Talk:Tobi Vail

Maybe elaborate on relationship with Kurt? It apparently affected him deeply.

-Am I the only one who thinks it's inappropriate to have such a huge section about Kurt Cobain in Tobi's article when she just gets a blurb in his? Especially considering it apparently affected him more than her, I think a good amount of that content belongs on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.125.153 (talk) 22:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

-I added what I read in Heavier than Heaven and Come as you are but someone edited it out as an attack on Charles Cross

The phrase in the TOBY VAIL section, "met with resistance and misunderstanding from a male dominated rock scene" is probably not an accurate description of the musical environment of Olympia, Washington at that time. Bikini Kill seemed to be predicated upon opposing such a rock scene, and were powered by such a reaction--but the scene in Olympia, WA was comparatively welcoming to mostly-female bands like Bikini Kill. It is much more likely that Bikini Kill themselves would like to be remembered as withstanding 'resistance and misunderstanding,' but this may be hopeful thinking on their, or a fervent fan's part. BK were no more or less met with resistance than any other of the many unconventional bands in Olympia, WA at that time. It is fairest to remember Oly as a rock scene that FOSTERED bands like Bikini Kill. Had BK been born in a less liberal environment, the description would be more or less accurate.

sorry to whoevers put that other tobi vail picture on and i took it off, its not a question of mines better than yours its just thats such an iconic fucking riot grrrly image and quality bk pictures can be hard to find, and that other one you can be pretty easily found on myspace

The Bikini Kill section contains one of the most epic run-on sentences I've ever encountered on Wiki: "A band often met with resistance and misunderstanding from an inarguably male-dominated rock scene due to their ferocious lyrics and chaotic live performances which dealt with controversial issues like rape, incest, domestic violence, abortion, sexuality, body image, stalking, discrimination, racism, even vegetarianism, and just plain sexism in general, they persevered and today are largely credited, along with Bratmobile, with starting Riot Grrrl, a movement that merged Do It Yourself punk culture with feminism, encouraging girls to start bands, zines, make their own culture and create their own self-produced media." I'm no grammar fascist, but that's at least 4 different sentences. I'd be happy to clean this up, but I though whoever initially wrote it might prefer to do that. Otherwise, this is a solid, albeit brief, biographical entry.

Why is being born on the day of the first moon landing relevant? This is just propaganda.

Fair use rationale for Image:Jigsaw3.jpg

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Coined Term "Riot Grrrl"?

I can't find any confirmation Tobi Vail coined the term "riot grrrl." The Riot Grrrl article says that the term was invented by Mark Anderson:

Uses and meanings of the term 'Riot Grrrl' developed slowly over time, but its etymological origins can be traced to the actual Mount Pleasant race riots in spring 1991. Writing in Dance of Days: Two Decades of Punk in the Nation's Capital, Mark Andersen reports that early Bratmobile member Jen Smith (later of Rastro! and The Quails), reacted to the violence by prophetically writing in a letter to Allison Wolfe: "This summer's going to be a girl riot." Other reports say she wrote, "We need to start a girl riot." Soon afterwards, Wolfe and Molly Neuman collaborated with Kathleen Hanna and Tobi Vail to create a new zine and called it Riot Grrrl, combining the "riot" with an oft-used phrase that first appeared in Vail's fanzine Jigsaw: "angry grrls".

Who coined this term? Anyhow, the fact confirmation should stand in the article until this is settled. Griot 18:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

tobi did - this is obvious to everyone but you, sorry - it says very clearly there that the "riot" of jen smith's statement was simply combined with the recurring phrase of tobi's zine jigsaw, "angry grrrls": "riot" + "angry grrrls" = "riot grrrls" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.163.0 (talk) 19:26, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Tobi did? But the quote from the Riot Grrrl article seems to indicate that Jen along with some others did. She wrote a letter to Allison saying, "This summer's going to be a girl riot" or "We need to start a girl riot." Anyhow, Allison, Molly, and Kathleen, as well as Tobi -- if the Riot Grrrl article is to be believed -- coined the term together for their 'zine. I just don't think it's fair to credit Tobi without crediting Jen, Allison, Molly, and Kathleen as well. It's just not fair! Griot 19:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

it's not saying she created the term riot grrrl, that term was created collaboratively among them all, but the term "grrrl" was indeed coined in tobi's jigsaw many years before, at least the word in the sense of it referring to DIY underground activist punk feminism —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.163.0 (talk) 21:56, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

But what about Jen, Allison, Molly, and Kathleen? C'mon, they were part of it! And I really think you should go to the Riot Grrrl article and explain they name over there (I'd do it but I don't know this subject as well as you). I mean, like, don't you think all the people who minted this coin should get their names on it? Griot 22:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

well i wrote practically that entire article, except for the first 2 paragraphs in the origins section and with the exception a few sentences here and there. i don't think it's necessary, it says very clearly tobi came up with the phrase "angry grrrls" which she used a lot in her zines, it caught on, and it was later combined with the "riot" thing that jen smith said in response to the cinco de mayo race riots in dc that year. the grrrl was tobi's, the riot was jen's, and they all of them came up with "riot grrrl" when they started writing that zine - that wasn't even what they called the movement at first, they called it "the revolution grrrl style now", but riot grrrl was the name of their zine and it just caught on —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.163.0 (talk) 22:42, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

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I agree that the statement about violence at shows is probably an exaggeration. I saw a number of Bikini Kill shows in Olympia and never witnessed any attacks on them, but I was labeled as some sort of male aggressor at a show with a heavy riot grrl presence for dancing in the usual and accustomed Olympian way. They even put a poster out against me. It was pretty funny as far as I was concerned. At that point the riot grrls had a chip on their shoulder and it's fair to say most of them were from outside of Olympia, mainly Washington, D.C. As for the origin of Riot Grrl as a term, the first time I ever saw it was when someone used a slide-projector from an apartment to flash messages onto the wall of the Washington Center for Performing Arts across the street. The Olympia police were on scene and in a tizzy, taking notes. I pointed out that you can't arrest someone for photons, to which a female officer on the scene said "We'll see about that." One of the slides was the words Riot Grrl with a post office box address. The responding officer took that information down as well. Riot Grrl as such seems to have come out of a collective by seven women, a performance space on the far side of State Street in Olympia named an acronym composed out of their seven names, one of which was Kathleen Hanna. I can't remember the name, but the performance space in many ways was reminiscent of GESCO, an automobile service garage which Calvin Johnson and company took over and used to hold shows, conferences and whatnot. Timothy Leary spoke there once. I believe K Records is headquartered there now, or just next to the same space.

For what it's worth, Tobi Vail bridges the gap between the Olympia of the riot grrls and Nirvana, and the earlier music scene in Olympia, which in many ways was just as or even more vital. Vail was right there from the beginning, when DOA and the Wipers used to play at Evergreen, the Wimps were putting on alley shows and Nihil Obstat and the Yougn Pioneers were playing the Tropicana. Riot grrl and Nirvana came in as that older legacy, with deep ties to the Tacoma punks, had largely moved away.

81.7.91.43 12:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The "violence" at shows was a total myth. At the "Free to Fight" festival in Portland, the organizers themselves circulated a flyer that said, "Put Women in their Place", then used the stage to make an announcement about it, leading attendees to think some rogue male was right there in the concert hall, propagandizing against them! This was so bald-faced it was ridiculous. Basically, it was a way to excuse the militancy of the riot grrl movement. This small group of female scenesters bullied their way onto bills, record labels, and media, with no more substance than any other mediocre "political" garage band . . . and for a few years they got away with it. They did nothing for women's issues beyond token donations to charities and did a lot more damage making women in politics seem irrational, hysterical, and self-promoting. Bands like the Slits, Runaways, Kleenex, Pink Champagne, Chalk Circle ect. deserve the credit for carving women a place in rock music. Riot Grrl reduced that niche to a ridiculous cliche and stripped it of all musical value . . . play Bikini Kill (supposedly the "leaders") next to any of the literally hundreds of all female or part female pre-hardcore/riot grrrl bands and you'll hear what I mean. In none of these pages is there any real evidence of anti-"grrl" violence and we shouldn't be pretending there was just so their extremism can be justified. Meanwhile, millions of working-class and third world women suffer while their "champions" strut and pose, ironically popping about. 76.27.232.185 (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Rock for choice april 92 pat graham.jpg

Image:Rock for choice april 92 pat graham.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 16:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)