Talk:Halloween

Please Read This

Yesterday this article's talk page got a lot of query and additions (it was Halloween after-all). That said, I have consolidated about fifteen categories under the "To Do List", "Additional Proposals", and "Noticed Mistakes & Discussion Thereof" categories. I have made sub-categories or starred each previous category. If you still believe your post requires a full category, please move it and then expand. It was not my intention to insult anyone's ideas or downgrade them to sub-categories because I do not think they are important. I just felt like twelve categories in one day that could easily be consolidate to three would make easier reading and analysis for all. Thanks, (Nicolaususry 14:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

To Do List

Here is a list of things that need to be done to this article. If you do not have time to fix it yourself but want to leave a notation for someone else, leave it here.

New Gallup Poll

A new Gallup poll on Halloween has statistical information that can be used as citations for existing parts of the article, or to add new information to the article. In particular, the poll's finding that Christians and non-Christians celebrate the holiday in virtually the same numbers. — Walloon 06:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Dark history of the eve - Although not often documented... and certainly not a popular thought among the Christian majority... Halloween has a very dark history in some parts of the world. Historically, some areas of the world considered the Catholic vigil of the day before All Saints' Day to be a time to cleanse the community of anything which would sully the holiday. It was therefore an excuse to roust any non-Christians :(pagans, Jews, Gypsies) in the community or nearby, an excuse for pogroms. Costumes are a means of hiding one's identity after all. (What? You thought the KKK came up with the idea of wearing sheets while harassing people they did not like?) And going house to house, extorting bribes to prevent vandalism ("trick or treat") is also tied to this.

A little bit of this history should sneak into this page so we're not all fooled into thinking this has always been candy and fun for the kids. Not so long ago in "the old country," this was a deadly serious business. Signed - Dan in Lexington, MA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.113.144 (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Why you care? for me (and maybe for others) this is just a party in wich childrens ask for candies and teenagers use to have theme parties. There's nottin wrong in give a candy to a little boy and theres nottin wrong in hang out with someone wearing a monster outfit.

It's just a plan to make people spend money in candies and costumes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.40.19 (talk) 23:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammar Suggestion

In the History section, the sentence stating: "The festivals would frequently involve bonfires, where the bones of slaughtered livestock were thrown" should instead read "The festivals would frequently involve bonfires, into which the bones of slaughtered livestock were thrown." Thanks, Lexrst (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC) I fixed it. (Videogamer765)

United States public service campaign?

On "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me," the NPR word-oriented quiz show, it was stated that the most successful public-service campaign in history was one that took place in the 1930s, encouraging children to go from door to door and beg for candy on Hallowe'en, instead of committing pranks and vandalism. Interesting if true... deserves more investigation... Dpbsmith (talk) 10:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Needed

• Find me a source for the sentence "It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European Pagan traditions, until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 to November 1." Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
• Find good sources on the actual HISTORY of Halloween. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

While I have not yet found any actual sources, I do want to point out that when I googled origins of Halloween, all of the other websites out there seem to agree that it was Pope Boniface IV, not the Pope Gregory's, who instituted All Saints' Day as Nov 1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.84.75.28 (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Archiving of talk pages needed

Please would some editor familiar with the article archive any appropriate threads? Thank you! Benjiboi 21:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Stormin' Foreman 23:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Additional Proposals

If you have a suggestion for this article but need clarification from someone else who knows more about the subject before moving it to the "To Do List" first, then please place it here for consideration.

• Bonfires and fireworks are illegal in Ireland? First I've heard of it. I'm adding a to those assertions. Markfiend 13:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I propose that Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" be added to the list of fiction. "October is a rare month for boys" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.191.155.98 (talk) 00:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I propose that "fear" be added under "black" on the "orange and black color associations table". I am nowhere near an expert on this subject, and would like feedback on this suggestion before I make any change. Thanks, (Nicolaususry 18:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

• changing the assertion that there is no proof that Christians purposefully turned Pagan holidays into Christian ones. "In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship." ~http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hythlae (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• locking this article due to recent vandalism?

The Pope Gregory letter does not mention adopting pagan holidays. On the contrary, it specifically suggests that pagans who are concerned about not having their traditional feasts should instead have feasts on Christian holy days. "Let them therefore, on the day of the dedication of their churches, or on the feast of the martyrs whose relics are preserved in them, build themselves huts around their one-time temples and celebrate the occasion with religious feasting." He mentions nothing about tree worship. He does recommend converting temples into churches but first removing all pagan idols etc. Letter here http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/mellitus.html Dmottram (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Noticed Mistakes & Discussion Thereof

Incorrect Pronunciation

• The pronunciation for púicíní is most certainly not 'poocheeny', but rather 'pookeeny'. This appears to be a confusion with the Italian name Pucini. In fact púicíní is rooted from 'púca' meaning a variety of fairy, an -íní is the plural derivative meaning 'small fairies'. References: Púca (Wikipedia), Games and Other Activities (Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• There's another problem, Scotland is not indented properly in the "Around the World" section which also throw off the bullet points that follow it. 82.11.186.14 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• "In the ninth century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunrise, in accordance with the Florentine calendar" -- as following the link confirms, the Church measured the day starting at sunset, not sunrise! Please update.199.43.19.222 11:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Irish-American Appropriation - As usual, we see another instance in this article of the general phenomenon where anything to which the term "Celtic" can be attached is missappropriated on behalf of the Irish, presumably by misty-eyed Americans indulging in their customary wish-fulfillment 217.37.221.49 11:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• History Reversion - I'm reverting the history intro to an earlier version. The current one originally added by Copeland2119 sounds like neo-pagan fluffiness. I've never heard of "the Celtic Goddess Eiseria" and it was unsourced. Earthnut 06:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• This article is not alone on the web assuming that Celtic = Irish. General web sources state that Halloween is derived from an ancient Celtic festival, Samhain, which was celebrated in all Celtic lands. There is little evidence that the festival is a Celtic festival at all - and still less an Irish festival. The more likely source of Halloween is derived from The three day Catholic festival - All Hallows Eve, All Hallows Day (or all Saints Day) and All Souls Day. At the time of reformation in the sixteenth century, the Protestants denied the Catholic belief in purgatory and the idea that living humans could help dead souls get to heaven through their prayer. The still very catholic populous were still understandably concerned about the souls of their departed relatives and the whole festival was thrust underground. It is not surprising that the holiday took on associations with the occult or demonic given the strong link to the dead and the strong disapproval of the Church of England. Once the connection with praying for dead ancestors in purgatory was lost, the evening took on more sinister tones in the popular imagination. The dead souls who were welcomed home on All Hallows Eve in medieval Catholic times came to be seen as restless spirits to be feared. The early Halloween was probably brought across to what is now the US by the earliest of migrants from England - including all the paraphernalia we now associate with the festival - jack o'lanterns, trick or treat (derived from the practice of providing soul cakes to the poorest in the community). Halloween as we see it today is a true American tradition - irrespective of it's original source! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 (talk) 00:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional Information (Ireland)

In Ireland in particular the West we used to sing a song when doing the "trick or treating". It goes as follows: "Christmas is coming and the geese are getting fat, please put a penny in the old mans hat, if you haven't got a penny a h'penney will do, if you haven't got a h'penny God Bless you." This would be sung when the door bell was rung and the owner of the house opened to see a collection of children dressed up as witches, wizards etc. After all the rounds of the houses were done we used to then empty our collection bags and begin to count how many sweets, nuts and indeed pennies we had collected. The night would finish off with us going down with ma and da to see the bonfire.

Hey! I remember that rhyme...but the Dublin version ended "if you haven't got a h'penny then God help you." (Sarah777 12:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

That song was also traditionally sung in England (and perhaps other places). I don't know where it originated.--81.153.87.45 21:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

As a kid in England I used to sing "Sunday Bloody Sunday" - that must mean that this song is an English song. This childs nursery ryhme is certainly of English origin (hence the ha'penny referenc).

Upper age of trick-or-treating

"A child usually "grows out of" trick-or-treating at around age twelve. Trick-or-treating by teenagers is accepted but generally discouraged by those handing out candy. Teenagers and adults instead often celebrate Halloween with costume parties, bonfire parties, staying home to give out candy, listening to Halloween music, watching horror movies or scaring people. However, lately teenagers, especially girls, "grow out" of trick or treating when they go to college. It is beginning to be considered "cool" to go trick or treating for a minimal amount of time (one or two hours) in large groups and in costumes and then head to a party with a more revealing costume."

This whole section is defiantly NOT wikipedia standard and defiantly needs revision —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 19:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"Defiantly" or "definitely"? — Walloon 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Both!(Sarah777 21:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Defiantly... it seems like it is a teenager telling other teenager what to do to be cool, it just doesn't seem mature. The first part is okay though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 17:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, even though it is "immature" to have that article there, it seems pointless as well as it doesn't really have any significance to the article. If there was a law against going trick or treating then maybe lol. I am going to delete this unless anyone has any objections? Signed: pa-merynaten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.224.245 (talk) 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so - in the UK, most people who trick or treat are over the age of 12. Get your facts write Esc luver 17:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts — right? — Walloon 18:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth adding that in the UK, trick-or-treaters are as likely to be met with verbal abuse as candy due to the widely held belief that we in the UK are not "effin' yanks" and neither are the trick-or-treaters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.238.252 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Similarly in Australia! Lyn50 20:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is well worth adding actually. In fact I don't like the way the article makes it sound as though "Many Australian families are celebrating Halloween now". Do any Australians actually know any families who decorate up their house and things? All I ever saw was a few kids hoping to score free sweets out of it and you're right, these people will often be met by abuse 70.189.213.149 (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this men that I as a young 60-year-old can´t go trick-or treating? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.176.237.1 (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"Before indoor plumbing was ubiquitous, tipping over or displacing outhouses was a popular form of vandalism." As most outhouses in England were (and still are) made of brick, this statement seems suspect, to say the least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.32.11 (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Does this "mean" or "men"? LOL. Seriously though, in the part of Canada where I live, kids usually go trick-or-treating for their last time at around 13. We really should include the upper limit for different countries, but we would also need a reliable source. Usually adult costumes are for those who either accompany their children or for ones who give out candy, but I'm not sure. Can we have a colour-coded map of where the upperlimitage for people TOTing during Halloween? That would be helpful. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

FA

October 31'st is coming up fast, i think we should get this article up to FA status! EvilHom3r 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It would (will, if people are game) take a lot of work. This article needs a lot of help. We would also most likely be working under semi-protected status, as we're now entering the time when this article gets hit hard with vandalism. Just look at the logs from last year, to see what we're in for. I'm potentially game, but just sayin'. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to post that same suggestion. I think that it might be possible to reach GA status before October 31. We need to get to work on it quickly. I'm going to post some suggestions and I will need everyone willing to try to work fast to get the suggestions done. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to help tidy up this article, but I can't because when I log in the article is still locked. I think it's because most of the time i forget to log in and all my contributions just show my IP address. Anyway, does anyone know how I can go about applying to become an "established" user or do I simply have to remember to log in from now on? Dennisc24 17:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, You must always log in, otherwise Wikipedia can't be sure if you're established or not. The page is protected from IP editors because they account for most vandalism and because, since it's Halloween, a lot of vandals will want to add nonsense to this article. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"Human Sacrifices"

I have neither the necessary privileges nor the relevant knowledge to edit a page on Halloween, but the section fittingly titled "Human Sacrifices" is very much below Wikipedia standards. In particular, the sentence regarding one Rowan Williams looks like some sort of personal attack rather than factual accounting. It would be helpful for the community if someone were to bring that section up to Wikipedia standards (new title and all), if indeed it belongs as a section at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeSpeakSunshine (talk • contribs) 06:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That section has been reverted for copyvio reasons - it would have been removed for NPOV reasons otherwise. DenisMoskowitz 12:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hallowe'en in Scotland

The town of Kilmarnock in Scotland is (as far as I know) the only place in the world to celebrate Hallowe'en on the last Friday of October instead of the traditional 31st of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.185.35 (talk) 10:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Night Of Light - reclaiming Hallowe'en for the church

May I suggest adding the following text and link to the Religious Perspectives paragraph?

In recent years, some Roman Catholics in Great Britain have sought to reclaim Hallowe'en for the church by holding Night Of Light vigils across the country. This has had the endorsement of Bishop Ambrose and an official Roman Catholic Exorcist in Great Britain.

Claim surely, rather than reclaim?! (Sarah777 19:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC))

Mischief Night

"In parts of England, there is a similar festival called holy day which falls on the November 4. During the celebration, children play a range of "tricks" (ranging from minor to more serious) on adults. One of the more serious "tricks" might include the unhinging of garden gates (which were often thrown into ponds, or moved far away). In recent years, such acts have occasionally escalated to extreme vandalism, sometimes involving street fires.[11]"

I've no idea how "holy day" crept in here (vandalism?) but the reference is to Mischief Night. I recall this from my own North Yorkshire childhood, and the reference in the footnote [11] links to a BBC report on Mischief Night.

Also I don't think "festival" (or for that matter "celebration") is the appropriate word, but rather "tradition". It is certainly not approved of or encouraged by adults.89.243.107.71 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree that "festival" isn't the right word, though not entirely sure what is. But I find that the date tends to vary for different parts of the country. it seems that in most of Southern England it's largely unheard of, whilst in Yorkshire it falls on November 4th (as above), whereas in the north-west (well, Liverpool at least, but I think most of the region is the same) it's the night before Hallowe'en. Possibly (/probably?) other variations too.Hengler 00:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Halloween in Pastafarian Religion

According to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, page 124, mentioned Halloween as an important Pastafarian holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bossudenotredame (talk • contribs) 06:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.159.231.94 (talk) 03:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Dispute

I know that I will be hated by some of you for calling the popular `wisdom` into question (and by some just for being a Catholic) but I must dispute the statement in this article that says that Halloween ORIGINATED as a pagan holiday. This belief, though widely held, doesn`t seem logical when the facts are considered. I do not say that I know better as of this writting but I would very much like to see more support for this statement before I would accept it and I would like to see it reconciled with other facts that seem to contradict it.

Let us consider that the very name of the holiday suggest that the holiday originated as a Christian holiday. In that Halloween is a simplification of All Hallow`s Eve, it seems ot reveal that Halloween is an after affect and is not the actuall substantive holiday; that distinction being held by the actual All Hallow`s Day. The very fact that it is held as an Eve, thus a vigil or vespers celebration is uniquelly Christian and goes counter to what we know of the Pagans. When we compare the Substantives of the Pagan Holiday with the actual Christian holiday, we find they are not technically celebrated on the same day and that sharing an evening for a few hours is actually an accident. Again I don`t claim to know better absolutely but it does seem to contradict the pagan origination statement.

We must also consider that All Saints Day was promulgated by a Pope living in Souther Europe, Italy, and thus would likely not have knowledge of the pagan practices of Nothern Europe, least of all Britain. If the Pope did know about the Pagan holiday, it is likely that he wouldn`t have cared or let that influence his decision. If the Pope did know and did care, it would be likely that instead of supporting the Pagan holiday, he would instead give Christians better or at least seemingly more important things to do then participate. Of course an reading of the writings of the popes in regards to this holiday would probably enlighten this matter a lot. It does seem very unlikely that the Pope would put the Christian holiday the day after if his intention was to suppress or suplant the Pagan holiday.

We must also consider that All Saints day and thus also the vigil the night before is a major Catholic Holy Day of Obligation that is celebrated the world over with very similar practices in majority Catholic countries. The Pagan holiday mentioned certainly was not so pervasive or successful. It would also appear that while the Pagan practices influence Christians in English speaking countries, they did not influence Catholic Practices in other countries. The actions involved with the Pagan holiday seem to be of a different nature from the Catholic celebration. The Pagan holiday described seems to have more in common with the English speaking holiday of ThanksGiving then with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve.

We can compare the results and history of All Hallows Eve with that of Valentines day and see some inconsistancies. Valentine`s day specifically did want to replace a local pagan custom and thus put the observance of it on the same day and was local in character. All Saints day likely was not intended to replace a Pagan custom but create a Christian one to fill a place on the Liturgical Calendar. Thus we see that it was not put on the same day in actuallity, the customs do not seem directly related, the holiday was promulgated to be observed by all and was not local in Character. Also, where as Valentines day sought to supress a practice and thus discouraged the continued Pagan practice in favor of the Christian one; All Saints Day it would seem was influenced by the Pagan holiday in those local areas that had it and did not discourage them.

It seems to me, based on these facts and logic that All Saints Day, in origin was Christian and by accident was influenced by a Pagan holiday in those areas that had it before but in those areas only. The two holidays thus would be seperate and distinct. It doesn`t seem likely that one followed from the other. If the Christians really did want to replace the Pagan holiday, they would have to me put the new holiday on the same day, or the day before, not the day after, it would have been local in character not universal and that there would be a reinterpretation on the practices of the Pagans in a Christian way instead of the practices being substantly different.

Clearly some work and research on this matter needs to be done. I would be happy to do some of it but as I am the one raising the dispute and that I am obviously Catholic, I doubt that any of you would believe me if I did it so I simply ask that the caretaker of this page seek to reconsile these facts. As the page stands how, I must doubt its factuality and dispute its contents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.30.159 (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

All Saints Eve is surely not Celtic

I wonder why the unsigned contributor is so shy. Halloween can definitively not be an old celtic Festival. Compare this article (which claims that Halloween is the continuation of an original "Samhain") with the article on Samhain where obviously some more knowledgeable people have been active and have a look at All Saints Day , too!.

• All Saints Day is a Festival that has nothing to do with northern European Pagans.
• Nobody knows when Samhain took place (if it was a fixed festival at all)
• The claim that an ancient Celtic Samhain should have to to with a remembrance of the dead is unfounded
• Halloween has come about as the Eve of All Saints Day - like other celebrations on the Eve of high festivals of which the start of Christmas celebration on December 24 in many countries may be the most prominent
• Halloween-Traditions related to fear of ghosts etc may rise out of some folklore which can not be traced to exact dates and places but are far more easily explained stemming from a popular reception of the ecclesiastical All-Saints-theme than from alleged traditions going back a millenium. Such age-old traditions are a very popular theme but just unprovable like Eastre's Easter or a Germanic "Christmas"
• Instead of trying to deduct Halloween from the old Celts (who have the disadvantage that a bit too much is known about them which contradicts the lore) - why not connect it to the Flying Spaghetti Monster ? Leaves mor space for phantasy and explanations, definitively useful idea that one! --Kipala 07:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you be any more transparent? Take your obvious Christian ignorance out of wikipedia. Im sorry that you find it hard to believe that traditions and days of celebration found in Christian sects come originally from pagans and non-christians, but you are going to have to suck it up and learn that because your pastor told you it was true...it dosnt make it. Weve had to deal with you on the other pages about this same ignorant idiocy, and for the umpteenth time we are going to start calling you on it. - Jh Ty —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.59.154 (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Time to call the celtic origins people. If someone believes that Hallowe'en is in fact derived from a celtic feast, they are invited to post links to the ORIGINAL source evidence which demonstrates that:

A/ Samhain actually took place in pre-Christian times on 31st Oct.

B/ That it was a religious festival.

As far as I know, the only documentary evidence for Samhain feasts is in Irish legends first written down in Mediaeval times and which do not mention any specifically religious nature to said feast.Dmottram (talk) 16:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Rebuttal

Hallowe'en is certainly derived from Samhain. Much in the way the Catholic Church have always taken existing traditions and 'rebranded' them. Take a look at Celtic Crosses; they are crosses identifying with the Sun. Christmas Day - Mythras's feast day. Saint Brigid's day - The Celtic feast of Imbolg and related back to the Celtic god Bríd. There are countless examples of this type of overlay. All Saints Day is the holy day, Hallowe'en is just a rebranding of an existing festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with rebuttal

Samain is indeed the feast that halloween is based on. Samain lasts for twelve days beginning on Nov 1st - it is the night before this "Oice Samain" - that the ancient Celtic God Dagda and the Goddess Morrigan mated. It was the Celtic new year and the beginning of the dark winter and the ancient tombs were said to open and reveal the dead to all. The Christians took over the pagan feast day - instead of trying to wipe it out - and called it Hallows and Hallows Eve for the night before. For reference on this and other Celtic religious feasts see "In Search of Ancient Ireland" PBS series and book. 69.143.82.178 23:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Explain please

All of this is well and good but the factual problems still exist outside of personal opinions. Why would a Pope who did not know of the pagan holiday in question while living in a completely different part of the continent create a holiday to replace one that as mentioned he didn:t know exist and make it a Holy Day of Obligation for all Catholics in the world? I just don:t see the Pope knowing or even caring if he did know. This business between Holloween and the pagan day seems like just a big coincidence. As such it would be better to say that Holloween was affected by pagan customs in English speaking countries but not outside of them. In origin, the topic here, of Holloween certainly looks entirely Christian. Plus, in the documents that created the observance of All Saint`s Day, we see nothing about this pagan holiday at all. There is not even one line or a hint that the Pope ever knew about the other holiday. Again, if there are actual facts that are being left out then please bring them foward but opinions don:t count as facts. You can want to believe that Halloween is pagan till the cows come home but if it isn:t true then it just isn:t true and the article needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.40.84 (talk) 08:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Rebuttal

It could just as easily be asked how you know that the Pope had no knowledge of this festival. Samhain was celebrated in PreChristian Ireland and other Celtic regions. There are an enormous amount of Christian festivals that are overlooked...if anything it is Hallowe'en that has continued the association with All Saints/Souls rather than vice versa. As is well documented the spread of Christianity has often taken place by surplanting local traditions and beliefs with Christian ideals. As mentioned above Saint Brigid is merely a repackaged Bríghid from Góidealic Celtic tradition. Also please note the correct spelling as Hallowe'en and not Holloween. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Lunchtime meal called "dinner" in Ireland

I have to say, living in Ireland (Dublin specifically) that I find that saying the lunchtime meal is called "dinner" is very dubious, and an over-generalisation. It certainly is in some parts (such as my mother's home, Leitrim) but in Dublin, I would rarely hear it referred to as anything other than "lunch" (except by people from other regions). Now while that's Dublin, it is important to note that the Greater Dublin Area accounts for just under 40% of the State's population (hardly negligable). Can someone provide a proper source for this statement, because I highly doubt one exists. - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 23:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Qualified it to "sometimes called dinner" with appropriate citation. Valenciano 08:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good. The use of dinner for the midday meal was almost universal in Ireland till maybe 20-30 years ago. But certainly today that usage in Dublin is rare, agreed. (Sarah777 09:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

the time dinner for the midday meal is a common working class term thoughout the British Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.70.60 (talk) 01:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes Night Not Celebrated

It may be useful to explain why Guy Fawkes night is not celebrated in Ireland. It is because Fawkes was supportive of the Roman Catholic ascendancy in England at the time, and as such, his capture and subsequent execution are not celebrated by Roman Catholics in the UK (this tradition has fallen by the wayside in recent years since the historical context of Bonfire Night becomes less relevant) - this tradition of non-celebration by RCs is common throughout the UK, but Ireland being predominantly Roman Catholic, it is more marked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 (talk) 10:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Response to - Guy Fawkes Night Not Celebrated

It makes more sense to consider that Guy Fawkes Night is only a British tradition. Why would it be present in any other country? the acts of a British man towards te British Houses of Parliament are of little consequence outside of Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 15:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Response to - Guy Fawkes Night Not Celebrated

At the time of the Gunpowder Plot (1606) Ireland was part of Britain, so it is relevant to speak about its celebration in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 (talk) 10:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Why are we even talking about Guy Fawkes on a page about Halloween? They have nothing to do with each other. The historical reference under "England", where Guy Fawkes for a time replaced Halloween is okay (although probably needs a citation) and possibly the bit under "Caribbean". But that half paragraph under "Religious Perspectives" is just rambling off topic. Ray Ellis 10:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

And as it was never celebrated in Ireland speculation as to why is WP:OR. Plus Ray is right. (Sarah777 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC))

Guy Fawkes Night is not celebrated anywhere in Ireland, including those areas where they are keen supporters of the British state, and opposed to Roman Catholicism, so that would suggest the proposed theory as to why, is wrong! Fasach Nua 19:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Very good point FN. I think that more or less kills the debate. Ray will be relieved. (Sarah777 20:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC))

Massive errors in the first line

"Halloween is a holiday..." - No it isn't. Halloween is the EVE of a holiday. Christmas is a holiday, Christmas Eve is not.

It isn't even a holiday in any of the other sense of the word... it isn't a public holiday, for instance, not in the UK, not in Europe, not even in the US (where they seem to take it more seriously than anyone!)

I'm not sure it's right to say it is "celebrated" either. I've never heard of anyone "celebrating" Halloween. I've attended Samhain celebrations on the 31st of October, but not Halloween. Halloween is not something that can be "celebrated" in the usual sense of the word.

I would correct the article, but it appears to be locked.

Adam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 (talk) 13:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact All Saints Day (All Hallows) (Fr. Toussaint/Nl. Allerheiligen)is a public holiday in several European countries. The article is poorly referenced and contains numerous unsubstantiated assertions. How long does as activity have to be continued to become traditional? When did trick or treating become established as a customary activity? When I was young my Lancashire born mother introduced us to various halloween rituals such as bob apple and others, but these were virtually unknown to our neighbours in Southern England. Augusta2 17:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

In the United States it is a major holiday, and marks fall is in full swing (although, it is 75 degrees F here in Missouri, which is really weird and a whole different subject). Major motion pictures centered around Halloween themes are set to be released, and it accounts for billions of dollars a year in revenues. 68.143.88.2 18:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You asked, "When did trick or treating become established as a custmary activity?" The article answers that, and links to a fuller answer at the article trick-or-treating. — Walloon 14:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This is the thing... All Hallows Day is a holiday. Halloween is is the EVE of All Hallows Day, and is thus NOT a holiday, merely the day before a holiday. So, I stand by my point that it is not actually a holiday even in the US, merely a notable day. Holiday does not mean "any day where people follow a tradition or do the same things each year", there is more to it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Holiday

All Saints Day is not a holiday either, it is a Saints Day. Hallowe'en is marked by a Bank Holiday in Ireland on the last monday of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Fandin

Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america

Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.23.19 (talk) 21:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw a baby in a bumble bee costume and I screamed and ran away because at the time I honestly thought it was a giant bee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.110.235 (talk) 22:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling and the article title

Hallowe'en is a contraction and has an apostrophie. The trend of dropping the apostrophie became popular with the popularity of Microsoft Windows 95, and Microsoft Word, which still adjusts the spelling to Halloween despite Oxford, Britannica and other reputable reference books including an apostrophie. I propose that the article title is changed to include the apostrophie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 (talk) 13:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 (talk • contribs)

I've never even heard or seen it spelled with an apostrophe. Where are the sources for this spelling? What is it a contraction for? Either way I always see it spelled without the apostrophe. In fact, I've never seen it spelled with the apostrophe outside of Wikipedia. Google, MS Word, and all spell checkers correct it to Halloween. Even back in 1978, a movie called "Halloween" was released...it must have been pretty popular way before MS Word was invented. The name definitely should not be changed. ╦ﺇ₥₥€Ԋ(^talk/_contribs) 23:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the article, which explains that Hallowe'en is a contraction of All Hallow Even. Walloon (talk) 08:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

• Plenty of sources for this:

[BBC] [The Telegraph] [The Times] [The People] [A Poirot book] [Yorkshire Post] [Northern Ireland Tourist Board] and many more found within a matter of seconds by typing "hallowe'en" into Google.

It does largely seem to be British sites coming up, though that may well be because I'm on google.co.uk which, I believe, increases the page rank of British sites.

And most of the signs in stores when it was Hallowe'en included the apostrophe (in my area, at least). I've always seen this much more commonly than the version without the apostrophe, and as stated above dictionaries tend to prefer that version (which is certainly true for the dictionaries in my house).Hengler (talk) 23:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Halloween is an official spelling in American English, but in Commonwealth English it is Hallowe'en. Therefore the article name should be determined by Wikipedia's English language policy. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Gregory III and Gregory IV

Pope Gregory III (731-741) consecrated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter to all the saints and fixed the anniversary for 1 November. Pope Gregory IV (827-844) extended the celebration on 1 November to the entire Church. — Walloon (talk) 22:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

North America

The holiday was brought to North America by Irish immigrants leaving the famine in the 1850s. No other group brought it to NA as stated. 22:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, recently in my HIST 4360 (Ghosts, Myths, and Legends) class we learned that there are many traditions, customs, and aspects brought to the New World by non-Irish settlers. Someone should do more research on this and add it to the article as it would give a better background on Halloween as we know it and how it evolved throughout time. Also there should be mention that during the Victorian era Halloween, matchmaking was an important aspect of the holiday during this time period. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~bannatyn/articles.html#victorian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mink84 (talk • contribs) 05:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that Halloween as it's celebrated in North America today, although its origins may have derived out of rituals and practiced observed from Gaelic traditions, isn't really reflective of the ancient "beliefs" of the ancient Gaels in Ireland and other regions of Europe. From a personal standpoint, I always associate Halloween with Witches, Ghosts, Zombies, trick-treating and Pumpkins. I don't think associating those things as Gaelic really proves the link between ancient and current traditions. From an economic/marketing standpoint, Halloween has really taken on a life of its own as it is celebrated (more than observed) by North Americans these past several decades.--208.179.153.163 (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The origins, and how it came to North America, and the eventual spread all over the world would surely be of considerable note. The celebration went from "Ireland-> America-> World" in that order. Surely that's notable. Other additions from various cultures should indeed be included in the article. Purple Arrow (talk) 12:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Holiday?

Is Halloween strictly-speaking a holiday? Is this the right appelation for it? Ivankinsman (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In so far that is is a Christian Holy Day, or at least the following day is, and the word holiday comes from the term Holy Day, then "yes". Holiday, by which we mean a day that we do not go to work, comes from the custom of spending the day in church instead of labouring. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Article quality

this article is terrible and needs serious work to restore it to any semblance of quality, it not written in an encyclopedic style (some of its even in first person narrative!) its far to purple, confusing and rambling, the section on trick and treating & around the world are essentially repetition and there are hardly any source for much of the articles claims, I've been to Ireland more than once around halloween and have never seen the level of celebration described. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.248.225 (talk) 10:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• I agree. And, anecdotally, having lived in Britain and having many Irish friends, my experience was much the same as the above poster. Not that that has anything to do with the quality of the article. 69.107.107.43 (talk) 18:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree as well. I think it's inaccurate to say that Halloween came from Famine-Irish and is currently celebrated by a larger majority of North Americans today. I'd give more credit to St Patrick's Day for that and NOT Halloween.--208.179.153.163 (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the above, Halloween is most popular in Ireland, and has been for centuries, see here from 1828, [1] It did not become popularised in the USA until about 1920. It's directly descended from the old Irish Samhain festival, as are Beltaine, Imbolc, and Lughnasadh. Purple Arrow (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

All the agreement and disagreement is a great place to start a healthy debate, but what will improve this article more than anything are some solid sources. It's part of the reason I'd like to start a Halloween Wikiproject - I for one think most about this page in October, but I work at a haunted attraction so I never have the time to do real work when it's on my mind, and I think some real coordination could do amazing things for this page.

halloween dates

very few cities in the united states do the last saturday of october also these cities do daytime,not nighttime.i in one of those cities.96.235.136.163 (talk) 01:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

References, article length and structure

All references in this article need to be checked to ensure they comply with WP:RS. This is not a reliable source, since it's a posting from a catalog for Halloween supplies. If material cannot be attributed to reliable sources, it needs to be removed. This article currently far exceeds the size limit at 68K and needs to be dramatically reduced. Sections that cannot be reduced should be forked and a summary left in their place. Not everything needs to be saved and not all sections need to be forked. Again, anything that can't be sourced should be automatically removed.

I have merged two sections which contained identical information. The rest of the article needs to be scrutinized for styistic considerations and to be sure the structure is both easy to follow and conforms stringently to the manual of style. Please be sparing with images, not every section in this article needs an image of someone in a costume and pictures of Halloween decorations may be derivative works. Such material will be removed and deleted. If any editor has any questions, please just ask. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Halloween in England

It sucks that the English have no real Halloween traditions... I'm going to write to Gordon Brown and demand England-specific traditions, and I suggest everyone else do the same. Please? We're so missing out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.184.138 (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

halloween

u dont have alot of information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.27.152 (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject

I think this article could be well supported by Wikiproject Halloween (covering all types of celebrations that occur on October 31); WikiProject Horror has too limited a focus. I would considering proposing such a project if there exists interest on certain strategic pages, such as this one. Anyone interested in the idea should feel free to talk to me, so I can determine if it's worth trying at this time. Thank you.--otherlleft (talk) 14:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Halloween in Greece

First of all Greece is a country which not neads any other celebration it had already many! The last 3 years even Greece dont care about Halloween many children all over the country they use to have Halloween parties and some stores (1 or 2 in each town for example Patras the 3rd bigges town of Greece it has already two Halloween stores)use to have some halloween products as masks treats and all about decoration also some Greek companies are produce some Greek Halloween products In Greece you may find some "Antihalloweens" Antihalloweens we use to call the people who are HATE Halloween,there are many of them becase they think that is stupid to celebrate an foreign celebration and we also have Carnival which is common with the Halloween At 11-10-2008 had took place the first Greek Halloween Party ever!!!It was on my house in Patras! All my friends was dressed up with spookie costumes and on 31st of october we gonna have our first trick or treating!!! Finally Greece had done an improvement about that theme the Halloween! We hope that in a few years we are gonna celebrate Halloween normaly in Greece [2] Nikolakopoulos Dimitrios —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.31.29 (talk) 20:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

A bit less...but a bit more

It's a big article, but it changes from subject to subject. Maybe if there was a seperate article for some things, because the article does not have enough detail about each subject, it should just focus on 1. --89.241.149.177 (talk) 20:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)