be tolerated. We are not supposed to quote sources verbatim, as that would constitute breach of copyright. Your point that the Genghisids are not a branch of the Borjigin is very peculiar and needs to be sourced. Since it was me who wrote our articles about Genghisids and some Scythian royals too, I know what I'm talking about. --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

However, in any case, a problem with the assertion is that it ignores the Yoglokars. --Nlu (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

While the fact that you're the one who are making the WP:OR, so you're not in the position to talk back on me. If you had claimed me to be distorting the facts, you should had provided a proof to back up. This had got nothing to do with synonyms, the source doesn't even mentioned something between "powerful" and "main". Replacing one epithet to another? Like what, it makes me wonder did you even read the source you provided earlier. Your accusations is not making any sense for your information, and yes I considered you're cheating with your source with all these nonesense that actually started up by you. "I know what I'm talking about" talk to others, but not me, I don't care what articles you had wrote about, as you're unable to attribute your additions to a sources is considered to be a WP:OR. Eiorgiomugini 07:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that actually wonder me is why do you even bother to add this "most powerful" statement on the first places. Since everyone likes to be part of something, I hope you do aware that all claims like this needed to be sourced as it simply brought doubtness to readers. Eiorgiomugini 07:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I had updated the additions from the article as it had violated against the WP:OR:

Sergei Klyashtorny, a Soviet Turkologist who was responsible for the coverage of the Gokturks in the Great Soviet Encyclopaedia, derives the name of the Ashina from the Iranian term for "deep blue" (this epithet was applied by the Persians to the Black Sea). This is consistent with the prevalent interpretation of the ethnonym "Göktürks" as "blue Turks", "heavenly Turks".

If Findley did said that, he would have mentioned under his sources, this article is currently in the dispute status, anymore nonsense without a source to back up would be removed. Eiorgiomugini 02:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for comments

Further information: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ashina 2

Now, I had asked this guy named Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs) earlier up for a mediation, but he refused even though our disputes carried on. Is there other way could be done about this? I need several opinions from you guys. Eiorgiomugini 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ask for a third opinion? Or try a requests for comment on the article(s) in question? Moreschi ^Talk 14:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Its been requested by this user on me, and its full of false accusations and so on. Is there any other suggestions? I really needs to get this mediation to work on with this user, it would be a great thanks if you you guys could asked him agreed to the mediation. Eiorgiomugini 14:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I told you that I'm not interested in Ashina any more. I'm concerned about your systematic removal of references from Suyab now. You are an experienced editor and probably know the difference between this board and Village Pump. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Any helps would be great if any of you guys could moved this guy to come over for a mediation, or otherwise I believe our dispute would still carried on. To Ghirlandajo, leaving aside Suyab, I believe there's more disputes over others articles in future, if you continued with your huge cut-and-paste reverting. Eiorgiomugini 14:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I meant request comment on the article(s), not the people involved. An article RfC as oppposed to a user conduct one. Moreschi ^Talk 14:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Its been requested before earlier, and I don't think it work pretty well, the disputes continued after that in several articles. Eiorgiomugini 14:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

moved here from WP:AN/I, listed on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. dab (𒁳) 14:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A mistake about color identification

From the article: The Ashina probably comes from one of the Iranian languages of central Asia and means "blue", kok in Turkic, the color identified with the east, so that Gokturk, another name for the Turk empire, meant the "Turks of the East".

In old turkish the color identified with the East is Yellow. The name of the Yellow Sea comes from Turkish. Blue is the color that identifies holyness and royalty as it is the color of the SkyGod. So, Gokturk does not mean "Turks of the East", it means "Royal Turks". I have to check my books for reference.

DNA Project

I hope I am not alone in seeing that the "Ashina Ancestry DNA" project is highly speculative. Aside from ignoring that the Ashina originally come from Xingjiang, it ignores genetic studies done on Xiongnu mummies and the Tarim Basin mummies, as well as ignores that the Ashina, much like the Saka, were not originally Xiongnu and adopted their culture post conquest/absorbtion. As a historian I find this project to be disconcerting in much the same way that the Davidic Dynasty project has no basis in historical fact.