Talk:Tom Daley

Confused

What is the difference between the British Championships and the ASA National Championships? Is the latter for English competitors only? Tanbace (talk) 20:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems so, they are definitely separate events. I've now tracked down the 2007 British Championships, which confusingly took place in December 2006. The 2008 British Championships are taking place on 4-6 January 2008 in Manchester. Tanbace (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Key dates 2008

• 18-20 Jan: Madrid Grand Prix
• 19-24 Feb: World Cup, Beijing
• 28-29 Jun: British Olympic trials
• 10-23 Aug: Olympics

Youngest Olympian status

I know this cox has said that he was younger, but does he count? He didn't actually compete himself in my book. I guess the key question is whether a rowing cox is eligible for a medal. Does anyone know if he is? Luwilt (talk) 20:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Course he counts! He certainly competed, you try rowing a coxed boat without one and see how you get on! No idea if he's eligible for a medal, but he's definitely an Olympian. Ged UK (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Further, I've checked through wikipedia, and Patrick Sweeney (rower) is classed as having won a Bronze, so I think that's that. Ged UK (talk) 21:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well that is pretty stupid. It would make more sense to give coaches medals. Try rowing a coxed boat without a boatbuilder, but boatbuilders don't get medals. Tom Daley is an outstanding athlete, but can the same be said of the cox who is supposedly the record holder? I don't think so. His achievement is essentially fake. It was gifted to him by the real Olympians. They might have put an eight year old in the boat, or a baby for that matter, and they could still have reached the end of the course, but a baby couldn't do Tom Daley's dives. Luwilt (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Stupid or not, there it is. Ged UK (talk) 19:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Surely a rowing cox deserves a medal equally, if not more so, than a "diver." Daley isn't an athlete- he jumps off a platform, anyone with any nerve does that at central park most days- the cox guides a boat, and co-ordinates its movements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.242.189 (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the place for this discussion. I expect the IOC have message boards somewhere. Coxes get medals, so do divers. Until the IOC change that, there's nothing really to discuss as far as I can see. Ged UK (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't we get rid of the part that says "and was the youngest competitor at the games in any sport"? It doesn't have a citation, and its mostly believed that the cox was 13 when he competed. Here. Grungedude22 (talk) 16:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we're contradicting ourselves and the source I think! --Ged UK (talk) 16:45, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That comment was wrong, but not for the reason you are assuming, as it only referred to the 2008 games. Alex Middleton (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Who owns this page??

Hi, can anybody tell me who edits this page as I have some information that could be useful.

Please let me know by replying to piersz@hotmail.com

Thanks in advance. 09:26 & 09:27, 4 July 2008 User:213.38.166.131

Nobody 'owns' it, there are several editors who keep an eye on it and update it as appropriate. If you have any info that reliable and sourced, please feel free to add it, or leave it here (moving to bottom of page). Ged UK (talk) 12:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks for that. I work for a company called Sodexo and we are Tom's personal sponsor. I'd like to add a line saying:

- Tom signed a personal sponsorship deal with Sodexo, a leading food and facilities management services provider, on 1 June 2008. http://www.sodexo.co.uk/uken/Images/1%20June%20-%20Tom%20Daley_tcm15-145268.pdf

I will try again but I did add last week but it was removed.

Thanks for your help.

Piers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.38.166.131 (talk) 09:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

And I suspect that it would be removed again. I'm not sure that it's particularly notable, and many editors would see it as advertising. Ged UK (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I take your point, though it does typify how far Tom has come recently. I will speak to Tom and his manager to see if there is anything he would like to add.

Best, Piers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piersz (talk • contribs) 10:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

What it really needs is comment on notability from a reliable third party source (eg a newspaper), otherwise it's just Sodexo saying "we're his sponsor". And from a personal point of view, I think what shows how far he's come is that he's been selected for the Olympics, not that he's been sponsored! There are plenty of British Olympians who are notable who don't have sponsorship. --Ged UK (talk) 10:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are some links that may be of interest.

http://www.b2bm.biz/news/?groupId=&articleId=28395

http://www.insidethegames.com/show-news.php?id=2509

http://www.999eggbuckland.com/news/story/43081.html

http://www.facilitiesrecruit.co.uk/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piersz (talk • contribs) 15:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Let's see how long it lasts! Ged UK (talk) 19:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Renaming

• How come this article got renamed from Tom Daley (diver) to Thomas Daley (diver) without any discussion or notification? It appears that an unregistered editor appeared, made 27 edits in 80 minutes, then immediately put an entry on WP:Requested moves as an "uncontroversial move" without mentioning it here, and it was then moved 17 hours later without any regular editors having noticed the request. An examination of Google News shows that he is overwhelmingly referred to in the English-language media as "Tom" - I know there is also a US politician and a poet of the same name, but the current Google News figures, showing duplicates, are Tom Daley: 86, of which 78 refer to this person; Thomas Daley: 4, of which 1 refer to this person. I strongly recommend moving this back. -- Arwel (talk) 00:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
• I have moved it back. The "unregistered editor" is User:141.151.160.87 (Special:Contributions/141.151.160.87). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Good, glad it's back. Every reference I've seen to him he's called 'Tom', and I think that's by far the most likely initial search that people will do. Ged UK (talk) 07:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Height

Now I know this is trivia, but is he really this short? Therequiembellishere (talk) 02:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No, this would of been an old article. Going from previous reports in newspapers he's 5" 1, but with him being at his age he is growing all the time, so it's difficult to be accurate. Only last week one newspaper said 5" 1 , another 5" 2 and another 5" 4. I would say 5" 4 as it is probably the most recent. If anyone finds an accurate result then simply add it into the infobox with appropiate references. Thenthornthing (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Also: I've just added his height as 5" 2 cited from the only source which seems most recent (march 08)from thetimes. I'd sooner go from a British newspaper, which is more reliable than others anyhow. Thenthornthing (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll go with the cited source, be he only looked 5'2" last night. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd personally remove any mention of height. The Times article is most likely wrong now. Kids are growing all the time, and therefore height will mostly be inaccurate. With different sources saying different things, it's best not to include the info at all, especially as it is pretty trivial. how do you turn this on 23:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, was thinking thta myself, especiall now i've read through the times article completely now. Thenthornthing (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

His biography page on the Beijing2008 website says he's 156cm / 5'1": http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/BIO/Athlete/2/225172.shtml. I would assume that information on those pages is provided by the athletes themselves or some reliable source, but who knows. -213.246.72.23 (talk) 03:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I was really just asking the question. It is trivia, but then again there's a spot in the infobox for it. We should probably wait until he stops and then enter it in. Therequiembellishere (talk) 03:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

He is said to have grown three inches this year, making him 5'4" now. (92.12.87.168 (talk) 19:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC))

"is said' by who, and just as importantly, when? Ged UK (talk) 19:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Do you have a source for that? Actually nevermind; we really shouldn't be adding this to the article anyhow. His height will probably be changing constantly up till about the age of 18, so it would be pointless adding it. how do you turn this on 19:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

By a BBC commentator in the last 24 hours, but I wouldn't take it as gospel, as he only said that it meant that the height of 5'1" in his media guide was probably wrong. He didn't state what Tom's height was before he added the three inches. Alex Middleton (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is pointless trying to pin down his height, but it is not entirely trivial, as his height relative to that of his synchro partner is a factor in their performance, albeit a minor one. Alex Middleton (talk) 21:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Youngest at Beijing 2008 status

I have corrected this claim, as he wasn't the youngest athlete at the 2008 games. There were at least three swimmers who were younger, but he was the youngest competitor to make a final.

The official Beijing 2008 site also has a profile for one Indrek Jarvoya, supposedly an Estonian rower, and one day younger than Tom Daley. However, it is inconceivable that a 14 year old could be selected in rowing (a strength sport) except as a cox, and according to both the official Beijing 2008 site and Wikipedia, Estonia didn't participate in any of the coxed events. This is consistent with the fact that young Indrek isn't listed as having participated in any events on his profile. Furthermore, his name gets zero google hits, which is unbelievable for a bona fide 14 year old Olympian. Therefore I have assumed that his profile is invalid, some sort of technical error or joke by someone involved in the official site. Alex Middleton (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's just a misspelling. There are hits for Indrek Jarvoja. 91.109.149.132 (talk) 20:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Media impact

I think this article should say something about the impact Daley has had in the media, especially in the UK. According to google trends, he was searched for about three times as often during the Olympics as GB's triple gold medallist Chris Hoy or our top female Olympian Rebecca Adlington, but mentioning that would be original research. If anyone has a link to a media piece commenting on how much the other media have taken him up, perhaps that could be quoted. Alex Middleton (talk) 14:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Full name

Someone keeps adding his full name to the article. The reference doesn't back this up, and isn't relevant in the article. I've removed it, again. how do you turn this on 23:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I have added a reference for his full name, as it is customary to include someone's full name in his article. Kman543210 (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

That's better. That's all that was needed. The person who restored it without a reference referred to my removal as vandalism. We have to be very careful on BLPs, especially those of children with what information to include, and if it isn't referenced, it should go. how do you turn this on 17:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Full names are about as basic as encyclopedic information gets. The reference to vandalism may not have been polite, but it was understandable. How you can think that disclosing his middle name makes him more vulnerable to perverts boggles the mind. It also boggles the mind that so many people are totally obsessed with the production of footnotes for their own sake, rather than with improving the quality of articles. Greg Grahame (talk) 22:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

British/English Vandalism

We all clearly need to come together and reach a consensus as to weather we call him British of English as both are technically correct and people keep switching them! Highfields (talk) (contribs, review) 11:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I saw some guidelines on this somewhere, I'll see if I can find them. I would generally say British, because he competes for Britain in the Olympics, and I believe most international competitions, which for a sportsman I would have thought would have been the best indicator. --Ged UK (talk) 12:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe that I reverted this once back to English after someone changed it to British; not because I had some long thought process for it, but probably because the person changed it without an edit summary. Like the above poster, I don't have the guidelines off hand, but I believe it is common practice to put someone's nationality first in the introduction rather than a sub-national description. Technically this would be British rather than English since people in the UK hold British citizenship. I know that many would argue that English/Scotland/Wales are countries/nations in their own right, but just like the above poster said, he competes for the UK and not for England in the Olympics. I know people try to make the changes from Spanish to Galician/Catalan/Basque in those articles, but if we want to remain consistent with other countries, it should probably be British. We wouldn't see a Canadian be introduced as an Ontarian or an American as a Californian. Kman543210 (talk) 12:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the Canadian/US example is that helpful, sadly, because they are constituent states (broadly) rather than nations, and sub-nation is a horribly loaded term (though I know where you're coming from) that would probably cause more problems. --Ged UK (talk) 12:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I found it, though it's not actually a guideline, but an essay. Nevertheless, you can read it here. Essentially, there is no clear consensus across WP (unsurprisingly) and the talk pages get rather heated! Of particular relevance is the Changing an existing UK nationality section. This basically says don't change from the consensus without a good reason. So yes, we need to agree the consensus here first, then change (or not) the article as required. --Ged UK (talk) 12:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I reviewed the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) article, and here is what it states: Nationality – In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the talk page and archives.)...Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.

When I go to the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) page, it does state at the top that there is a consensus (I'm too lazy to read the entire page). Here is part of what it says:
3a. Wherever possible, provide evidence of a person's nationality in a note.
3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note.
3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as birth and long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.
3d. If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated. No assumption regarding a person's nationality based on his or her place of birth or residence should be made.
3e. British nationals – The United Kingdom is comprised of four constituent countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Although persons from these countries hold British nationality, there is consensus that if usage note 3b or 3c applies, a person should be described as "English", "Northern Irish (or Irish)", "Scottish" or "Welsh", as the case may be. In other cases, the person should be described as "British".
3f. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.

What I understand from this is that consensus was that British should be used unless there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his nationality should be indicated. So if there is no evidence that Tom Daley prefers to be called English, he should be called British in the introduction. That's what I understood from this, but like I said, I didn't read the entire talk page. Kman543210 (talk) 12:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree; unless we have verifiable, reliable sources that state Tom is a English nationalist, he should be listed as British. The example given in the essay I linked to above is Sean Connery, who is a well-known Scottish Nationalist, and should be listed as Scottish rather than, or at least before, British. --Ged UK (talk) 12:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying that it is alright to amend biographical articles on the basis of the views of the subject, so as to make them reflect the world as the subject would like it to be, rather than the facts? That sounds like a slippery slope to me. Greg Grahame (talk) 22:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• I also agree, I'm glad I brought it up because it's been a very productive debate Highfields (talk) (contribs, review) 12:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It has said English for a long time. He will compete for England at the 2010 Commonwealth Games, indeed he would have done so in 2006 if he had been old enough. He has competed in ASA championships, which are English championships, not British championships. Thus not mentioning England looks like bias to me. I think you will struggle to find Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish people who are not identified as such, so treating English people differently reveals systemic bias. At the very least, both English and British should be mentioned in the intro, similar to the way Andy Murray is currently dealt with. Greg Grahame (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yes but his legal nationality is British and without any indication from him as to a preferance that's the way it should stay Highfields (talk, contribs, review) 18:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)