Talk:Viktor Bout

Merchant of Death book as source

From hearing interviews with the authors of the book, I am skeptical as to the quality of their information. They seem to pass anecdotes as official info. I think it would be better to cite more solid sources than the book.

I think it is important to have super-solid sources for this article, otherwise it may quickly degenerate into a pile of sensationalist rumors. vlado4 (talk)

Rounded View

I urge anyone who wants a broader view of the subject to of Viktor Buoot to review eastern media instead of western media which very often fail to provide the rounded view.

part1: http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30849 part2: http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/30973 part3: http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/31005 part4: http://www.russiatoday.com/features/news/31009

Western media has proclaimed Buoot to be some sort of criminal charachter, subverting world authorities for many year. In fct he lived these years mostly in Mosow, doing philanthropic work and most evidence is made by incredible witnesses of no investigative background. Maybe he is being demonised by american to push for a mcCain victory? might now he be released due to some technicality? very possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.11.251.148 (talk) 17:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

March 2008 Arrest

AP reporting Bout arrested in Bangkok, Thailand. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/APNEWSALERT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-03-06-05-51-47 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dipgolf (talk • contribs) 11:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I made some major additions to the article, all found on the referenced articles. When time permits I might even flesh it out - in the mean time there is quite a lot of detail about him at http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/sierraleone/bout.html

About the image copyright, I have contacted the relevant holders, but it's proving difficult as there's very little of Bout image wise. Is it possible that these images are public domain because they are tied to finding a major criminal?

In case anyone wondered, I did this after watching Lord of War :) Gabbahead 18:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

His name can also be written as "Victor Bout", apparently. 66.92.165.123 20:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

And they actually write him as "Victor Butt" on the Dept. of State web site: http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/fs/2001/4004.htm

In the part says that the pentagon has used him to supply iraqi troops, I assume that means the new iraqi army? Hellfire83 11:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's an excellent, apparently still unused source: http://www.publicintegrity.org/bow/report.aspx?aid=157 --Thatnewguy 12:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.54.27 (talk)

Eh eh? What's this in the article about a DEA sting? None of the sources say it was a sting, or even that the DEA was directly involved. They only say that a DEA warrant preceded the Thai one. Did the AP pull an article describing a "sting", is this original research, have we got a DEA agent secretly boasting on Wikipedia, what's the deal? 69.29.28.8 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Plane Fleet

"According to the book Merchant of Death, Bout owns a fleet of Russian cargo planes which he uses to transport arms. His planes are very poorly maintained but shielded with lead. The lead weighs them down but protects them from most bullets."

I don't have the book "Merchant of Death" but I find the idea that he's using lead-lined planes to stop bullets absurd. Lead is a horrible material for blocking bullets. Either the author is wrong or whoever wrote that statement into the article is mistaken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmw2cc (talk • contribs) 17:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I listened to the Leonard Lopate interview with the authors, and they indeed claim that he used lead in his planes in order to protect them. They even claim that this even saved his plane from being shot-down while doing a run in the Congo. Anyway, it would be nice if this issue can be resolved. Are the authors to be trusted as proper sources or not? vlado4 (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you read Davinci code also? it is same thing, hollywood story. There is no evidence to support the book when you scratch surface. all so called witnesses actually previous business partner maybe wronged by Buoot. photographs claiming to be covert meeting actually invited by Buoot to make photo. As for lead lined planes no plane is made of lead. lead is much too heavy, plane would not fly.

NPOV

"Nicholas Cage's movie Lord of War portrays a fictional character that in no bit portrays Victor Bout, but is a product of author's imagination. Several other so-called writers and reporters, including Peter Landesman, Douglas Farah, Alexander Harrowell,and many others used Bout's name to build-up publicity over their unethical, misleading, and often novel-like works that otherwise will be discounted as uncorroborated yellow-press phantom stories."

"Many of the things said about Viktor are proven to be mere speculations or allegations. It is convenient for several governments to blame one individual who can neither speak out, nor fight the allegations in the absence of resources to do so."

Phrases such as these do not sound like a dispassionate article with a neutral point of view, but rather someone with an agenda. At the very least a rephrase would be useful.

I find this article having heavy anti-Russian bias. Most of the allegations are unproven and borrowed from writings of freelance journalists. Typical example is the sentence "US and UN officials say that Bout smuggled thousands upon thousands of assault rifles, grenade launchers, bullets and other weapons to African conflicts in Angola, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Kenya, Liberia, Libya, Congo-Brazzaville, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Sudan, Swaziland and Uganda.[2]" Remarkably, the reference [2] for this allegation cannot be opened. Invoking the rule : "Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous" I suggest to cut this article most severely, so that NPOV criterion can be satisfied.

Just to point out that the above list of countries includes Cameroon. The cited source does not include Cameroon.

Where is the link that suggests that the Russian Mafia are behind a spate of political assassinations in lebanon? I guess it does make sense given these people have little regard for human life, and by stirring the pot in the middle east they also keep their arms racket thriving. We hear plenty about how 'Syria' or 'Iran' are behind such killings (and maybe they are), but it also makes sense that these devious and evil men could be mafia with links in the west through banks or media, who knows??. Look at the crazy whacko kooks in London recently with their radiation poisoning! --Dean1970 21:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced Statements and lack of prose

This article just plain sucks. Not only is most of this unsourced and lacking in prose, but it the few sources it does use include Wayne Madsen. This guy is a Tabloid Reporter for crying out loud, is he really a reliable source for this article? I mean, the whole thing reaks of an agenda, and not neutrality. I think we need this page protected and investigated.Scryer_360 05:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Lousy article

The link to "Gangsters Incorporated" (used six times as a reference) is dead.

Scryer is right; there is a lot of no-source and junk-source stuff in this piece.

The link at globalpolicy.org is written by a guy in the Jamestown pseudo-think-tank. Can't we do better? If the UN and Interpol don't like this Bout guy, how come there are no links at the UN or Interpol?

There are:

http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/committees/Liberia2/1015e.pdf

Pennywisepeter 17:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Bout's Military Experience

I removed refernces to Bout working for the KGB (there is no reliable source). He was a major in the GRU (he was a major, I believe) (there are many sources, don't have time at this moment to find one - so I didn't state that).

So you do not have a source. But I do have a source that say he was a KGB major, and I cited this source - review in International J. of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, v. 20, page 309.Biophys (talk) 05:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I checked the sources in connection with recent RR warring and think they satisfy WP:Source. (1) First of them is Daily Mirror, this is not a blog. (2) Another source is original NATO web site [1]. It say: "Almost nine years after the phantom flight of their Boeing 707, officials of Air Commerce are not aware of the fact that the name of their company was used by Victor Antaloevic Bout, one of the biggest weapons smugglers in post cold War era and proven business partner of Hasan Cengic, wartime logistics man of the BiH Army, post-war businessman and deputy in the BiH Parliament. Bout's Boeing 707 did not only fly under the code of Air Commerce, but also kept it even after Bout had founded his own air company Air Cess in Liberia. It is not known how Bout found out the code of this company and misused it, but it is assumed that he was helped by his business partner Haasan Cengic. In spring 2003, UN experts for tracking and control of the biggest weapons importers and exporters were in Sarajevo and they were particularly interested in Hasan Cengic." (3) Last source is Douglas Farah - there are no doubts that it was indeed his opinion. So, everything is fine.Biophys (talk) 05:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree:

• First, this isn't a NATO original source, please read it carefully: [2]. It is SFOR web site related to media reports in Bosnia.
• Second, it's just Main News Summary in Bosnia for Friday, 11 June 2004 presented in SFOR web site, as you can see from the top of the table. Your quote is from a local newspapers (Slobodna Bosna).
• And finally, there is an SFOR NOTE at the bottom of the site, to quote:

Please Note
The portions of articles in this report are summaries from the originals. They have been derived and translated from available open source, newspapers, periodicals, TV and radio broadcasts. They reflect the opinion of the particular media or the media's sources. The use of articles and quotations does not necessarily reflect SFOR's official opinions or policy, nor are they official endorsements of any kind. Any offence is not intentional. The primary objective is to make available a variety of regional media summaries.

• Regarding your other website sources, they are not in compliance with WP:SOAP policies, especially with WP:SPS: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field.". Daily Mirror article isn't signed, and Douglas Farah "source" is just his opinion placed in his own web site, not a research, not a court validation etc. The way you wrote the claim in the article about Hasan Cengic is against all rules regarding WP:RS policies. The Dragon of Bosnia (talk) 21:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but you did not provide any valid arguments here. First, this is original NATO site (a reliable secondary source that provides a summary), and we have no any obligations to trace this down to original primary sources. In fact, this is explicitly discouraged - please read WP:verifiability. If this is not SFOR official opinion, we can not refer to it as SFOR official opinion, but we can still cite the source. Second, Daily Mirror is an appropriate source, and there is no requirements for any articles to be signed per WP:Source. Third, we do not need any "research" (original research?) or "a court validation". This is not a court, this is encyclopedia. As far as opinion is clearly attributed to Douglas Farah, this is fine.Biophys (talk) 22:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not about NATO site. At the bottom of that site there is a note which says that this is not the SFOR claim:

Please Note The portions of articles in this report are summaries from the originals. They have been derived and translated from available open source, newspapers, periodicals, TV and radio broadcasts. They reflect the opinion of the particular media or the media's sources. The use of articles and quotations does not necessarily reflect SFOR's official opinions or policy, nor are they official endorsements of any kind. Any offence is not intentional. The primary objective is to make available a variety of regional media summaries.

Second, news report doesn't mean it is a fact or evidence: WP:SOAP, WP:RS. The Dragon of Bosnia 11:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Bad Grammar

This sentence:

Viktor Anatolyevich Bout (Russian: Виктор Анатольевич Бут) (born January 13, 1967 in Dushanbe, Tajik SSR, Soviet Union) is a Russian former KGB major and arms dealer, [1] nicknamed "the Merchant of Death".[2] Bout is suspected of supplying arms to the Taliban and Al Qaeda and of supplying huge arms shipments into various civil wars in Africa with his own private air fleet.[3] He is the subject of a book by that name written by Douglas Farah and Stephen Braun[4] (Bout is not the first to bear the title: it appeared in a premature obituary of Alfred Nobel, which ultimately inspired him to create the Nobel Prizes).

is just terrible. "He is the subject of a book by that same name..." What same name? 'Merchant of Death'? Or 'Private Air Fleet'? Because 'Private Air Fleet' is what it appears to be referencing..

And then the random tangent about Nobel? The sentence is just plain horrid. GenerationalSavant (talk) 02:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't think the tangent about Nobel is appropriate in the introduction. Perhaps in a section of the article that delves into a greater detail, but not the intro. If you can do a better job with the introduction, by all means, edit it. vlado4 (talk) 21:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This paragraph annoyed me too, so I've had a stab at it. Sir Garence (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My edit

I have recently deleted a segment of text that is not supported by cited sources. Some of links are dead; others do not support the claim. If you think they do support the claims, please explain it here or provide better sources. Remember, this is a BLP article.Biophys (talk) 23:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)