Talk:Zulu people

Worst British Defeat Since WWII

Speaking about the Battle of Isandlwana, someone wrote that it was the worst defeat of the British until WWII. That can't be right! For instance, (and I'm sure there's more instances) the Battle of Gallipoli, during WWI, was far worse... The British lost over 200,000 men in that battle and were soundly defeated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.217.56.216 (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

2004 discussion

Someone recently removed from the article the statement, "they moved into South Africa in the 1500s from the Congo region..." I have no idea of the facts, so I am not restoring it, but I strongly suggest that when removing a substantive statement, one should give references. -- Jmabel 21:07, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

One should give references when adding such a substantative statement. I'm not sure what references you are asking for that would support the removal of such a statement. — Timwi 21:25, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Agreed that one should give references when adding (and so few do, and I've actually had people complain when I do!), but doesn't it concern you when people delete substance without even a comment? In this case, I have no idea of the facts, but I've run across a lot of cases of someone deleting stuff just because they found a fact uncongenial, haven't you? -- Jmabel 05:38, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry folks - I removed it. The Bantu, as a language group, originated around Cameroon / Congo, and worked their way down Eastern Africa. The Bantu cover dozens of language groups. The Zulu were a small tribe of 1500 in South Africa at the end of the 1700s - to suggest they trekked down themselves from Congo is absurd. I will be working on the Bantu pages. I ripped a lot of stuff from the de wikipedia for Nguni, interesting, but quite German .. I was going to do the same for Bantu. But - thanks for pointing out the Wikiquette of noting it on the Talk page. Wizzy

Colors

I think that colors of infobox should be changed and i said this when Jmabel asked me about it:

Any particular reason you edited the infobox on Zulu into colors that do not match the standard Infobox for ethnic groups? Thought I'd check before reverting. -- Jmabel 17:19, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I wanted to make every part of table more noticeable. If it is in different color then it`s easier for human brain to read and understand whole article. Maybe the colors could be other than the one I chose but it is important that they are different.

                      User:Avala18:20, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also color shange was supported by User:Wikiwizzy:

I think they look great. maybe Infobox for ethnic groups needs tarting up ? Wizzy

I can't speak for your brain, but mine doesn't find your color scheme easy to process at all. It was far too jumpy and drew attention to itself, rather than to the information presented. Mkweise 19:57, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The so-called "better" colors are ugly, distracting, and amateurish. Small blocks of color are not conducive to reading. -- Cyrius|&#9998 21:22, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

Agree with Cyrius, Jmabel and Mkweise. Too many colors make it difficult to read. Just reverted the Wikipedia:Infobox#Ethnic_groups -- chris_73 23:59, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the numerous colors were quite disconcerting and distracting. Tuf-Kat 03:55, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Some more modern information

I did a bit of tweaking of the statement about Zulu people being basket weavers, bead makers and subsistence farmers. While this is true of a protion of the population, an awful lot of Zulus hold very urban jobs, and are very modernized.

Also added a bit more on Zulu music, and mentioned that Zulu people are the most numerous ethnic group in the country.

User:Kierano 14h36 , 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

I've qualified the mention of some Zulu musicians going uncredited by white musicians who have used or covered their music. The background to the various cover versions of Mbube/Wimoweh/The Lion Sleeps Tonight is extremely complex. However, Pete Seeger, who did the original Western version (an instrumental, as part of The Weavers) was keen to have Solomon Linda credited and paid royalties, although he wasn't enitrely succesful. Some later groups and singers who covered it assumed it to be a traditional folk song in the public domain. There's a good article about the endless difficulties assosciated with the song linked on the Wimoweh page. --MockTurtle 17:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism ?

I don't mean to trouble the author however it seems someone has vandalized this page. Would anyone know how to report this or would leaving a message on the Discussion Page be sufficient ? 64.12.116.136, 18:46, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• It's fixed. The person who did it was apparently at a middle school in Michigan. They have been warned that if this happens again we will have to cut off their editing privileges. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:20, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Population

Do we have any citations on population numbers? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:57, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

From [1] (which is based on the 2001 census): "Nearly a quarter of the population have isiZulu as their home language. Of the 10 677 305 isiZulu speakers, 7 624 284 live in KwaZulu-Natal, 1 902 025 in Gauteng, 822 934 in Mpumalanga, 138 091 in the Free State, and 92 288 in North West." Probably safe to assume that the number of Zulus more or less equals the number of Zulu speakers? [unsigned; User:Elf-friend Mar 4, 2005]

I would think that it is fair to presume that the number of Zulus should equal or exceed the number of Zulu-language speakers, unless someone can present evidence that any significan number of non-Zulus speak Zulu. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:51, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

Well, probably quite a number of non-Zulus can speak isiZulu, but would in all likelihood not speak it as their home language. Elf-friend 00:00, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC) (Remembering to sign this time ... :-) )

Most of my friends who are not Zulu, but Pedi, Venda, Xhosa and Ndebele can speak isiZulu as a second language. Even friends from Zimbabwe who have never been to South Africa can speak isiZulu. --Jcw69 17:37, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. But on a census, would they describe themselves as Zulu speakers? I speak Spanish pretty well, but I'd certainly never describe myself to a census-taker as a Spanish-speaker. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:40, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that the census tallied people who speak it as their home language, not those who speak it as their second (or third or fourth or ...) language. I think it is very safe to assume that people who speak it as their home language are (with very few exceptions, such as multi-cultural marriages (to coin a phrase)) Zulus. Elf-friend 21:56, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History

I've added a history section (long overdue, I think!) Most of the information comes from other pages on specific topics (I've added lots of cross-links). There are still a few gaps, however: I'm not too sure of the situation between the end of the Anglo-Zulu war, and the creation of Zululand. I'm also not too sure of the facts around Dingane's murder of Piet Retief and co (but someone should probably mention that, too). (User:Kierano 12 April 2005)

1. Right, I've got back to this article, and have begun filling out the history section (I believe there was a complaint about the incompleteness on the Wikiproject:Ethnic groups page). If anyone wants to lend a hand, the link at the bottom of the page to the history section on the official Zululand website provides a lot of fairly detailed source material (though probably shouldn't be taken to be definitive). -Kieran 09:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
   • Thanks, glad to see someone working on this on again. - Jmabel | Talk 23:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Bantu

I'm not sure you can say Zulu derives from Bantu. Firstly that makes Bantu sound like a language, and secondly Zulu is a Bantu language, it doesn't merely derive from one. Italian doesn't derive from Romance languages, it is one. Similarly with Bantu languages, no? Joziboy 28 Feb 2006, 14:38 UTC

I've reworded accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

comment

(moved from article)

It is not clear why the Inkatha and the political violence, that took place in the provinces of KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng, should feature prominently in this discussion. Zulu, as in the case of German, French, Frisian and other languages, should be analysed and discussed in a very informative manner and such a discussion should not purport stereotypes and embedded racist attitudes that are often found in many African reading materials (developed mostly by Europeans). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.218.13.118 (talk • contribs)

Seems to me that the person who wrote it is confused between the Zulu language (which is not the subject of the article) and the Zulu people, who are. As such, their recent political history, such as Inkhata, is extremely pertinent to the article. Political violence was unfortunately an aspect of South Africa's recent past (and still is in some parts of KZN, although not nearly as bad as in the past) and to try to hide or deny it (as the Swiss (apparently?) user would apparently have us do) would amount to censorship of Wikipedia. I suggest the user who wrote that should examine his own preconceptions, which he used to interpret the article, and not necessarily read the preconceptions of others into it. Regards, Elf-friend 10:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact, whoever this user is needs to do a bit of reading on how Wikipedia works, as (s)he has gone and copied and pasted the entire history section of a copyrighted tourism website into the article. I'll get onto removing it. (sigh) -Kieran 18:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. This really qualifies as vandalism. A few (important) paragraphs were completely removed from the text, and replaced with huge, out-of-place, blocks of coprighted content.

Also, as the author of the content, I agree with Elf-friend: The political violence that occurred in KZN is an unfortunate, but important part of the Zulu peoples', and this country's history. It's fairly well documented, too (see, for instance, the Human Rights Watch report from 1993). For that matter, Zulus were almost certainly the main victims of that violence in the province, and it almost certainly had a major influence on local politics. I'm not sure if I would call a short paragraph in several pages of history "featuring prominently", either. I do concede that there are other important aspects of Zulu history from the last two decades to include, such as the continuation and eventual official recognition of the Zulu monarchy and tribal system, or a mention of the University of Zululand. These will be covered, but for now, there is factual content on the political violence, and no justifiable reason to remove it. -Kieran 19:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

having problem to understand one sentence in music section

Having problem to uderstand this in the Music section:

"isigubudu" (which can be translated as converging horns on a beast, with tips touching the animal, a spiralling inward that reflects inner feelings).

I can't translate it in the chinese Wiki.but I will keep this english text in chinese.

please explain abit more...so that I have more idea to put this in chinese.thank you.

--Hkchan123 14:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's a quote I found in an essay here:

The Zulu nation was forged through the ‘horns of the beast’ battle formation, which encircles the enemy. This is re-enacted in the Zulu wedding ceremony, where bride and groom’s family arrange themselves as two horns in a battle of song. The harmony of this song, isigubudu, describes the convergence of horns of the beast.

It might help with understanding this. I have a feeling the music section of the article needs a bit of a re-write, but I don't know enough about Zulu music to be able to do it without research. -Kieran 14:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of the music section, Little Bow Wow (presumably Lil Bow Wow, now Bow Wow) is almost certainly wrong: there is no discernible Zulu influence in their music. Bow Wow Wow, on the other hand, ripped off several Zulu jive songs on their first non-cassette release, See Jungle! See Jungle! Go Join Your Gang, Yeah. City All Over! Go Ape Crazy. The title is more or less a phonetic replication of the original Zulu lyrics of the song they rip off as "See Jungle". I haven't got the album handy, but I believe "Golly! Golly! Go Buddy!" is also a reworking of a Zulu pop song. Anyway, I will make this change, because I'm pretty certain that is who was meant. - Jmabel | Talk 20:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

political violence edit

I entered info about the third force because there is evidence that the government was instigating the violence.

I also changed the languages spoken in Gauteng to Zulu followed by Sesotho instead of English and Afrikaans (according to: http://www.info.gov.za/aboutsa/landpeople.htm#gt ). Wileywendy 21:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Zulu seperatism

I do not see any information on Zulu seperatism, spearheaded by the Inkatha Freedom Party in the negotiations before the 1994 general elections, and for which there probably still are some proponents. --Gemsbok1 21:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, feel more than free to add this; yes, I noticed the omission, too, but haven't been very involved in South African topics. Also, one might want to mention the so-called "Zulu Option" advocated by some defenders of apartheid: giving the Zulus superior status to other blacks, hoping to spli them off from the rest of the anti-apartheid movement. - Jmabel | Talk 03:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Fixing Dinuzulu's name link; "animism"; Zimbabwe

As part of some other editing, I have changed the spelling of Dinuzulu's name from the incorrect but common "Dinizulu." However, it appears that the main article on Dinuzulu uses the incorrect spelling, and I do not know how to change main titles & hence had to leave the links with the incorrect spelling. If someone can change the main name and link, or tell me how to do so at my talk page, that would be good. Likewise with Zibhephu -- the "U" at the beginning should be left off, or should be included with all personal names (UShaka, UMpande, UMangosuthu) etc. Not sure if this link may need revision. Also I corrected an error about when Dinuzulu was charged with treason, which was in connection with the 1906 Bhambhatha Rebellion, but to put in that link, I had to use the spelling "Bambatha" which is the title of that article -- recent literature treats that spelling as incorrect. ('Bh' is a breathed sound, 'b' is unbreathed in isiZulu). Again the other article title and the link need fixing.

I also corrected "imzi" (apparently a corruption of "imizi"=houses (s. "umuzi")) to "isizwe," since the reference was to "tribe or clan." The term tribe is problematic but for the present I have let it be -- but isizwe really means nation or people, not tribe. When the ANC called its armed wing Umkhonto we Sizwe, it was Spear of the Nation, not Spear of the Tribe. The word for "clan" is isibongo (pl. izibongo), which is closer to "surname" than to "tribe" in the sense meant in the article, since "tribes" were political chiefdoms composed of persons of many izibongo (necessarily so, because of clan exogamy), though usually identified by the isibongo of the chief.

Another thing I have left standing because I am not in a position to deal with the consequences for links right now is the term "animism" for Zulu traditional religion. However, that term pretty severely mischaracterizes Zulu traditional religion, which focuses on ancestor veneration. "Animism" is a form of religion that treats all objects and animals as spiritually alive (animated) and is primarily oriented to natural surroundings accordingly, which is not true of any of the indigenous religions of Bantu-language speaking peoples in southern Africa, though it might be more plausible for historical Bushman and Khoekhoe religions. It appears that there is a tendency across Wikipedia to call all African traditional religion "animist," which is wrong.

Finally, there are references to "Zulu" in Zimbabwe. The Ndebele people in Zimababwe are partly descended from Zulu people who fled Shaka under the leadership of Mzilikazi, but only partly. While siNdebele as a language is even closer to isiZulu than other mutually intelligible languages such as siSwati or isiXhosa, the Ndebele have a quite distinct political history and ethnic identity which is only a few years younger than Zulu as the focus of a major precolonial kingdom. I will try to come back to fix this if I can. I will also try to put in more references.

I apologize for the incomplete editing & will try to figure out how to change article titles and grasp the linking techniques & reference conventions better -- any guidance appreciated at my talk page.

Cclowe

(I cannot get the name link on the talk page to work or the tilde key-cap on my keyboard to produce a tilde in my browser)

Someone has now moved Dinizulu to Dinuzulu. On the rest of this, if you need technical help, feel free to hit me up on my user talk page, but content-wise it sounds like you are way beyond me on this topic. If you really cannot type tildes on your browser, please do note the "Symbols" section below the edit box when you edit, which should have a place to click to insert a tilde. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible Uncertainty and Historical Incorrectness

There may be an incorrect statment on this subject under the fall of the Zulu Nation during the Anglo-Zulu war (which should really be British-Zulu war) concerning a defeat of the zulu impiis that attacked Rawkes Drift and the Welsh borderes Company there. the zulus did not suffer so much a sevear defeat in that the impii's general simply called off the attack when he decided to recodnise the welsh garison as "felow braves". so it was more a Zulu military blunder which gave enough of morale to amend that dropped by the loss of the rest of the garrisons Regiment the 24th foot. I wish that anyone with evidence to oppose this contact me on Willymus_2k6_williams@hotmail.com, via email. thank you. CJ.Williams—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.197.225.62 (talk) 19:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

vandalism?

are some of the headings a bit off? i'm no expert, but they seem a bit funny. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.170.124.162 (talk) 16:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Another comment

(comments by 62.189.247.155 moved here from article)---Sluzzelin talk 14:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I must say I strongly disagree with the information you have provided.

Isaiah Shembe (not Shambe) started a church around 1916 that was based on the Christian knowledge he had and the revelation he believes he received from God. This church does not represent the beliefs of amaZulu. Shembe cannot be called a Zulu messiah as only amaZulu but also other tribes, for example amaXhosa, worship him.

The diviner, who mediates with amaDlozi is rarely ever a woman. This is the duty of the head of the family who is always a male figure. If the father in the family is dead, this head will then be one of his brothers or his eldest son. Not a woman.

AmaZulu do believe that some deaths are caused by natural disasters. That is why the ones who believe in ancestral worship will ask their ancestors to pray to God to forgive them for whatever sin they might have committed to bring such bad luck in the family.

This information is also widely available on the internet. You may also approach the South African consulate in your country.

Just a thought...

Wow! This truly is an awesome article! Great work, guys.

I do have 2 suggestions:

1. Could someone PLEASE get a decent picture instead of the stereotype that's currently at the top? Like a picture of your umZulu friend or, if you're truly desperate, a picture of Jacob Zuma or something like that. The current picture is rather unacceptable.
2. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have this article at Zulu people with Zulu being a dab?

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 16:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Ezeu's spelling fix

For some truly weird reason there are sites on the internet that give the names of the amaZulu kings containing unlikely spellings with "mbh"'s and "gh"'s -- this is plain wrong (I think it's some archaic orthography designed to show breathy voice).

Basically, since there was no written form of isiZulu when these people were around one can't really claim that it's incorrect to say that a proper name is misspelt. It's possible that the source for some of these names was old and no one bothered to change the spellings when they quoted it.

Thus, I propose moving all ancient amaZulu royalty names to titles using the standard orthography ("mbh" -> "mb" and "gh" -> "g"). Any objections?

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 00:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Political Violence

'Political Violence' Does not need six exclamation marks in one sentence... *edits out* Eugeniu B (talk) 16:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, but it talks about "AK-47s and Kalashnikovs". This is redundant, because "AK" stands for "Arms Kalashnikov"; the term "Kalashnikov" for a weapon usually refers to an AK-47. --24.46.164.83 (talk) 22:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)