Talk:NeXTSTEP

Slashdot

This slashdot article linked here today. That explains the sudden influx of anonymous vandals on November 12, but it does not excuse them. Vandalism seems to follow Slashdot referrals like clockwork; it's really starting to get old. --Ardonik.talk()^* 06:47, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Why NeXT didn't succeed

Might be worth adding a paragraph explaining why NeXT never became immensely successful in the marketplace. As I heard it (this needs to be confirmed), they marketed their system purely towards educational institutions, rather than commercial ones. This was their mistake, and by the time they realized it, their technology was getting out of date or something. 66.92.165.123 17:59, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The trouble is - quoting you: 'as I heard it'. 'As I heard it' does not qualify as historical research. At best it's speculation anyway - but falling back on 'as I heard it' - rather forget the whole thing. What you CAN do is offer citations from pundits as to their opinions - keep it factual at all times. Finally: by the time of the merger NeXT were in fact floating fairly well with profits in the hundreds of millions per year. Even thinking this is an NS issue is - well 'stupid'. It has to do with the entire industry, the PC standard, so many other things - not just the anal retentive behaviour of Steven Paul Jobs.

I don't know that anyone here is omniscient enough to know the real reason; what we can do is to quote the theories put forth by technology analysts. I note that NeXT has some observations buried in the narrative, if not a concise summary of the various theories. Stan 06:14, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)::Exactly!

Exactly!

I've heard that they only marketed towards educational institutions because of the results of a lawsuit that limited them to the workstation market.

Again: that's an 'I heard'. It does not qualify.

Name casing

The article is NEXTSTEP, the main text uses NeXTSTEP and the text notes it should be NeXTstep. Soooo... which is it? If it really is NeXTstep, I would suggest we change all of them to match. Maury 14:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I thought you would know that the casing isn't really all that consistent from the beginning? The problem is early NeXT docs used "NeXTstep", the operating system itself used "NEXTSTEP", but the format that everybody seems to "like" to use is NeXTSTEP. Dysprosia 22:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And I presumed people contributing to this article would know the REAL meaning of each form? The most prevalent is NeXTSTEP - this follows their $100 K logo of course. NEXTSTEP appeared later but what I know only these two forms were ever used. And yes, as things stand, this important article is a mess in that regard (and in many others too it need not be pointed out).

Well, even if NeXT itself was not consistent with their own name, Wikipedia should be. --Bletch 01:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'Was' matches 'their'??!?? Oh and for the record: they were always consistent. If you haven't studied their corporate history properly and don't know why they changed case and when it's not their fault.

In all their press releases they write NEXTSTEP. See also the archived discussion below. --Sharcho 15:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Horse radish. Look at the link, Einstein! '/AboutNeXT/'. This is too rich. Someone delving into the subject for five minutes comes and says 'in ALL their press releases'. Oh yeah.

--- Just my two-cents: It seems the case differences of the name "NeXTStep" (Ed:1) occurred over time as the versions of the NeXT OS were changing. Given the version numbers were changing while they were bantering the case of the letters in the OS's name, and case sensitivity was an issue (to management) at the time, wouldn't this mean that various versions had different names in a case-sensitive sense?

More nonsense. Study the corporate history? Why do you think they paid Rand $100,000 for 'NeXT'??!??

((Ed:1) "NeXTStep" is a CamelCase version they never used by the way--I just combined "NeXT" and "Step" for the purposes of this entry.)

Yes and that was bad and completely arbitrary and wrong of you.

I agree that Wikipedia should be name-consistent (as I'm a rabid-lover of sensible-and-simply-coherence and regular-consistency), so I propose an idea to all-reading. (Take it or leave it, you're all meaningful and this is just an idea for-convention).

Where do these people (not) learn to write?

(a) The article should have the most up to date name of the OS, which is "NEXTSTEP"

No. It is 'NeXTSTEP'.

(b) If referring to a all versions of the OS en-masse, call the aggregate "Nextstep"

No. This is wrong. The only aggregate you may speak of is 'OpenStep' which is an API standard. NeXT's implementation of OpenStep is called OPENSTEP. The case thing only occurs with OpenStep - not NeXTSTEP. Jobs paid Paul Rand $100,000 for a logo with 'NeXT' - NOT 'NEXT'. That says it all. If they right before their segue to OPENSTEP did a fast dance with 'NEXTSTEP' - that changes nothing.

(c) If referring to a specific version of the OS, use the name for the OS at the time ("NextStep", "NeXTstep", "NeXTSTEP", or "NEXTSTEP").

Yes of course.

I gotta thank Steve Jobs & folks for the case fun! I'm smiling and giggling a little at the whole phenomena. I just love computer naming conventions! Oh, the creativity!!

You're making it into something way more than it was.

--Ed 04:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC) ---

Not sure I agree with the usage of "Nextstep" - this particular casing was never used by NeXT, so essentially, you've just made it up! I think we should go with whatever was the most common form used in official NeXT documentation. Letdorf 09:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC).

'Not sure I agree with the usage of "Nextstep" - this particular casing was never used by NeXT' - exactly. It was not. The trouble is we have wannabe historians here who aren't willing to do the research. 'so essentially, you've just made it up' - quite right again! 'I think we should go with whatever was the most common form used in official NeXT documentation.' - That's not arbitrary. You are FORCED to do that - if you wish this website to have any cred at all. And guess what the most prevalent form at NeXT was?

Kernel type

I'll copy this message here (paraphrased). Could someone provide some concrete evidence for the claim that Mach is POE-ized (that is, has the servers in the kernel)? It's not that I don't believe that Mach in NeXTSTEP is not a microkernel, I'd just like to see something written down. I do have NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP, so if someone could provide me with some sort of way of verifying that the Mach kernel is POE-ized, that would be useful. Thanks Dysprosia 07:45, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If you have NeXTStep/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody, run 'strings' on the kernel (/mach_kernel) or look at it in a hex editor and you wil find references to things like filesystems, networking, and Unix system calls, which would make it a hybrid kernel. Also, if you run 'nm' on the kernel, you will find symbols for Unix system calls. 207.153.26.108 09:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

window maker

the Next gui is alive, now its name is [Window maker]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 10:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

NEXTSTEP → NeXTSTEP – Despite the inconsistent naming, a cursory search of the wiki, as well as the article in question seem to indicate that NeXTSTEP is the predominately used capitalization on the site. While no standard seems to exist on what the right capitalization is, I suggest NeXTSTEP be affirmed as Wikipedia's choice on the basis of precedence.

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as less ambiguaous, but it's still ambiguous (wasn't there a TV show?) so maybe NeXT operating system would be better. Ewlyahoocom 11:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

NeXT technically produced two operating systems, the other being OPENSTEP. Dysprosia 12:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Not unless you consider NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP as being two versions of the same operating system, as OpenStep seems to do: "they released an OpenStep compliant version of their flagship operating system NeXTSTEP (...) and rebranded it OPENSTEP". Qwertyus 01:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

They clearly have different names. "NeXT operating system" doesn't describe either. Dysprosia 06:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support any consistent capitalisation. I like "NEXTSTEP," but "NeXTSTEP" or "NeXtsTEp" or whatever is fine so long as we pick one and stick to it. NEXTSTEP the OS is the primary meaning of the word, if there is a TV show or anything else that has a Wikipedia article it can be linked to in standard ways (Template:otheruses1 etc). NicM 11:57, 8 May 2006 (UTC).
• Strong Oppose NEXTSTEP's logos are clearly all-caps Logos, which, yes, constrasts with their capitalization of NeXT, the company name. --Davidstrauss 09:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose If NEXTSTEP was the final name, we should use that. Other articles should use the capitalization appropriate for the time they are describing. Qwertyus 09:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

NEXTSTEP uses NEXTSTEP. Perhaps we need to make the capitalization consistent, not the page name. Dysprosia 08:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

That sounds awfully confusing. The operating system went through at least 4 different name changes, and I don't believe that the system internals actually referred to itself with any care to capitalization. NeXT marketing was also rather inconsistent with their capitalization. -- Inanup 07:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the operating system's login page says "NEXTSTEP", which is rather indicative. Dysprosia 08:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a copy of NeXTSTEP handy, but I do recall seeing in The NeXT Book by Bruce Webster, published when the NeXT cube was first released, and the login pane screenshot had no indication of the OS name, just a giant NeXT logo. Are we just going by the OS' last iteration in choosing the naming convention? My thinking is that it's better to call it NeXTSTEP because it seems to encompass the camel case variants that the OS had prior. I realize most stuff on the web shows NEXTSTEP, but that's probably because that was the version that had the most Internet presence due to timing. -- Inanup 23:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

When people change their names, we use their new name, not their old name. NEXTSTEP was NEXTSTEP at its last iteration, so we should use NEXTSTEP. Dysprosia 23:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if that's the position, then I think that NeXTSTEP (or any other variants) should be a redirect to OPENSTEP, since the OS just changed names and conformed to the OpenStep API developed by NeXT. -- Inanup 01:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

You make it sound like the jump from NeXTSTEP to OPENSTEP is a trivial one -- it isn't -- even though the operating systems may look the same, architecturally there are large differences. It makes sense to keep the two distinct since we don't need a discussion about NeXTSTEP when we are discussing the OpenStep API in the same breath since they have nothing to do with each other. The OpenStep article does not just talk about the implementation, OPENSTEP, but discusses the use of the API as well. Dysprosia 01:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but couldn't we expand each: the API and the OS, to independent articles. I realize I'm deviating, but just a thought. -- Inanup 04:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

We could, but that still may not be appropriate -- for example, compare Mac OS pre OS X and OS X, there are (if I remember correctly) seperate articles on each. What would be a good idea perhaps is to have a "timeline" type article, discussing both OSes briefly, and then linking to each article on each OS as a "main article". Dysprosia 04:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Really? I thought we used the name that most people expect to find, accounting for things like ambiguity, and that what someone is "named" or chooses to call themselves is only a part of that calculation. Or maybe we should use the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page? How does "NeXTSTEP III, 17th Baronet NEXTSTEP" grab you? Ewlyahoocom 23:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, really. We use the name that something is called, and provide redirects as appropriate to mop up any ambiguity to previous naming. Dysprosia 00:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess one learns something new everyday. Hey, when you get a chance, could you move Marshall Applewhite to Do? Thanks. Ewlyahoocom 00:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Ignoring the fact that we are not talking about Marshall Applewhite, and that Applewhite has nothing to do with NEXTSTEP at all, I don't know enough about Applewhite to know whether the suggestion that "Do" is a nickname as the Do article suggests or whether Applewhite was widely known as such to warrant a page move -- but seeing as you appear to be knowledgeable about naming matters, why don't you be bold and do that yourself? Dysprosia 00:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggested addition of specific web browser shortcuts/features

The end of this article states

The first web browser, WorldWideWeb, was developed on the NeXTSTEP platform. Some features and keyboard shortcuts now commonly found in web browsers can be traced to originally being native features of NeXTSTEP, which other web browsers for other operating systems later reimplemented as features of the browser itself.

As soon as I read that, I wondered what features those might be? Ctrl-D for making bookmarks, perhaps? (I'm just speculating because I've always wondered.) Anyways, if anyone has read about this somewhere or remembers using the NeXTSTEP browser and is aware of some specifics, I think it'd be really nice to read about them. Itsameanick 09:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC).

Who developed it?

What are the names of the people involved? - Samsara (talk • contribs) 19:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

From the look of the image on the right, Lee Boynton, Jean-Marie Hullot, Bertrand Serlet, and Keith Ohlfs; I know for a fact that Avie Tevanian was involved as well (he was also working at NeXT). Dysprosia 01:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

NeXT bought for how much? And when?

The article shows that "On February 4, 1997 Apple Computer acquired NeXT for $427 million", but on Steve Jobs article it says that In "1996, Apple bought NeXT for $402 million"... I guess at least one of them is wrong. 193.136.128.14 13:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Notes

What's up with the 'Notes' section? It's got all the Wikipedia guidelines printed. Can we delete this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.165.204.55 (talk • contribs) 06:48, Jul 7, 2006 (UTC)

Notes are for footnotes cited in the article. – Mipadi 13:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Unclear

Beneath the table in "Versions", which goes up to the 4.0 beta, it says "Versions up to 4.2 were published, the last version 4.2 after purchase of NeXT by Apple". What does this mean? OPENSTEP? If so, be explicit. I know very little about this subject, and can't work it out. 86.132.137.5 (talk) 01:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)