Talk:Juan Perón

Juan Peron Talk Archive/1

Placed the POV tag

The previous talk page was rather lengthy, so I took the liberty of archiving it. I don't know if I did a very good job with the archiving. If someone else can do a better job, please do.

That aside, I placed a POV tag at the top of this page. I placed it there because while it is true that Juan Peron allowed Nazi criminals into Argentina, it is also true that he himself was not anti-Semitic, did not molest the Jewish community but allowed it to flourish, and that one of his allies in Peronism was José Ber Gelbard, a Jewish man. And Peronism itself contained no anti-Semitism. There were no concentration camps in Argentina.

When told without nuance, the recounting of Juan Peron's allowance of Nazi criminals into the country can paint an unfair portrait of him. As previous editors have mentioned, Germany has deep roots in Argentina that predate Juan Peron and also post-date Juan Peron. Also, it was not only Juan Peron who granted political asylum to Nazi refugees. As is mentioned in the article for ratlines, Nazi criminals made their way into many countries, perhaps the United States and Canada. (It should also be noted that there was an American Nazi Party in the United States and that in the beginning the United States government had also supported Hitler and Mussolini. And apparently there is evidence that Prescott Bush, grandfather of the current president of the United States, collaborated with the Nazis as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush#Nazi_collaboration .) Also, while it is true that Juan Peron had sided with the Axis powers, it is also true that when Argentina did enter the war, they declared war against Germany.

When presented without nuance and historical context, the fact that Juan Peron allowed Nazi criminals into the country can make it appear that he himself agreed with what happened in the Holocaust and he himself was an anti-Semite. And then this is used as leverage in the anti-Peronist argument that Peron himself was a monster. But the nuanced truth is that while Juan Peron did allow Nazis into the country and had sided with the Axis, he himself was not anti-Semitic and did not slaughter Jewish people. Juan Peron's Argentina established diplomatic relations with Israel in 1948.

If this is to truly be a neutral article, then it must contains both sides of the story. Until then, this is a POV article giving an inaccurate and unfair portrait of Juan Peron. My suggestion is that a section called "Juan Peron and the Jewish population of Argentina" be created to balance out the section about the ratlines.

Thank you.

Argentine lad (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I have written the following section for this article. If this article or any of its editors have hopes of retaining Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, then it is only right that this side of the story be shared and this section remain. These are verifiable third-party, reputable and notable sources:

==Juan Perón and the Jewish community of Argentina==

Further information: History of the Jews in Argentina

Prior to his assent to power in Argentina, the Jewish population in Argentina was the largest Jewish population in Latin America. After becoming president of Argentina, Juan Perón sought out the Jewish community for participation in his government, and one of his advisors was a Jewish man from Poland named José Ber Gelbard. Because Peronism contains no anti-Semitic or other racial bias, there were no concentration camps in Juan Perón's Argentina. The Jewish Virtual Library writes that while Juan Perón had sympathized with the Axis powers, "Perón also expressed sympathy for Jewish rights and established diplomatic relations with Israel in 1949. Since then, more than 45,000 Jews have immigrated to Israel from Argentina." In the book Inside Argentina from Peron to Menem author Laurence Levine, former president of the US-Argentine Chamber of Commerce, writes: "although anti-Semitism existed in Argentina, Perón's own views and his political associations were not anti-Semitic.... And while Juan Perón's Argentina allowed many Nazi criminals to take refuge in Argentina, Juan Perón's Argentina also accepted more Jewish immigrants than any other country in Latin America, which in part accounts for the fact that Argentina to this day has a population of over 200,000 Jewish citizens, the largest in Latin America and one of the largest in the world.

Argentine lad (talk) 22:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this section of the article I have a couple of comments and few edits. First,Argentine lad did quite a job in finding quotes and sourcing this section. Now for the comments:

In General. Unless I missed it, the article before the edit didn't accuse Peron of being an antisemite and from the historians I've read I don't recall such accusation, so I don't get the point of writing a section trying to refute something that it doesn't seem to be an issue. Actually brings the reader to the question that he might have been accused of being an antisemite if such a section exists. I would like to know other editors opinion on this. In light of all the work the editor went through to add it, I will not start a whole edit war on the whole section. But IMHO the whole section is unnecessary. It will be like adding another section on Peron and the Italians, Peron and the Irish, etc.

In particular. 1. Highlighting opinions of Page, describing Peron as a "pacifist", is highly POV. It is Page opinion on Peron and not a fact. We can start quoting authors left and right on the subject without bring any light on the issue. I propose deleting that quote. 2. "Perón sought out the Jewish community for participation in his government", the point that Gelbard was a close confidant doesn't mean that he sought out the whole community. More evidence on this is needed to include that sentence. 3. "Because Peronism, the political philosophy Juan Perón developed, contains no anti-Semitic or other racial bias, there were no concentration camps in Perón's Argentina" Of course there were no concentration camps in Argentina. I don't understand why to include that. 4. Time Magazine writes "in practice the Perón regime resembled hardly at all the defeated European fascist dictatorships." The sourced article actually argues Peron's closer associations with the fascist. Wronk link? 5. "Juan Perón allowed Nazi criminals into the country in hopes of acquiring advanced German technology developed during the war" Which technology was Eichman an expert in?. That theory doesn't hold. 6. Eva's photo belongs in Eva's wiki not here.

In summary my opinion is that the whole section should be deleted. But for now, I will just make these changes. Bakersville (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have replaced the paragraphs in their entirety save for the picture of Eva Peron (despite the fact that it is perhaps not that outrageous to think that the man's wife and closest political partner would be shown on his article). You had no right to remove what you removed. And you have no right to say that the works of Joseph Page and Tomas Eloy Martinez [1] do not deserve to be on this page. Martinez is director of Latin American studies at Rutger's University. Page's biography of Juan Peron [2] is a major work and a former best seller.

The reason it is necessary to have a section like this on Juan Peron's page is because in the English speaking world people have a misperception of him as being a Nazi, and this is enhanced by there being an entire section about him allowing Nazis into Argentina. The argument could very easily be made that this is a minor aspect of his career and legacy and deserves perhaps a sentence or two in his biography, not an entire section. And I notice that the Spanish language section has absolutely NO reference to him allowing Nazis into the country. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Domingo_Per%C3%B3n So, it becomes apparent that this is an aspect of his story with a cultural focus. In the English speaking world it seems to be a big deal that he allowed Nazis into the country. In Latin America, in the Spanish speaking world, it is such a non-issue that it isn't even mentioned in his biography.

So, I ask, why is this section necessary about allowing Nazis into Argentina? If you believe that section is necessary, then why is it not necessary to have another section that puts the whole situation into a larger context, explaining that German culture is deep in Argentina and pre-dates Juan Peron?

But forgive me for thinking that it was the goal of a Wikipedia article on Juan Peron to be an article about Juan Peron. Argentine lad (talk) 09:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The entire quote from Laurence Levine is:

"The American government demonstrated no knowledge of Perón's deep admiration for Italy (and his distaste for Germany, whose culture he found too rigid). Nor did they appreciate that although anti-Semitism existed in Argentina, Perón's own views and his political associations were not anti-Semitic. They paid no attention to the fact that Perón sought out the Jewish community in Argentina to assist in developing his policies and that one of his most important allies in organizing the industrial sector was José Ber Gelbard, a Jewish immigrant from Poland."

Levine, Laurence. "Inside Argentina from Peron to Menem." Edwin House Publishing. New York: 2001. ISBN 0964924773 [3]

-- Argentine lad (talk) 09:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that even though I think the section is unnecessary I did not deleted it. I made edits and I explained why. Please refer to my explanations in particular. Bakersville (talk) 11:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Going through the archived comments of the talk page (archived by Argentine Lad). I've noticed that all the edits by Argentine Lad are copied from a previous discussion in talk from another editor (If you are the same editor under different name please confirm). This may explain the out of context quoting. Please comply with WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT talk 13:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not true. I have added some new material, and I have personally verified that those quotes are indeed where they say they are. I have violate no rule on Wikipedia.

I have already mentioned that the points I raise were brought up by other editors on this talk page. One editor mentioned that when talking about Nazism in Argentina we are talking about Argentina and not Juan Peron. Other editors mentioned that Peron was not fascist. Another editor supplied a list of quotes backing this up. And I added some information I found on my own, such as the information from the Jewish Virtual Library. I am doing what other editors have not done: combine the comments of these editors into contributions on the article discussion page, DARING to go against the subtext of this article which seems to be hell bent on the idea that Peron was a fascist and a nazi.

The comments are not out of context, and they are entirely cited. I have indeed complied with WP:CITE#SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. Most of the books quoted here are available on Amazon.com and you can go and search within the book contents to see that the quotes are there. Others I have checked at the library. Still others are articles available online, such as the references from Jewish Virtual Library. These references are not out of context and they are cited.

I understand that many of you do not like Juan Peron. But you are letting your anti-Peron bias masquerade as neutral research, which isn't fair. Most serious biographers of Juan Peron would argue that his participation in the ratlines was a minor aspect of his career and doesn't even deserve a great mention in his biography. It deserves mention on the article about the ratlines. But if it is going to be here, then it is only fair that a counter balance be present to show both sides. Please comply with Wikipedia's rules about neutrality.

If you remove the information I have supplied in this article you are doing so simply because it disputes your own personal view of Juan Peron, as it has become apparent that many of you want him portrayed as an evil nazi who helped murder millions of Jews in the holocaust. That's your personal interpretation. It is not historical fact. You have no right to remove the information I've supplied. Your personal bias does not give you mandate. Argentine lad (talk) 21:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The material I deleted, I did because is either false (like the Time article quote) or plainly ilogical (he assisted the Nazi criminals for technological advances). Obviously he did not help the nazis murder millions of Jews, and whoever states that doesn't read any history (or geography). But if you want to praise Peron, maybe you should try better that writing that he had a jewish minister and he did not build concentration camps. Please address my comments on your edits: In particular. 1. Highlighting opinions of Page, describing Peron as a "pacifist", is highly POV. It is Page opinion on Peron and not a fact. We can start quoting authors left and right on the subject without bring any light on the issue. I propose deleting that quote. 2. "Perón sought out the Jewish community for participation in his government", the point that Gelbard was a close confidant doesn't mean that he sought out the whole community. More evidence on this is needed to include that sentence. 3. "Because Peronism, the political philosophy Juan Perón developed, contains no anti-Semitic or other racial bias, there were no concentration camps in Perón's Argentina" Of course there were no concentration camps in Argentina. I don't understand why to include that. 4. Time Magazine writes "in practice the Perón regime resembled hardly at all the defeated European fascist dictatorships." The sourced article actually argues Peron's closer associations with the fascist. Wronk link? 5. "Juan Perón allowed Nazi criminals into the country in hopes of acquiring advanced German technology developed during the war" Which technology was Eichman an expert in?. That theory doesn't hold. Bakersville (talk) 23:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

You have no right to delete that information. The theory that he allowed Nazis into the country in an attempt to gain access to advanced technology developed during the war is advanced by Tomas Eloy Martinez, an internationally recognized literary figure, and the director of Latin American studies at Rutgers University. His statement was published in Time Magazine. This is a reputable authority published in perhaps THE most notable political magazine in the United States. It is not your judgment to make whether his assertion is illogical. As a Wikipedia editor it is your place to decide whether it is a correctly cited reference made by a notable source in a third-party context. It is.

In 1964 Jorge Luis Borges stated that "the mother of that woman [Evita]" was "the madam of a whorehouse in Junin." He repeated the calumny so often that some still believe it or, more commonly, think Evita herself, whose lack of sex appeal is mentioned by all who knew her, apprenticed in that imaginary brothel. Around 1955 the pamphleteer Silvano Satander employed the same strategy to concoct letters in which Evita figures as an accomplice of the Nazis. It is true that Peron facilitated the entrance of Nazi criminals to Argentina in 1947 and 1948, thereby hoping to acquire advanced technology developed by the Germans during the war. But Evita played no part. She was far from being a saint, despite the veneration of millions of Argentines, but she was not a villain either. Human beings are full of contradictions and labyrinthine complexities. Rarely do they resemble their portrayal in the musicals of Hollywood and Broadway. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html

About Page's reference to Peron as a pacifist, yes, that's his opinion. But it is the opinion of a man who is considered a scholar on the topic and who wrote a book about the topic. It is not the opinion of a gas station employee. It is the opinion of a notable authority and it is correctly cited. You simply do not agree with what he has written. In other words, your POV clashes with his POV. However, Page is the notable and verifiable authority in this context. Not you. Sorry. (Wikipedia does not disallow point-of-view statements so long as they are clarified and cited as the statements of notable authorities. Points of view are everywhere.)

"He was at heart a pacifist. He steadfastly rejected violence as an open instrument of policy.... His record, while far from perfect, stands in sharp contrast to the torture and killing that traumatized Argentina in the late 1970s. Moreover, it is undeniable that the man once reviled as a South American Hitler would have never plunged or plundered his country into war."

Page, Joseph. "Peron: A Biography." Random House. New York: 1983. ISBN 0394522974 http://www.amazon.com/Peron-BIOGRAPHY-Joseph-Page/dp/0394522974/ page 502

I am going to revert your most recent revision because you continue to remove things from the article based solely on your own personal dislike of the material. This is what is called vandalism. Argentine lad (talk) 00:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not much to add to what I've already noted in my comments. 1) On Page's comment on Peron as a pacifist, if it stays it doesn't belong in the section you created, which is suppose to be about the jewish community. Then other conflicting views should be added to provide balance. 2. The Eloy Martínez quote is from a very skimpy article about a broadway play. If there is a theory on Peron's intentions when he decided to welcome Nazi's criminals of war, we need more than that. Apart from the Huemul Project cited in the article (a fiasco actualy) I don't see any evidence of technology advances from his policy. 3. Still the time quote doesn't provide substantiation. 4. Your sentence "Because Peronism, the political philosophy Juan Perón developed, contains no anti-Semitic or other racial bias, there were no concentration camps in Perón's Argentina", is ridiculous, you cannot substantiate lack of anti-semitism or racial basis (when there is no acussation to start with) on the absence of concentration camps. I still held to my other objections expressed previously. The talk page that you archive has other instances of this discussion. I requested third opinion. I will not revert at this time, but IMHO if this section is staying in the article it needs a rewrite. Bakersville (talk) 13:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to make changes to the section 1) it needs better sources, 2) if you want to defend Peron against charges of antisemitism you should first provide evidence that someone has made this kind of accusation. 3) writing this; "Because Peronism, the political philosophy Juan Perón developed, contains no anti-Semitic or other racial bias, there were no concentration camps in Perón's Argentina" and staating the existence of a jewish cabinet minister is an absurd way to defend Peron against (unsourced) charges of antisemitism. EP 22:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't claim in the article itself that people have accused him of anti-Semitism. I said on this talk page that people have accused him of Nazism from the start. These are excellent sources, by the way, because they come straight out of works by biographers and from scholars. Argentine lad (talk) 05:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)