Talk:Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz

I will be back to completer this page. Elan26

I strongly recommend against a chapter by chapter synopsis. Have a look at some other book articles for a more appropriate structure. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

thank you. Elan26 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elan26 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Polish edition

The Polish edition has been changed, I don't know how much.Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

is a nation cursed by absence

What is the reason to quote any POV by anyone?Xx236 (talk) 11:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

reason for POV

I am too old to be provoked to take part in edit war, so I prefer to state my reasons rather over here - regarding disruptive activity of an user User:Boodlesthecat who didn't contributed to this article nothing new or of essence but non-essentials regarding for example heritage of a newspaper editor while removing consistently scholar sources. See this - his last edition. Prof. Thane Rosenbaum represents here nothing else but newspaper policy, in this case Los Angeles Times, or maybe his views as novelist or observations as private citizen, not any academic institution. According to WP guidelines in respect to notability, the scholar sources outweigh newspaper editorials, so why remove Princeton University official site in the form of above mentioned Princeton University Press report, which contains much more info than present reference, and replace it by some local paper editorial written by the person with an obvious grudge against Poland. The idea of the application of collective guilt has long time ago been abandoned since Sonderweg even in retrospect to Germany, now someone wants to sell it again in retrospect to Poland for some reason or other. Fear is already cheap propaganda shot - so far acknowledged only by media policy and Gross' employer. So why someone tries to hide it, afraid of truth? Wikipedia is not a place to peddle anti-semitism in places where currently there is none. greg park avenue (talk) 17:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the bulk of your rambling post, not do I appreciate your accusations of "disruption." In any case, the source of the quote was the LA Times, and that is what is sourced. There is no need to put a needless link to Pricneton University. I have no idea what is "disruptive" or "POV" about that. Please refrain from such accusations. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So, after stripping the content in question from another evidence leaving only rant of Thane Rosenbaum (son of holocaust survivors), even if there is nothing about it in his article, you play the fool pretending that you don't understand. Now nobody understands, see one section up. Most males in certain age and of European descent including myself are sons of holocaust survivors, still only few carry it as a trademark. A miserable way to win credibility and make a living. You also should be ashamed for littering Wikipedia with this trash. greg park avenue (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

(Note that the above is a refactored version of greg park avenue's original antisemitic rant.) Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Note that accusing other editors of "antisemitism rant" is a violation of WP:NPA. Please stop attacking Greg and reply to his post in a constructive manner.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Posting antisemitic rants violates far more Wikipedia guidelines. And the heading greg park avenue chose for this section is a violation of WP:NPA. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

User Boodlesthecat has already been warned about calling anti-Semites those contributors he disagrees with. Seems like it is the easiest way for him to cut short a discussion. Tymek (talk) 02:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Replacing scholarly sources by newspaper trash is disruption. Calling me names for pointing this out is another violation. Removing POV template without solving the POV question is also against Wikipedia policy. Three misdemeanors so far in less than 24 hrs. greg park avenue (talk) 02:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Using the publisher's website as a source for a book review published in a major newspaper when the newspaper source is available makes no sense. Read WP:RS. Calling an article "POV" because you don't like what a reliable source (a book review by a notable writer published in a major newspaper) is a gross misuse of a POV tag. POV tags are not to be used simply because you don't like what a reliable source says. So please spend less time ranting and making bogus accusations of "disruptive activity" and more time reading Wikipedia guidelines. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 02:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Fear wasn't published by Princeton University Press but by Random House. Besides this source you have removed twice stays in direct reference to the text edited above about New York Times, Los Angeles Times and few more, Baltimore Sun I guess, which are sourceless. Maybe read the article first before you start editing. greg park avenue (talk) 02:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

<---Incorrect. Published 2006, Princeton University Press. ISBN:0691128782. If you want to quote from other reviews cited on the publishers website, feel free. Just source them to the respective newspapers, not the publishers website. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 03:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Hardcover: 320 pages
2. Publisher: Random House (June 27, 2006)
3. Language: English
4. ISBN-10: 0375509240
5. ISBN-13: 978-0375509247

Fear - Amazon.com greg park avenue (talk) 14:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Good USA and bad Poles, the world is simple. I'm a racist and Boodlesthecat is an expert to teach me how good people should help Jews (eg. sending SS St. Louis back to Europe like the powerful US government did). What is the expertise of Thane Rosenbaum in contemporary Polish matters? Xx236 (talk) 08:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC) Ghetto benches seem to be more important than Numerus clausus in the USA. Why? Because Poles are worse than WASPs?Xx236 (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Great, another rant. Your point is what? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 12:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Your point is what? Teaching the Polish nation about its soul? Thank you for your efforts, but Wikipedia isn't the right place to preach. I find some of your comments uncivil, so please regard me as a human being, not as a racially lower Pollack. Xx236 (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned your, or anyones' nationality where???? Making false accusations is uncivil. Please moderate your tone and stick to the article's content issues. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 14:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You got that right. Still no one has pointed out in that article that Ghetto benches were illegal in Poland until 1937, and after that they were allowed but not recommended by Polish government, which under pressure gave free hand to universities in troubled areas with significant population of German sympathizers. So what, Poland back then was a multinational community the way US is today, and democracy existed yet. Another anti-Polish rubbish to be tagged with POV. greg park avenue (talk) 13:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Instead of ranting, state the particular section that you feel violates Wikipedia guidelines. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 14:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Now you're being rude. When it comes to that I'll do that on proper page. Over here we just discuss the issues. greg park avenue (talk) 14:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You are making a "POV" claim (that's what you titled this section) and you made a uncivil claim of "Disruption" (the other part of your section title). Either state evidence for the "disruption" and the "POV", or they will be refactored from the section head, just like your antisemtic rant had to be refactored. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 14:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you justify that anti-semitic comment [1] with a list of "Jews who are tired of Thane Rosenbaum?" Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 12:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

If the term "Jews" you found offensive, then guess who more anti-semitic is, you or me? But I settle for more politically correct term like Jewish-Americans (even if there is no telling if they are really Americans) or Jewish people (even if it sounds a little pompous though). And there is no list, just few reviews by Jewish readers of Thane Rosenbaum's books you can find in enclosed reference which happened to be a Jewish community site. greg park avenue (talk) 14:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, so once again you supply a Jew-baiting rant instead of providing a source for your Jew baiting statement. As for the supposed reviews by "Jewish readers," the link you supplied was for a "Luke Ford" whose bio describes him as "The son of a Christian evangelist, Luke grew up in Australia until moving to California in 1977."

Try again. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Rant my ass. Even Jesus Christ was Jewish. What's a matter with you? Jewish, Christian or Moslem? Abraham sons or not? And the opinions expressed on that page I found sophisticated enough to include it as reference. Vet for all-Jewish origin of it. Who else would know Hebrew names of rare holidays, Jewish customs or Jewish slang words as "shiksas"? Do you? I don't think you can handle this. You don't even sound like Jewish. Thanks. greg park avenue (talk) 23:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, no longer going to feed your Jew bashing trolling. Next time I take a sample of your abusive rants to the appropriate board for admins to have a look at. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 23:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Even Jewish readers themselves find Thane Rosenbaum [] confusing: see "I'm tired of the Holocaust as a literary device". Further digging shows who really Mr Rosenbaum is: a Wall Street lawyer turned writer, who is actively engaged in a legal campaign of handling of settlements for Holocaust survivors (New York Times). Since such campaign is currently uder way in Poland, his opinion as a source is [controversial–PB] as per WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:COI. It's like being plaintiff and judge simultaneously. Yet some editors insist on keeping this source as a major source of reference while removing others as if Mr Rosenbaum was an unquestionable and only one authority on Polish affairs. Why not keep it simple and bring back the source I have supplied: Princeton University Press which covers four major newspapers (NYT, LAT, Publishers Weekly and Jewish Chronicle) instead of only one and evidently biased one and leave out this controversial issue? greg park avenue (talk) 13:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree and thus I have restored reliable Princeton University ref. A University is much more reliable than a newspaper.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, can you show me where in WP:RS a university press's commercial webpage is a better source than a major newspaper? And why does the Rosenbaum review need two separate sources? Your interventions here, including threatening to block editors who remove nasty personal rants that violate BLP is becoming pretty suspect. I suggest that you and Greg tone it down. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 15:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Because its a university, and each university sells books used for teaching, while newspapers sell bullshit which no university can afford to peddle. As you can see there is nothing about collective guilt in the text supplied by university, only in reviews delivered by newspapers. greg park avenue (talk) 18:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable sources take precedence over your personal biases and rants. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments from an uninvolved editor. Saw this at BLP/N. My suggestions: There doesn't seem to be much of content dispute. There are sensible reasons for also using the Princeton ref as a convenience link; it's not unreliable, the other one is pdf; html is preferred. Why remove it? Second, people should remember this talk page is about the book. There is much that is out of place. Thane Rosenbaum has his own page. Criticism of him within the bounds of BLP belongs there. Everyone should calm down. Gross's book is something that can easily inflame passions - so editing here can easily impel people to say things they might regret, and has done so. Everyone should try looking at it from the other side's viewpoint and then forgiving "the other side" , removing and forgetting negative, irrelevant possible BLP material and accusations from all sides that have nothing to do with improving the article.John Z (talk) 06:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Didn't realize there was a controversy over a simple link. The original source is the article, and that is what should be in the reference. The Princeton link merely quotes the article and is a commericial link which should be avoided if possible. Even if we didn't have a link to the article, the Princeton link shouldn't be used.

We can criticize sources, but we should be careful not to cross the line into attacks. I've removed some comments here which I consider to be a BLP violation. Let's stick to the content of this article, please, and avoid such comments in the future. Gamaliel (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• • • I also saw this at WP:BLP.

1. if one actually reads the Princeton ad, it clears up the publication question: the book was published in the US by Random House, and outside the US by Princeton UP.
2. the positive reviews should be not just mentioned, but cited. The inclusion of references to only negative reviews is not NPOV.
3. I don't agree with Gamliel that the princeton link couldn't be used--we do use links to published book reviews from whatever responsible source is convenient. But if the LA Times link is free, no other link is needed.
4. More important, the article contains some material dealing with the overall topic of Polish anti-semitism, mentioning the book only in passing. this is irrelevant. The article is about the book. I haven't bothered to see whether that material supports or opposes the thesis of continuing Polish anti-semitism, since that wouldn't matter, but I have removed it.
5. I'm considering archiving or deleting some of the earlier content of this page, beyond what Gamaliel did. DGG (talk) 17:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Gamaliel, that's right, "we should be careful not to cross the line into attacks". So, why do you ignore countless personal attacks on me and other editors made by User:Boodlesthecat - as per WP:NPA? Why did you removed my comments based on notable source Luke Ford, at least by Wikipedia standards - as per WP:N? Why do you ignore vandalism, disruption and edit warring practiced by the above mentioned user? He didn't contribute nothing to this article. I supplied this Thane Rosenbaum and Eva Hoffman reference in the first place, not him - a text which he rewrote several times to fit his point of view and agenda until it became incomprehensible. It's even out of context and hard to understand, just see the comment one section above. And the issue of Mr Rosenbaum's martyrdom wasn't brought by me, but was introduced in the main space by this rogue editor in question. There is nothing about it in Wikipedia article about Thane Rosenbaum, so I do object to insert it into this article until proper references are supplied, as per WP:RS. There is also a question of WP:NPOV and WP:COI regarding Mr Rosenbaum's activity for the cause of helping the Holocaust survivors to get their settlements, since such campaign is currently under way in Poland. For any possible WP:BLP violation, I apologize, didn't mean that. Thanks! greg park avenue (talk) 18:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

"Rogue editor"?? LOL!!!

Here's an example of some fine WP:NPOV writing that greg park avenue is complaining a "rogue editor" made "incomprehensible":

Reviews reprinted by Princeton University Press (Gross' place of employment) would suggest that the author appeals to the sense of collective guilt in Poland. Thane Rosenbaum alleges that "Gross' Fear should inspire a national reflection on why there are scarcely any Jews left in Poland. It's never too late to mourn. The soul of the country depends on it."[12] Yet, scholars like Eva Hoffman refute the idea of Polish collective guilt. "This is no doubt directly connected to the experience of her parents" wrote Rochelle G. Ruthchild. They "owed their survival to Christians who risked their lives to harbor them (in German-occupied Poland, where hiding Jews was punishable by death). Hoffman's belief in the courage and decency of ordinary people in the face of the venality, brutality, and racism too often displayed by Christians during the Holocaust, serves as a counterpoint to Jan Gross' account."[13]

Unfortunately, greg park avenue, beside the fact that Princeton University Press is NOT Rosenbaum's "place of employment", the refutation of Gross by Hoffman seems a bit odd, since Gross' book was published in 2006 and Hoffman's commentary was being quoted in an article from 2004! Ooopsie!!! Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

While it may suprise you, Gross is not the first scholar to address the issue (although he certainly did ignore a lot of research that did not fit into his theory). Hoffman is just such an example, and since he writes about the same issues - but draws a different conclusion (albeit one shared by many scholars of the subject) he is certainly relevant in this context.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

We should, however, heed DGG's comments and avoid wandering too far off into the greater issue and keep the article as directly related to the book as possible. Gamaliel (talk) 19:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not interested in righting past wrongs. I want to get things back on track now, regardless of who said what about whom in the past. To that end I hope all editors will be civil from now on. Please refrain from comments about other editors, such as your "rogue editor" remark, and if you are the recipient of such a remark, please do not respond in kind. If any editor feels that action is necessary as the result of the improper remarks or actions of another editor, please bring it to my attention and I will respond in an appropriate manner.

It is my impression that you have an issue with Thane Rosenbaum. You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to object to using material from Rosenbaum, but you are not entitled to use this space to cast aspersions on his character, as you have in the past and come close to doing so in your latest comment. Wikipedia:Conflict of interest would only apply if Rosenbaum or an editor acting on his behalf were using this article to promote Rosenbaum or his publications. Quoting a book review of Fear does not qualify as such a conflict of interest. The review is not from a book or blog of Rosenbaum, but a book review from a major publication, and thus would be a perfectly acceptable source for this article regardless of the author. Gamaliel (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

With regards to Rosenbaum's review, we should also quote the review of the review ([2]) and use it to qualify it, instead of our own opinions.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I just redid that paragraph a bit, keeping the review of the review in, but eliminating hoffman. It is OR in this context. The article is about a 2006 book, not about the controversy the book contributes to. The Hoffman review could be included in an article on Gross's earlier book, not this one. I strongly endorse what Gamaliel and DGG say above. Everybody should refrain from commenting on other editors. I will hypocritically violate my own last sentence now.  :-) I've looked at the history and everyone in this controversy, boodles, greg, piotr etc has made positive contributions to the article - as judged by silence = consent of these other editors. Everybody should just chill out on the talk page.John Z (talk) 19:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

False diary by Józef Kuraś

The Polish version quotes alleged diary written by Communist writer Władysław Machejek. I don't know if the original book contains the quote.Xx236 (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe it does; one of many errors in the books (actually from what I understand its not even a diary but a work of fiction Gross misread as a real diary...).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Book quote

This article is about the book Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz‎. To keep deleting a quote from the book, which is reliably sourced, is pure censorship. Please stop it. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I am puzzled by the recent deletions of a quote from the book, which would seem directly relevant and appropriate for the article. Could the editors involved please discuss the matter here? Gamaliel (talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

No matter how well sourced certain things are, Wikipedia is no place for highly controversial and non-neutral quotes, not unless they are central to the article - and I don't see how this quote is. We have clearly and in encyclopedic, neutral fashion, outlined in the article already what the book is about, no need for more quotes repeating this in an emotional tone. Personally I don't think any of the reviews (or reviews of the reviews) need to be discussed in detail, and I'd support removing some unencyclopedic, copyvio-bordering excessive quoting.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How can a quote from a book, in an article about the book, in which the author describes the thesis of the book, possibly be "non-neutral"? While at the same time, we have excessive quotes from a self published "analysis" by a "think tank" slamming the book taking up as much space as the book's description. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps because the book itself is not neutral? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless there are any reasons for omitting the quote per Wikipedia guidelines (rather than personal objections by editors to the author's statements), I will be restoring the quote, which is relevant and germane to this article and reliably sourced. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I have listed the objections and relevant policies above. Several users have removed it, which only goes to prove you are going way against the consensus. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please cite which Wikipedia article guideline/policies the quote violates. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Gamaliel and Boodles on this one. The reader of this article will want to know what Gross says. Our only concern is that we quote him accurately and representatively. A historical example. Look at Mein Kampf. We want to know just what Hitler said, no matter how depraved it was. The first English translations were abridged, leaving out the nastier parts, and this distorted some people's perceptions. FDR was more prescient than many in opposing Hitler partly because he was fluent in German and read the original. If Gross's thesis is insupportably or abhorrently anti-Polish, we should leave it to our readers to judge. The commentaries at the piast institute can provide useful supplements to this quote. I'd also suggest expanding on the positive reviews, not just Rosenbaum's. We should see which the institute finds the most fair, in the interest of providing acceptably neutral information. Part of the problem is that the reviewers seem to have gone beyond Gross, which is unusual and the opposite of what we would usually do in our dusty old electronic encyclopedia.John Z (talk) 01:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what this quote adds to the article. If the readers want to know exactly what Gross say, they can get the book. We already have a fair and neutral, encyclopedic and unemotional description of the book and its key points. Mein Kampf which you mention cites Hitler only in one place, allegedly with several famous quotes (they need sourcing, up to and including whether they are truly famous, btw). If one can show that this quote from Fear is already considered famous, sure, we can include it. Otherwise, I don't see anything that this quote does, other than adding unnecessary emotional content to an article that should be such, and begging a more quote warring (i.e. if it is kept, soon somebody will cherrypick another quote from Fear to contradict it and so on).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, I wasn't clear. I did not mean to refer to the wiki article on Mein Kampf, and linked as a reflex. The quote was picked from a review. That is one reason it is notable, and it is the author's explanation of his own thesis. My point with MK was that editting out parts that one side may see as the nasty ones is counterproductive to that very side. The stronger, the more emotional, the more objectionable even the thesis, the likelier that it is noteworthy and encyclopedic and will be seen as such by reviewers - in fact what Gross says in the quote is explicitly addressed in the material at the institute's symposium and it would be entirely proper to counterpose it to the quote. The book is highly controversial and non-neutral, why would one expect quotes from it not to be so? - and it almost goes without saying that typical quotes have a place in a book article. That's standard practice everywhere. Cf DGG below and my reply to Greg below also. Cheers,John Z (talk) 07:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Gamaliel - we don't discuss here the content of the book, do we? Which is a fiction to most Poles. Gross based it on a communist regime propaganda writer, Majcherek or something, who allegedly produced a so called Kuraś diary - a diary by a guerilla turned communist, turned criminal, turned ... To tell the long story short he became a stray soldier or mercenary just like those you've seen in "Apocalypse now" or "Rambo" series. There was a warrant for him and for his group back in 1945, the kind of "wanted dead or alive". They presumably killed for money, not because they hated Jews, probably just because they thought Jews carry money or so, and there were 26 Jews in that bus, not 40. 8 were left dead, 10 wounded, 8 escaped. Just a criminal act, which are plenty of after each war, nothing else. And now Gross tries to blame this random crime on all nation which is only second in numbers of victims during the WWII (don't count aggressors' victims). When WWII started, we Poles were the only ones who fought against them, while all the rest of the world including English speaking countries UK and US sat back and watched. Now they write essays, novels, reviews in which they tell their side of the story as seen from a high rise elevator somewhere on Wall Street and jump and scream bloody murder hearing the stories about the cattle cars and try to inspire Poles into collective guilt who obviously didn't fight against Nazis and Communists too well. Smile. greg park avenue (talk) 02:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A short summary of a book can perfectly well includes a short quotation, and that is not copyvio, but accepted use everywhere in the world. It's often the clearest way to explain what the argument is, and the purpose of the article is to give information about the book. This book may or may not be biased, and we make no conclusions about that. We present its argument, we link to positive and negative criticism. What we do not do is attempt to argue the question--that belongs in the articles on the subject concerned. The reviewers say what they say, but if we quote from them we limit ourselves to the parts about the book itself. Reviewers often make original contributions in their review to the subject discussed, and many reviews in various places are written for exactly that purpose. That's their purpose, but it certainly is not ours. The immediately above comment is an OR review of the book and has no place here whatsoever, even as an argument on a talk page. The book was written, the reviews show it is notable. It says what it says. We say what the content of the book is, but we do not discuss the underlying topic -- I fully endorse the approach taken by Gamaliel, which is the proper NPOV approach to controversial books. DGG (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course, it's an OR review of mine, just to show what such reviews are worth, or books like that. One may prove anything by quoting a verse just as from the Bible. But Gross' essay is not a Bible, isn't it? No quotes from controversial book or suspected biased books should be placed without additional reference stating that these are true or false. Otherwise we may introduce an erroneous information into Wikipedia, and someone will take it for granted. So, we say what the book says, but no quotes, which include for example number of casualties, without confirmation from independent sources. Is that OK with you? greg park avenue (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Greg, we should use representative quotes that explain what the book is about. We should not make the article a quotefarm from the book, but that is the opposite state from where the article is now. The author's opinion and summary of his own work is always relevant. Quoting makes it clearer that we are not trying to present facts, but opinion. From a pro-Polish POV, it simply doesn't make sense to edit out an author's (alleged) anti-Polish views and quotes. Our readers are not small children who must be protected. "Someone will take it for granted" is exactly what will not happen if we quote correctly. To simplify and exaggerate ( to think is to exaggerate) Suppose someone famous writes a book called Poles are Totally Evil, and its first sentence is "Contrary to common belief, the Germans did not kill any Jews, in fact they saved them from the evil Poles and this massively documented book shows how Germany and the Soviet Union protected themselves from Polish aggression." Should we leave such a sentence out of an article on the book? Ridiculous, doubly ridiculous if a reviewer points it out, whether approvingly or I hope, disapproving, and then we quote or cite the review. The more controversial, the more the suspected bias, the less the likelihood someone will take it for granted. Of course I and any policy-conscious editor agrees with you that Gross's book should not be taken as a plain, unattributed source of facts (if that is what you are saying), like the highly disputed and almost certainly wrong figure of 1,600 in his earlier book. The selected quote is selected from a review that considers it notable and enlightening, so there is not the slightest hint of OR in using it. It goes without saying that I endorse everything DGG and Gamaliel say above. The only thing I'd add is that - we do not discuss the underlying topic except by saying book review X says Y about the book's statement Z. To say anything else is OR.John Z (talk) 06:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

So now, after removing all references from educational sites, you're going to change this article into a quote farm with selected quotes the way the sorry article Allegations of Israeli apartheid is, assuming only adults read Wikipedia. There is only one comment to that - that's how we make Wikipedia suck. Cheers! greg park avenue (talk) 12:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Greg, I argued to keep the link to princeton. One quote is not a quotefarm. The article should be an NPOV, NOR book review. Book reviews usually - almost always - have quotes from the book. I don't really understand most of the objections. The way things usually work is the more against a book one is, the more one wants quotes from it. Quotes are the author, not us anonymous and omniscient wikipedians talking, and make it much less likely to be "taken for granted" as factual. Just repeating myself.John Z (talk) 18:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This is an article about a book, not about a particular review. Is this quote extraodrinary? Is it quoted by several reviews? If not, I don't see what will we gain from including it.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it makes clear that Gross thinks there was a "novel, virulent quality of postwar anti-Semitism in Poland" spurred by the mere presence of Jews and guilty consciences. Not clear from the rest of the article. To quote is not to agree with this There seems to be a very strange idea that it is, or that it will somehow convince the reader's of its truth better than our summary, (which I find less informative and longer). What do you think about my made up example of Poles Are Totally Evil ? If it duplicates material elsewhere in the article, a better question is "what does this other material adds to the article?" Quoting improves neutrality in contentious material. It decreases OR-ishness. It increases credibility that what we say about the book is accurate. An anonymous editor's summary is always disputable and harder to check. Quoting is mechanically checkable, cut and dried, and less open to spinning. Is argument necessary that the author's own summation of his thesis is relevant to an article about a book?!? How could this NOT be "central to the article"?! It's the usual thing. If you can, find a better self-summarizing quote. What is there about this particular book that makes it a bad thing to quote it at all? We pick the best, most representative and informative quote that we can find. There are 4 editors arguing for quoting (Me, Boodles, DGG, and Gamaliel) Gamaliel's word "puzzling" goes for me to in regard to the opposition to it. How many reviews do you ask for? I saw some stuff at the piast instiute, didn't memorize where, that seemed to be arguing directly against this representative and informative quote. Here is DGG again "A short summary of a book can perfectly well includes a short quotation, and that is not copyvio, but accepted use everywhere in the world. It's often the clearest way to explain what the argument is "

Here's the quote, for convenience sake:

We must seek the reasons for the novel, virulent quality of postwar anti-Semitism in Poland not in collective hallucinations nor in prewar attitudes, but in actual experiences acquired during the war years...Living Jews embodied the massive failure of character and reason on the part of their Polish neighbors and constituted by mere presence both a reminder and a threat that they might need to account for themselves

Cordially,John Z (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we sure that this is the only quote from Gross we want to add, and that this quote best represents his book? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No, not at all. I don't have the book. (I do/did have his earlier one, and I am not a fervent admirer of it.) But I think we can put some quote in - this one for now, and find some reviewers criticism (or praise) of the quote or its thesis, and try to get a neutral, mainstream take on it. John Z (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

John, don't give me that good cop/bad cop crap. You have removed one vital source, Gamaliel removed another. The sources which summarized Gross' intentions and the very topic of the book. What's important, they came from educational sites. Now you guys litter this article with a mountain of newspaper trash to the point the article became uncomprehensible and on the top of this you want to litter it even more with Gross' inarticulate and pathological anti-Polish rant in the form of quotes. Why not keep it simple: bring back both those scholarly sources and add one quote (if you can find it) supporting the Gross' main thesis as a reply to his question why there are no more Jewish people in Poland?, then we take it from here. Besides, what do you think John, why? I think for the same reason why there are no Germans in Poland any more. But does it mean all Poles are anti-German? Or why there are no French movies in American media any more? Did you really believed if someone told you - that's why because all Americans are anti-French? greg park avenue (talk) 01:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

arbitrary section break after outdent for quote

Since there are no indications in the above discussion that restoring the quote violates any wikipedia policies or guidelines, I assume it is fine to restore it. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 13:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Since there are no indications in the above discussion that you pay any attention to several editors who object to restoration of the quote and have presented arguments why it shouldn't be, I assume it will be quickly removed again.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 14:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

<----Can you cite a particular Wikipedia guideline or policy that restoring the quotes would violate? That would be the only reaosn to remove it, as opposed to the personal opposition (as distinct from Wikipedia policy guidelines) that some editors have expressed above. Personal dislike of material is not a valid grounds for removal; in fact, it is the veryu definition of a POV violation. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 14:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, as the quote is not neutral. What policy would support inclusion of the quote? Personal like is not a valid grounds for restoration; in fact, it is the very definition of a POV violation.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not following you at all, Piotrus. How is putting a representative quote from the book, reliably sourced, a violation of WP:NPOV? In an article about George Washington, wuold it be a violation of WP:NPOV to put a picture of Whashington because someone might think he's ugly? And how could it possibly be the case that the self-published opinions of a little-known think tank and a slew of Polish commentators are WP:NPOV, and the actual statement of the author they are criticising is not WP:NPOV? Can you please clarify, with reference to specifically what part of WP:NPOV is being violated by putting a quote from the book that is the subject of this article. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 19:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV does not apply here in the manner you describe. It is an article about a book, and it must present the contents, thesis, and arguments of that book in a neutral manner. Quoting the book does so. If the quote presents facts or arguments you feel are invalid, you can rebut them with factual sources or counterarguments from reliable sources. Gamaliel (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed,the quote should go in until someone suggests a more representative one. Ideally, using a quote also quoted in a relatively neutral review as being representative, or at least an indication that it represents the author's summary of the argument. But I do disagree with Gamaliel, that the place to discuss the arguments in the quote would not be here. Piotrus, you are almost always right about RSs on these subjects, but not this time. I agree it's an inflammatory quote, whether right or wrong; it is an inflammatory book, & the quote make its message clear. We give the context for that by showing the different reviews. DGG (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)