Talk:Walid Shoebat

This is borderline. If I believed in vfd, I would nominate it. It's little more than an ad for this guy's website. --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 15:54, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Ok Ed , I have therefore expanded this article quite a bit.--CltFn 02:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Expanded with information like "Walid is part of a growing movement of former Muslims who are taking a stand against Islam and it's terrorist tactics." and words like "PLO terrorist". How very NPOV. Please read WP:NPOV. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 02:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a citation for interested readers to verify that assertion. And yes he was a PLO terrorist, that is a fact which he admits. Unless you do not consider putting explosives in bread with the intent to blow up children terrorism. --CltFn 03:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Do we need to see his ID card?

The very first line "the assumed name of the owner of the website Shoebat.com" is unfortunate wording. This sounds like "an imaginary character". Then, the article goes from bad to worse. We say "This biographical entry is based primarily on the information provided on his website", even though a half-a-dozen of ext. links is provided. I think we should use the word pseudonym and get rid of POV. This guy is real, he travels and lectures. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 00:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes he is very real indeed, as in other free thinker articles covered on Wikipedia , there are those who wish that he was not real and who seem dedicated to blanking them out.--CltFn 12:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

He is a fraud, according to conservative Israeli newspaper Jersulem Post: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1206632362598&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull#

Read for example, the following excrept from the article:

"...Shoebat's claim to have bombed Bank Leumi in Bethlehem is rejected by members of his family who still live in the area, and Bank Leumi says it has no record of such an attack ever taking place.

His relatives, members of the Shoebat family, are mystified by the notion of "Walid Shoebat" being an assumed name. And the Walid Shoebat Foundation's working process is less than transparent, with Shoebat's claim that it is registered as a charity in the state of Pennsylvania being denied by the Pennsylvania State Attorney's Office.

Shoebat's claim to have been a terrorist rests on his account of the purported bombing of Bank Leumi. But after checking its files, the bank said it had no record of an attack on its Bethlehem branch anywhere in the relevant 1977-79 period.

Shoebat told The Jerusalem Post that this could be because the bank building was robustly protected with steel and that the attack may have caused little damage.

Asked whether word of the bombing made the news at the time, he said, "I don't know. I didn't read the papers because I was in hiding for the next three days." (In 2004, he had told Britain's Sunday Telegraph: "I was terribly relieved when I heard on the news later that evening that no one had been hurt or killed by my bomb.")

Shoebat could not immediately recall the year, or even the time of year, of the purported bombing when talking to the Post by phone from the US. After wavering, he finally settled for the summer of 1977."

Moreover:

"...Asked by the Post whether the Walid Shoebat Foundation is a registered charity, Shoebat replied that it is registered in Pennsylvania.

The Pennsylvania State Attorney's office said it had no record of a charity registered under this name.

Questioned further, Shoebat said it was registered under a different name, but that he was not aware of the details, which are handled by his manager.

"I remain separate to the running of the charity so that I am not constrained by church rules," he explained, adding that the organization's connection to certain churches meant it would be difficult for him to speak to secular audiences if he became too involved in running it.

Dr. Joel Fishman, of the Allegany County Law Library in Pennsylvania, expressed doubts about this donation process. If the money were being given to a registered charity, the charity would have to make annual reports to the state and federal government on how it was being spent, he noted." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.11.122 (talk) 22:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The problems with anon's version

The major problem it starts in a bad faith and goes on to worse.

• is pro-zionist author. -- nothing wrong with being a pro-Zionist author, but this characterization is a severe POV compared to is a Palestinian author and former Muslim and a former PLO terrorist who captured international attention by converting to Christianity and becoming a ardent critic of Islam and a supporter of Israel
• His biographical entry is based primarily on the information provided on his website. -- this is just silly to say in the article with a dozen or so of independent external links.
• His original name is not publicly known, and his story is uncorroborated and not otherwise verifiable. -- another silly phrase. See the section above about his ID card.
• What's the problem with the image?
• While praised by some for his pro-Israel stand, some charge that he is motivated by profit. -- Proof please. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 04:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Good obseravtions. Also observe that anonymous editor is an infidel-hating muslim. He doesn't need facts or anything of the sort to "prove" anything.--Nosharia 13:31, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Gren's changes

Just to explain my changes.

• I removed the pictures because when I saw the argument I figured the best way to sort it out was to make CltFn source his images and give copyright tags. He sourced one but couldn't provide the copyright tags so I deleted them as I told him I would. If there is going to be conflict over images then they should be well sourced. If he can add the images with sources and legitimate copyright tags then they can stay. He said he e-mailed Shoebat so when the results of that get back he might have permission for that one image. For the Fox screenshot he needs to show where he got it and why it's fair use.

• "growing" -- Is the movement growing? Is it really a movement? I think we'd need some good sourcing on that besides Walid's website to actually discuss if this is a valid, real, and growing movement. There was no legitimate sociological study or anything of the kind cited.

• Husseini's alliance with the Nazis is of no consequence to this article. If anything it's trying to defame a man's name... when it really was not the largest part of his life nor the most relevant.

• NPOV, because of the arguments between the editors I think it's safe to say there is a neutrality dispute. My biggest concern in this regard is the copious number of quotes. It makes this more dramatic than anything else in my book. What is the use of the anecdote about Arab-state's propaganda versus the reality of the Israeli Army's success? I'm not sure... but, things like that should be discussed.

About the edit changes between Anonymous Editor and Cltfn... well, I don't know exactly. I haven't taken the time to see what comes from Shoebat's site and what comes from independent sources. To AE, some of this must be credible because BBC reports on it... so we can't ignore it saying it comes from Shoebat's site. (Humus is right about that) But, I don't know if all of it comes from credible sources... and you must discern between what does and what doesn't. gren グレン 04:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

"Culture of Hate and Barbarism?"

There must be a more NPOV way to express this; as it stands it seems rather racist and suggests that the dislike in Palestine for Jews is just an outburts of unprovoked and irrational anger and not a predictable response to living under occupation for six decades. I mean, objectively, we should dislike prejudice in whatever form and seek to cleanse ourselves of it but we must exercise charity in our understanding of the roots of prejudice. Cant about 'the culture of hate and barbarism' only serves to obscure the underlying socio-political problems that Palestinians face. --لقمانLuqman 01:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC) How is it racist?' by saying the truth. He was once a PLO terrorist and believed that propagasnda but now knows it's false. He is not racist. that is a false accusation by people who want to hide the truth. Palestinians do unprovoked attacks on the jews. even if the Israeli occupation had no justification, should the Jews really suffer from it? Palestinians are taught to hate Jews. That is the truth. Unlike you, Shoebat got an inside look at Islamic terrorism [not tha tall muslims hate terrorists. He just wants Palestinians to think for themselves. The Palestinian attacks against jewish civilians [including suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks against Israeli Jewish civilians] are unprovoked. Palestiniant errorism existed before the occupation did. The Palestinians attacking someone for being j'ewish is racist.-Dendoi Sunday 1:28 AM January 28, 2007

Will Youmens

Someone keeps inserting the phrase "anti-Israel activist, former spokesperson for the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), and rapper (under the name Iron Sheik)" in the section about Will Youmens's CounterPunch article about Shoebat. This looks as if it's intended as an ad hominem attack on Youmens, discrediting him by referring to his political beliefs instead of addressing the substance of his claims about Shoebat. However, if other users think that this phrase is justified and relevant, I won't object to it being restored.--GagHalfrunt 18:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

--- I think it should be kept. I mean, I have no idea who the guy is and his biases should be laid on the table if there is no article on this man. I say restore it and then keep it. Either that or delete the part about him, I mean, Will Youmens? Who the hell is this guy? Why should I care what some guy I have never heard of before and who is obviously extremely biased thinks about Walid Shoebat?

And I personally am against Shoebat so it is nothing personal. I think the man is a bigot who is using crimes he has committed in the past to his advantage which I think is equally reprhensible. Why should a man profit off of crimes he committed just because his version of events fits our version of reality in the West? Just putting that out there.128.138.26.42 03:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Criticism notes

"An article on Electronic Intifada, a pro-Palestinian website, describes him as a member of a "fanatic" sect (apparently referring to Evangelical Christianity) who makes "blatantly racist declarations against Islam"

I wasn't aware Islam was a race.72.152.206.218 07:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Walid Shoebat a fraud?

Interesting video that shows some contradictions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RehZY6tHcA

Not to mention the New York Times article 'Speakers at Academy Said to Make False claims'

The Air Force Academy was criticized by Muslim and religious freedom organizations for playing host on Wednesday to three speakers who critics say are evangelical Christians falsely claiming to be former Muslim terrorists. [...] Academic professors and others who have heard the three men speak in the United States and Canada said some of their stories border on the fantastic[.] [...] They also question how three middle-aged men who claim they were recruited as teenagers or younger could have been steeped in the violent religious ideology that only became prevalent in the late 1980s.

<eleland/talkedits> 09:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, the Jerusalem Post article that makes clear the inaccuracies of his claims: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1206632362598&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Menaus (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I know this may sound hardly unbiased, but my honest opinion is that Walid Shoebat might be mentally unstable, a fraud wanting to extort naive people into funnelling money to his unexisting "foundation". The hatred with which he talks about Islam and Palestinians is not normal of a sane person, such huge variations in attitude mark a person that may be suffering from clinic mania. Again, these comments are in no way intended to be introduced in the article itself, but are merely a personal opinion. Anyone with divergent views is free to express them.

Sufitul (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Debbie Schlussel questions Shoebat's credentials

Enough, Walid Shoebat: Why is Sean Hannity's Fake Terrorist Harassing Me?]--Kitrus (talk) 06:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)