Talk:Samaria/Discussion of sources

Why the "not a modern toponym" or "not understood outside of Israel" theory fails

User:MeteorMaker has been trying to promote the theory that the term "Samaria" is "not a modern toponym" or "not understood outside of Israel". He has not supported it with any actual sources making that claim, but rather has tried to develop as synthesized argument based on his interpretation of how various sources use the term. Even worse, he has been presented with multiple English language sources that use the term and thus refute his theory, but has rejected them on various grounds, claiming that they are referring to the biblical Samaria, or that the sources are Israeli. Now, to begin with, there is nothing wrong with a source simply because the person happens to have been born in Israel. I repeat, there is nothing wrong with a source simply because the person happens to have been born in Israel. The sources brought are English language, generally North American or European, which is all that matters. If we brought Hebrew language sources, that would be a different matter, but we haven't, we've brought North American and European publications. However, even if you exclude people born in Israel (not that there is any reason to), your claims still fail, as the multiple sources below show:

1. "Its intention was to establish a Jewish settlement in the heart of Samaria, the northern bulge of the West Bank, densely populated by Arabs." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 45.
2. "Few in number until the late 1970s, the young Gush Emunim settlements in Samaria, the Etzion bloc, and Kiryat Arba attracted the most idealistic and dynamic fundamentalist activists." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 54.
3. "Rabin intended the settlement to be temporary and to relocate them later within the confines of the Allon plan, not in the heart of Samaria. The settlers, however, refused to move." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 170.
4. "The row houses of Ofra, a Jewish suburb to the north of Jerusalem, are planted in deep red soil at the foot of Ba'al Hatzor, the highest mountain in Samaria." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 213.
5. "In August 2005, reversing his longstanding position on championing settlement of the Land of Israel, Sharon evacuated all of the Jewish settlements in Gaza (some 9,000 people living in twenty-one communities) and four small settlements in the northern part of Samaria (West Bank)." Alfred J. Kolatch. Inside Judaism: The Concepts, Customs, and Celebrations of the Jewish People, Jonathan David Company, 2006, p. 270.
6. "On 18 September 1978, one day after the signing of the Accord, 700 Gush Emunim members established an unauthorized settlement in Samaria..." Lilly Weisbrod. Israeli Identity: In Search of a Successor to the Pioneer, Tsabar and Settler, Routledge, 2002, p. 112.
7. "LAST STAND IN SAMARIA", Kevin Peraino, Newsweek, August 15, 2005.
8. SAMARIA, Martin Gilbert, The Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Routledge, 2005, p. 134 (and other maps showing Samaria).
9. "The relative success in establishing official settlement in Kfar Etzion and unofficial settlement in Kiryat Arba prompted groups of Israelis to attempt settlement in the major town in Samaria — Nablus.", Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 139.
10. "In Samaria the voting percentage increased from 75% in the Jordanian period to 83.9%..." Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 185.
11. "Nevertheless, Haganah commanders recognized that the size of the Iraqi force and its location in northern Samaria made it a dangerous threat." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 153.
12. "The prospects for a successful defense also improved during this period with the arrival of a large Iraqi expeditionary force in northern Samaria, enabling Glubb to withdraw..." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 279.
13. "...wanted to concentrate their forces along shorter defensive lines in the mountainous terrain of central Samaria." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 296. (many other similar examples in this book).
14. "The first actual step taken by the group was to settle in Elon Moreh in Samaria." Santosh C. Saha, Thomas K. Carr. Religious Fundamentalism in Developing Countries, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 73.
15. "Northern Samaria is one of the harsest setting in the territories... In addition there have been many convoys bringing food, medical supplies, and other necessities to blockaded villages in Samaria and on the western "seam line". David Dean Shulman. Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, University of Chicago Press, 2007, p. 102.
16. "Arafat lived in the casbah of old Nablus in Samaria and held his meetings in small Nablus cafes or in the New Generation Library." John Laffin. Fedayeen; the Arab-Israeli Dilemma, Free Press, 1973, p. 26.
17. "(Though the northern parts of Samaria were occupied by the Iraqi army, as a Hashemite sister state, Iraq allowed Abdullah to exercise his political influence over the territories its armies controlled)." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 12.
18. "Kiryat Arba (near Hebron) and Elon Moree (in Samaria) were, until 1977, the only settlements founded in the West Bank outside the lines of the Allon Plan." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 95.
19. "In 1981, at the end of Begin's first term as Prime Minister, there were about 80 settlements in the West Bank, some in the densely-populated Arab areas in Samaria and elsewhere." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 96.
20. "The first settlement had been built in Samaria, and settlers believed that they had begun the task of preventing territorial compromise in the West Bank." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 30.
21. "While the government had acted quickly to forcibly uproot previous settlement attempts, it did not move against the settlers in Samaria through December 7." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 32.
22. "Success in restoring some order was due to the energy and skill of the district governors — in Hebron a Palestinian, Nairn Tucan, in Samaria another, the active Ahmed Khalil, and in Jerusalem Abdullah Tell." Ann Dearden. Jordan: history and special problems, R. Hale, 1958, p. 85.
23. "...as a reaction to the October War, and the character and impact of the illegal settlement attempts in Samaria from late 1974 onward." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 135.
24. "As regards physical activity Gush Emunim had carried all before it for two years and had planted the presence in Samaria which would be extremely difficult to curb, let alone uproot." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 157.
25. "In Samaria, the number of women employed in sewing has risen from 100 in 1967 to just over 3000 in 1972." Vivian A. Bull. The West Bank--Is it Viable?, Lexington Books, 1975, p. 123.
26. "A third sector was opened up in the north, where Gen. Elazar sent the armoured brigades of Ram and Bar-Kochva from Ugda Peled to take Nablus and Jenin in Samaria." John Laffin, Mike Chappell. The Israeli Army in the Middle East Wars 1948-73, Osprey Publishing, 1982, p. 19.
27. "For example, in the case of the settlement-city of Ariel - the largest settlement in Samaria, coincidentally named after Ariel Sharon - the design was stretched into a long, thin form." Stephen Graham. Cities, War, and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics, Blackwell Publishing, 2004, p. 181.
28. "Likud planners designated Ariel to become the largest Jewish town in Samaria, with as many as one hundred thousand residents by the year 2010." Robert I. Friedman. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement, Random House, 1992, p. 72.
29. "... but late on June 6 he broke through to capture Nablus, the key to road communications in Samaria... Jordanian defences in Samaria fell apart." John Pimlott. The Middle East Conflicts: From 1945 to the Present, Orbis, 1983, p. 68.
30. "On the other hand, we visited the planned city of Ariel on the top of a mountain in Samaria, one of Israel's West Bank settlements." Peter Laarman. Getting on Message: Challenging the Christian Right from the Heart of the Gospel, Beacon Press, 2006, p. 46.
31. "Yael Meivar was shot by terrorists near the settlement of Alei Zahav in Samaria." Anthony H. Cordesman, Jennifer Moravitz. The Israeli-Palestinian War: Escalating to Nowhere, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, p. 26.
32. "Marking Israeli Arbor Day at a Jewish settlement in Samaria on Feb. 3, Shamir said...", Andrew C. Kimmens. The Palestinian Problem, H.W. Wilson, 1989, p. 211.
33. "Carter concluded that the unresolved issues included... the future of the Palestinians in Samaria, Judea, and Gaza..." Herbert Druks. The Uncertain Alliance: The U.S. and Israel from Kennedy to the Peace Process, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 175.
34. "Jewish settlements in Samaria in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would be under Israeli sovereignty." H. Paul Jeffers. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jerusalem, Alpha Books, 2004, p. 212.
35. "Instead the government based its view on the map previously introduced by Clinton Bailey which envisaged three self-governing Palestinian enclaves, with an Israeli corridor in Samaria." Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide, Oneworld Publications, 2001, p. 86.
36. "Instead, he chose total disengagement from Gaza and the dismantlement of four settlements in northern Samaria." Zvi Shtauber, Yiftah Shapir. The Middle East Strategic Balance 2005-2006, Sussex Academic Press, 2007, p. 123.
37. "Prior to forming his new coalition with the Labor Party, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon strong-armed members of his Likud cabinet to support Labor's idea of unilateral withdrawal from Gaza and four settlements in northern Samaria." Getz, Leonard. "Likudniks Against Sharon: Rebels or Loyalists?", The Jewish Exponent, 01-13-2005.
38. "Understandably so: in the end, the Gaza withdrawal took all of six days while the pullout from four settlements in northern Samaria was accomplished in a single day." Zelnick, Robert. Israel's Unilaterialism: Beyond Gaza, Hoover Press, 2006, p. 157.
39. "The four West Bank settlements that Israel is evacuating are all located in the biblical Land of Israel — territory that observant Jews believe was promised to the Jewish people in the Old Testament. The area of the West Bank, known as northern Samaria, was inhabited by the tribe of Menashe, one of the 10 tribes of Israel that were forced into exile." "Biblical significance of West Bank settlements", International Herald Tribune, August 23, 2005.
40. "Others not only support comprehensive talks but call for abandonment of Israel’s plan to disengage from Gaza and four settlements in northern Samaria." Sofaer, Abraham D. "Disengagement First", Hoover Digest 2005 No. 1, Hoover Institution.
41. "In August 2005, Israel vacated the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip--mainly in Gush Katif--as well as four settlements in northern Samaria." Inbari, Motti. "Fundamentalism in crisis - the response of the Gush Emunim rabbinical authorities to the theological dilemmas raised by Israel's Disengagement plan", Journal of Church and State, Autumn, 2007.
42. "Four settlements will be evacuated in the northern Samaria region of the West Bank." Tamir, Naftali. "Naftali Tamir: Retreat with peace in mind", The Australian, August 15, 2005.

As is clear from the above, and hundreds more sources, User:MeteorMaker's theory is both entirely unproven, and, in fact, disproven. MeteorMaker, please desist from trying to edit-war your theories into Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (1)"Its intention was to establish a Jewish settlement in the heart of Samaria, the northern bulge of the West Bank, densely populated by Arabs." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 45.
• (2)"Few in number until the late 1970s, the young Gush Emunim settlements in Samaria, the Etzion bloc, and Kiryat Arba attracted the most idealistic and dynamic fundamentalist activists." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 54.

Comment. (1), (2) Cherrypicking. As shown, Lustick is citing settler language and explicitly documented that this is annexationalist language. These two quotes are thus immaterial.Nishidani (talk) 11:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Lustick nowhere explains that he is "citing settler language", nor does he state that the term "Samaria" is "annexationalist language", nor does he include the word in quotations of any sort. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, in fact he does. You may have seen this quote before:

"For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area between the Green Line and the Jordan River not as the West Bank but as Judea and Samaria." [1]

As about citing settler language, it's pretty obvious to even a casual reader that Lustick does, so obvious that he doesn't feel a need to spell it out. He's not using the term "Samaria" anywhere in the book except when describing the settler movement's ideals or ambitions. It's anything but a clear, unambiguous case of a scholar using the term, and we have wasted lots of time arguing over this isolated instance, so I suggest you find better, unequivocal examples instead of defending your misrepresentation of Lustick's book to the death. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

As has been pointed out before "Judea and Samaria" != "Samaria". Also, as has been pointed out before, "it's pretty obvious to even a casual reader that Lustick does, so obvious that he doesn't feel a need to spell it out" = inaccurate, self-serving original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at the conclusion that it's "inaccurate"? MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (3)"Rabin intended the settlement to be temporary and to relocate them later within the confines of the Allon plan, not in the heart of Samaria. The settlers, however, refused to move." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 170.
• (4)"The row houses of Ofra, a Jewish suburb to the north of Jerusalem, are planted in deep red soil at the foot of Ba'al Hatzor, the highest mountain in Samaria." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 213.

Comment.3 and 4. The two authors throughout use the ‘West Bank’ as their preferred designation of the area, and identify other names for it with specific groups, the IDF or religious settlers. Note their record of an interview with a rabbi from the extremist settlement at Kiryat Arab, who echoes the sentiments of Rabbi Kook.

‘Rabbi Waldman, his dark moustached mouth waiting in a white field, bristled. We had referred to the lands where ancient Israel once stood as the West Bank. “No one ever called the country of Jordan the East Bank,” he reprimanded us. “In the same manner, you cannot call this the West Bank if you want to relate to the essence of the area.”

Naming is rarely innocent; choice of place names carries meanings, forwards claims. To those who would trade land for peace, this is the “West Bank.” The military authorities who administer these lands, for whom they are mainly a troublesome job, call them “the territories“. To the religious nationalist settlers they are Judea and Samaria (Yehudah and Shomron in Hebrew), the historical copre of the ancient Jewish nation.’ Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 152.

The authors use "West Bank" more frequently, but they also used this term. Their interview with the rabbi is about the phrase "Judea and Samaria", this issue is about the term "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, could you kindly provide a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that "Judea and Samaria" ≠ "Judea" and "Samaria"? The authors clearly state that J+S is Israeli terminology, who exactly says that doesn't apply to the terms in isolation? MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

MM, could you please provide a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that when an author refers to "Samaria" he is actually referring to the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria"? Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That is a claim I've never made. When you say "Again you are referring to the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria", not the term "Samaria"", implying that the "Samaria" in "Judea and Samaria" is some kind of other, nobler Samaria, untainted by any association with Israel, and unrestrained as a toponym to the primary group of users Kolatch describes, do you have a source for that or is it your own theory? FWIW, Kolatch says "these lands" are Judea and Samaria [to the settlers], not "this land". MeteorMaker (talk) 15:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

• (5)"In August 2005, reversing his longstanding position on championing settlement of the Land of Israel, Sharon evacuated all of the Jewish settlements in Gaza (some 9,000 people living in twenty-one communities) and four small settlements in the northern part of Samaria (West Bank)." Alfred J. Kolatch. Inside Judaism: The Concepts, Customs, and Celebrations of the Jewish People, Jonathan David Company, 2006, p. 270.

Comment. Yes, but three pages earlier he writes ‘That notwithstanding, the building of Jewish communities in the West Bank – or Judea and Samaria, as Jews refer to it – commenced.’p.268. (b) The four communities were withdrawn from what the Palestinians, under an agreement with Israel, call the Jenin Governorate. Why then the insistence that a Palestinian administrative district be called by a name favoured by the Occupying power, i.e. by neighbouring Israel?Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Again you are referring to the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria", not the term "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that "Judea and Samaria" ≠ "Judea" and "Samaria" would be helpful. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that when an author refers to "Samaria" he is actually referring to the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria" would be helpful. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 4). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (6)"On 18 September 1978, one day after the signing of the Accord, 700 Gush Emunim members established an unauthorized settlement in Samaria..." Lilly Weisbrod. Israeli Identity: In Search of a Successor to the Pioneer, Tsabar and Settler, Routledge, 2002, p. 112.

CommentIt is Weissbrod, by the way. She habitually glosses ‘Judea and Samaria’ with 'The West Bank' p.88 even in the pages Jayjg cites pp.112-13, and the text here uses the Gush Emunim designation, precisely those associated with the establishment of Samaria as the term. The West Bank is used as a gloss throughout these books, precisely because everyone in the reading world globally knows what West Bank means, as opposed to Samaria or Judea.Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Weissbrod is referring to "Samaria", not the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria", and she does not include the term in quotes. She uses the term as a simple geographic designator, and no-where indicates she is quoting anyone. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment 2 Lily Weissbrod is an Israeli [2], which makes this source unusable as evidence of outside-Israel use of the toponym. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by a British publisher. The United Kingdom is "outside-Israel". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Jayjg: an Israeli source is poor proof that non-Israelis use the term. The nationality of the publisher is immaterial and your "discrimination" objection is distasteful and willfully misleading. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, MeteorMaker: Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by a British publisher. Your attempts to discriminate against sources based on their alleged ethnic or national origin is distasteful and inappropriate. The United Kingdom is "outside-Israel", and the alleged ethnicity or national origin of the source is irrelevant and willfully misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If you seek to provide evidence that term X is used outside country Y, examples of term X being used inside country Y don't do much for your argument except weakening it, by showing that you're in such short supply of proper examples that you must pad your list with 1/3 irrelevant filler. The discussion would also benefit if you refrained from constantly making distasteful, inappropriate and willfully misleading allegations of racism. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

• (7) "LAST STAND IN SAMARIA", Kevin Peraino, Newsweek, August 15, 2005.

Comment.Samaria is used in the title, and once in the text, which otherwise prefers West Bank. The title is followed by the gloss ‘Disengaging from Gaza will be hard. The West Bank could be harder.’ The topic links are to ‘The West Bank’. The one statement using the term quotes a fanatic:

'One right-wing parliamentarian, Arieh Eldad, has warned that Sa-Nur could become the "Stalingrad of Samaria".'

Nishidani (talk) 11:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

And yet, the article uses the term Samaria. It uses both, just as this article (Israeli settlement) uses both. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

One is a direct quote by an Israeli, the other is an allusion to the historical past (read page 2 and you will understand). Newsweek does not use the term "Samaria" at all, except when explaining what settlers call the West Bank. This has been pointed out to you numerous times before, you still insist on misrepresenting this source and many others. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The article nowhere states or implies that its use of the term is "an allusion to the historical past"; rather, that's more inaccurate, self-serving original research. This has been pointed out to you numerous times before, you still insist on misrepresenting this source and many others. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That is kind of the nature of allusions — few authors feel a need to put in a footnote that says "this is an allusion to X". The Newsweek article is titled "Last stand in Samaria", and contains an interview with a settler who uses the term, and a brief recount of the siege of Masada. I trust the context is obvious to everybody else, so I won't waste my time explaining it one more time. FWIW, neither Kevin Peraino nor Newsweek are known to have used the term ever again (except when explaining that it's settler-speak for the West Bank). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (8)SAMARIA, Martin Gilbert, The Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Routledge, 2005, p. 134 (and other maps showing Samaria).

CommentThis is the first piece of evidence worthy of attention. Distinguished historian. He uses the Mandatory terminology throughout, irrespective of changes in political and national control of these areas. To be discussed, especially since in this he is ioncoherent for he uses these designations while most, if not all, of his maps follow the international usage 'West Bank' which Israeli law abolished, and Israeli usage does not accept.Nishidani (talk) 13:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

He uses the designation "Samaria" on several maps. Period. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• (9)"The relative success in establishing official settlement in Kfar Etzion and unofficial settlement in Kiryat Arba prompted groups of Israelis to attempt settlement in the major town in Samaria — Nablus.", Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 139.

Comment.You fail to note that before he uses this term Gerson notes,

‘On February 29, the popular term, ‘West Bank’, was by official fiat, abandoned in favour of ‘Judea and Samaria’ – the historical and geographical designation of the region and one not without nationalist and religious overtones of association with the Jewish people. p.111 Gerson through refers to the West Bank as the default term, since where the term is used he follows the language of people who use it like Moshe Dayan, and exponents of Gush Enumin. Gerson therefore supports the point made by Lustick and several others, that these terms are specifically nationalist terms, with a strong setler POV.

As before, you bring arguments based on the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria", not the designator "Samaria", which Gerson uses naturally, with no indication that he is "following the language of people who use it". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that "Judea and Samaria" ≠ "Judea" and "Samaria" would be helpful. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, a reliable source for your oft-repeated claim that when an author refers to "Samaria" he is actually referring to the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria" would be helpful. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 4). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (10)"In Samaria the voting percentage increased from 75% in the Jordanian period to 83.9%..." Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 185.

The problem is the use of the term relates to the Jordanian period of rule, when in Israel the area was still officially called the West Bank, and the modern admninistrative divisions now in place did not exist. Nishidani (talk) 12:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The book was published in 1978, long after Jordanian rule ended. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

This quote is attributed to Davar, an Israeli newspaper. Not usable as evidence of outside-Israel use. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Israeli sources are not invalid, and in any event the book was published by Routledge, an "outside-Israel" publisher. Irrelevant objection dismissed. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 6). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (11)"Nevertheless, Haganah commanders recognized that the size of the Iraqi force and its location in northern Samaria made it a dangerous threat." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 153.
• (12)"The prospects for a successful defense also improved during this period with the arrival of a large Iraqi expeditionary force in northern Samaria, enabling Glubb to withdraw..." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 279.
• (13)"...wanted to concentrate their forces along shorter defensive lines in the mountainous terrain of central Samaria." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 296. (many other similar examples in this book).

Comment. Again, Jayjg, you've been googling without reading. These three quotes come from a history of the 1948 war, when Mandatory language was employed. Our discussion is on contemporary conventioned Western usage to describe the West Bank, not on historical British or Jewish usage. All three are irrelevant, and like most of the above, to be elided as immaterial to the point.Nishidani (talk) 13:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, Nishidani, the quotes come from a book published in 2004, almost 60 years after the 1948 war. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly historical usage, in reference to the British Mandatory administration district. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 2004, not historical usage. What British Mandatory administration district? Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Samaria, obviously. Are you seriously saying that a book on history cannot use toponyms from the historical period it describes? That must be one of the strangest objections yet in this discussion (and many other objections, like the "pleonasm" one you repeated ad nauseam [3][4][5] before you backed off from, unable to explain your thinking) were already positively surreal. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

• (14) "The first actual step taken by the group was to settle in Elon Moreh in Samaria." Santosh C. Saha, Thomas K. Carr. Religious Fundamentalism in Developing Countries, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 73.

CommentAgain useless. The whole relevant chapter uses the 'West Bank' as the default term, and the specific description refers to Gush Emunim's language, in accordance with its fundamentalist concepts of Eretz Israel. Nishidani (talk) 13:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, an invalid objection. The source uses both terms, and nowhere indicates that it is "referring to Gush Emunim's language" - no quotation markes, inverted commas, etc. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Implied — but may obviously be read as if this was the authors' own term. The authors, as Nishidani notes, use "West Bank" as the default term however. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

"Implied — but may obviously be read as if this was the authors' own term" = inaccurate, self-serving original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (15)"Northern Samaria is one of the harsest setting in the territories... In addition there have been many convoys bringing food, medical supplies, and other necessities to blockaded villages in Samaria and on the western "seam line". David Dean Shulman. Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, University of Chicago Press, 2007, p. 102.

Comment. Impressive, until you actually read the whole page and find out that Shulman specifies that he is talking about the ‘northern West Bank’ p.102 Nishidani (talk) 13:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

...and clearly uses both descriptors. Just like this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment 2 David Dean Shulman is also an Israeli [6], which makes this source unusable as evidence of outside-Israel use of the toponym. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by an American university press. The United States is "outside-Israel". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Jayjg: an Israeli source is poor proof that non-Israelis use the term. The nationality of the publisher is immaterial and your "discrimination" objection is distasteful and willfully misleading. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Meteormaker: Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by an American university press. Your attempts to discriminate against sources based on their alleged ethnic or national origin is distasteful and inappropriate. The United States is "outside-Israel", and the alleged ethnicity or national origin of the source is irrelevant and willfully misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 6). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (16)"Arafat lived in the casbah of old Nablus in Samaria and held his meetings in small Nablus cafes or in the New Generation Library." John Laffin. Fedayeen; the Arab-Israeli Dilemma, Free Press, 1973, p. 26.

Comment. Again immaterial since the reference is to the pre-1967 period, where Mandatory language was still used on occasion in foreign accounts, and not to contemporary usage.

Again, invalid objection, since the book was published in 1973, well after 1967, and decades after 1948, the Mandatory period. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly historical usage, in reference to the British Mandatory administration district. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 1973, not historical usage. What British Mandatory administration district? Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 13). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (17) "(Though the northern parts of Samaria were occupied by the Iraqi army, as a Hashemite sister state, Iraq allowed Abdullah to exercise his political influence over the territories its armies controlled)." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 12.

Comment. Immaterial. The reference is to 1948, when Mandatory language prevailed.Nishidani (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Invalid objection. The book was published in 2006, 60 years after the Mandatory period. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly historical usage, and thus irrelevant to the extent of the modern toponym's usage domain. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 2006, not historical usage. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 13). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (18)"Kiryat Arba (near Hebron) and Elon Moree (in Samaria) were, until 1977, the only settlements founded in the West Bank outside the lines of the Allon Plan." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 95.

Comment. The reference is again to the West Bank, which is not Israel's preferred usage, but Western usage, and Samaria as a part of it, which is Israel's preferred usage. The contradiction subsists.

The source uses both terms, as does this article, per WP:NPOV. No contradiction exists. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

See (19). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

See (19). Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (19) "In 1981, at the end of Begin's first term as Prime Minister, there were about 80 settlements in the West Bank, some in the densely-populated Arab areas in Samaria and elsewhere." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 96.

Comment. The West Bank against was not usage acceptable to Begin, whereas Samaria and Judea were. The areas populated were overwhelmingly Arab areas, and the Samaria here refers to areas which have perfectly legitimate Arab designations, i.e. governorates in the northern West Bank. Nishidani (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Your objection doesn't even parse into English. The source uses both "West Bank" and "Samaria", as does this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment 2 Joseph Nevo is also an Israeli [7], which makes cites (17), (18) and (19) unusable as evidence of outside-Israel use of the toponym. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by a British publisher. The United Kingdom is "outside-Israel". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Jayjg: an Israeli source is poor proof that non-Israelis use the term. The nationality of the publisher is immaterial and your "discrimination" objection is distasteful and willfully misleading. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Meteormaker: Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by an American university press. Your attempts to discriminate against sources based on their alleged ethnic or national origin is distasteful and inappropriate. The United Kingdom is "outside-Israel", and the alleged ethnicity or national origin of the source is irrelevant and willfully misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 6). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (20)"The first settlement had been built in Samaria, and settlers believed that they had begun the task of preventing territorial compromise in the West Bank." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 30.
• (21)"While the government had acted quickly to forcibly uproot previous settlement attempts, it did not move against the settlers in Samaria through December 7." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 32.

Comment(20/21) But Weisburd at the outset of his book states

All but one of these outposts were established in the “Occupied West Bank”, as it is generally called in the United States, though the settlers who live in these areas prefer to use the term “Judea and Samaria” when speaking of the region. The latter term emphasizes the connection of their settlements to the ancient Land of Israel’ p.9

He does not use the term in his Map of the area p.10 on page 28 he specifies Samarian hills as being in the north of the West BankNishidani (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The issue at hand is the term "Samaria", not the phrase (and Israeli administrative district) "Judea and Samaria". The source uses both "Samaria" and "West Bank", as does this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment 2 David Weisburd is also an Israeli [8], which makes cites (20) and (21) unusable as evidence of outside-Israel use of the toponym. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by an American university press. The United States is "outside-Israel". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Jayjg: an Israeli source is poor proof that non-Israelis use the term. The nationality of the publisher is immaterial and your "discrimination" objection is distasteful and willfully misleading. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, Meteormaker: Wikipedia does not disqualify sources based on ethnic or national origin, and the book was published by an American university press. Your attempts to discriminate against sources based on their alleged ethnic or national origin is distasteful and inappropriate. The United States is "outside-Israel", and the alleged ethnicity or national origin of the source is irrelevant and willfully misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 6). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (22)"Success in restoring some order was due to the energy and skill of the district governors — in Hebron a Palestinian, Nairn Tucan, in Samaria another, the active Ahmed Khalil, and in Jerusalem Abdullah Tell." Ann Dearden. Jordan: history and special problems, R. Hale, 1958, p. 85.

Comment. Again you are citing a ref. to the 1940s, when Mandatory usage prevailed, and not a source bearing on contemporary usage. Immaterial, since no one is contesting Samaria was used at that period. Nishidani (talk) 14:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The book was published in 1958, ten years after the Mandatory period ended. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly historical usage, in reference to the British Mandatory administration district. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 1958, ten years after the Mandatory period ended, not historical usage. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 13). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (23)"...as a reaction to the October War, and the character and impact of the illegal settlement attempts in Samaria from late 1974 onward." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 135.
• (24) "As regards physical activity Gush Emunim had carried all before it for two years and had planted the presence in Samaria which would be extremely difficult to curb, let alone uproot." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 157.

Comment: Can't be evaluated due to restricted content. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The quote is clear, and another disproof of your theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (25) "In Samaria, the number of women employed in sewing has risen from 100 in 1967 to just over 3000 in 1972." Vivian A. Bull. The West Bank--Is it Viable?, Lexington Books, 1975, p. 123.

Comment: Legit, if weak. "The West Bank" is still the majority term. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Legit, period. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (26) "A third sector was opened up in the north, where Gen. Elazar sent the armoured brigades of Ram and Bar-Kochva from Ugda Peled to take Nablus and Jenin in Samaria." John Laffin, Mike Chappell. The Israeli Army in the Middle East Wars 1948-73, Osprey Publishing, 1982, p. 19.

Comment: Clearly historical usage. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 1982, 34 years after the Mandatory period ended, not historical usage. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 13). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (27) "For example, in the case of the settlement-city of Ariel - the largest settlement in Samaria, coincidentally named after Ariel Sharon - the design was stretched into a long, thin form." Stephen Graham. Cities, War, and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics, Blackwell Publishing, 2004, p. 181.

Comment: "West Bank" is again used consistently in the book, while "Samaria" occurs exactly two times [9]. One is in the bibliography (a World Zionist Org document), the other is Jayjg's quote. It seems unlikely "Samaria" is part of the author's own vocabulary, since he does not use it elsewhere [10][11]. I would say this lone instance of Stephen Graham using the term is akin to an instance of the term "das Vaterland" in a book about modern German white supremacy groups and their ideology or ambitions — a term that is in frequent use within the group, but hardly used as an acceptable alternative to Germany by anybody else. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Your original research is fascinating. However, he nowhere indicates he is using the terminology of any other groups; rather the source uses both terms, as does this article. Also, comparing Jewish groups to neo-Nazis is gratuitous and distasteful. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The source does not use the term Samaria at all, except this lone instance.MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

...in which it uses the term. Your theory is again disproved. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The fact that it's only used once, in reference to the settler movement, weakens your hypothesis. Now, if it had been used consistently, throughout the book... but that is not the case. I'm inclined to believe it's not part of Graham's own terminology. You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation, but unequivocal evidence, it's clearly not. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (28) "Likud planners designated Ariel to become the largest Jewish town in Samaria, with as many as one hundred thousand residents by the year 2010." Robert I. Friedman. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement, Random House, 1992, p. 72.

Comment: Another source that directly contradicts Jayjg's claims [12]. Page xxiv: "[...] Judea and Samaria are part of the Land of Israel, said Drobles [cochairman of the settlement division of the World Zionist Organization], using the Biblical names for the West Bank". Page xxxiv: "Gush Emunim's rabbis proclaimed that settling [...] Judea and Samaria, otherwise known as the West Bank was part of the divine process [...]". Restricted content on Google Books makes the rest of the instances of "Samaria" difficult to evaluate, though the one Jayg quotes appears to be another case of a neutral author using the toponym when describing the settler movement's ambitions. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, no contradiction whatsoever, since we are discussing the use of the term "Samaria", not the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria". Also, there is no indication whatsoever that the author is "using the toponym when describing the settler movement's ambitions". Continual dismissal of sources based on self-serving theories about the authors' motivations are summarily dismissed. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Jay, can you explain more fully your theory that when the author refers to "the Biblical names for the West Bank," what he really has in mind is "an Israeli administrative district"?--G-Dett (talk) 13:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• (29) "... but late on June 6 he broke through to capture Nablus, the key to road communications in Samaria... Jordanian defences in Samaria fell apart." John Pimlott. The Middle East Conflicts: From 1945 to the Present, Orbis, 1983, p. 68.

Comment: Clearly another pre-67 reference to the area. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Published in 1983, long after the Six-Day War, and decades after the mandatory period. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly historical usage, and thus irrelevant. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly published in 1983, and this not "historical usage" - highly relevant, and again disproves your theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 13). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (30) "On the other hand, we visited the planned city of Ariel on the top of a mountain in Samaria, one of Israel's West Bank settlements." Peter Laarman. Getting on Message: Challenging the Christian Right from the Heart of the Gospel, Beacon Press, 2006, p. 46.

Comment: The sentence actually reads as if "Samaria" were a settlement and not Ariel, which might be an indication of the level of research the author did before chatting with the settlers. I will give this one the benefit of the doubt though. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• (31) "Yael Meivar was shot by terrorists near the settlement of Alei Zahav in Samaria." Anthony H. Cordesman, Jennifer Moravitz. The Israeli-Palestinian War: Escalating to Nowhere, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, p. 26.

Comment: Cordesman and Moravitz use the term "the West Bank" 107 times in the book, "Samaria" 12 [13]. Seven are direct quotes by Israelis, three (including Jayjg's quote) refer to the Israel-declared administrative districts, two could not be determined due to restricted content.

The source uses both "West Bank" and "Samaria", as does this article. There is no indication whatsoever, that the author is referring to "Israel-declared administrative districts", since there is no "Israel-declared administrative district" called "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Even if your interpretation is correct, it's 107-3 (with two indeterminable) against "Samaria" being a majority term in this book. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually there are over 40 legitimate uses on this page alone, since all of your objections have been incorrect at best, often distasteful, and sometimes irrelevant. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 6). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (32) "Marking Israeli Arbor Day at a Jewish settlement in Samaria on Feb. 3, Shamir said...", Andrew C. Kimmens. The Palestinian Problem, H.W. Wilson, 1989, p. 211.

Comment: With the preceding sentence "The Likud bloc led by Shamir continues to support Israeli sovereignty over all of the occupied territories", the reference to "Samaria" becomes ambiguous — is it Likud/Shamir's terminology or the authors' own? Google Books only lets us see 2 of the 7 instances of "Samaria" [14]. One is a quote by an Israeli rabbi, the other looks like an official Israeli statement, though it's difficult to say with any certainty. The preferred toponym seems to be "the West Bank" with 30 instances however. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The only "ambiguity" is the usual self-servingly invented one. The author uses the term "Samaria" naturally, nowhere indicating he is quoting or using the language of anyone else. The source uses both "West Bank" and "Samaria", as does this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Cannot be evaluated due to restricted content, but maybe somebody who owns the book can clarify if the other five instances are also Israeli quotes. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Per the quote. Another disproof of your theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• (33) "Carter concluded that the unresolved issues included... the future of the Palestinians in Samaria, Judea, and Gaza..." Herbert Druks. The Uncertain Alliance: The U.S. and Israel from Kennedy to the Peace Process, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 175.

Comment: Herbert Druks [15] uses "Samaria" consistently and avoids the term "the West Bank" entirely, so, finally, some bona fide anecdotal evidence for Jayjg's hypothesis.

Just one source among many disproving your hypothesis. I have no hypothesis, I'm just disproving yours. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

One instance is not proof of widespread acceptance, which you need in order to prove your hypothesis. Synthesized anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Dozens of instances on this page alone. And I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just disproving your theory. Conclusively, I might add. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Synthesis of anecdotal evidence never "disproves" reliable sources here on Wikipedia. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (34) "Jewish settlements in Samaria in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would be under Israeli sovereignty." H. Paul Jeffers. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jerusalem, Alpha Books, 2004, p. 212.

Comment: Jeffers is simply paraphrasing Ehud Barak, a fact that would have been evident to Jayjg had he bothered to read the preceding paragraph: "Barak arrived with his position on the public record:" [16]. There are four instances of "Samaria" in the book, two of the ancient Samaria, two from Barak quotes. The term "the West Bank", in comparison, occurs 30 times.MeteorMaker (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The author "paraphrases" Barak using the term "Samaria". The source uses both "West Bank" and "Samaria", as does this article. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Still an Ehud Barak quote. No other (non-historical) uses of Samaria here, so, again, no cigar.MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

No, a quote of H. Paul Jeffers, and published in the United States. Another disproof of your theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Jeffers quotes (or paraphrases) Ehud Barak. Period. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (35) "Instead the government based its view on the map previously introduced by Clinton Bailey which envisaged three self-governing Palestinian enclaves, with an Israeli corridor in Samaria." Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide, Oneworld Publications, 2001, p. 86.

Comment: Sherbok-Cohn and El Alami use "West Bank" consistently in the book, except in three places [17], one of which (again) acknowledges the fact this list was intended to refute: "The Israelis insisted on referring to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria". Of the other two, one is a paraphrased statement by Menachem Begin (where the term is again glossed with "The West Bank"), the second (the one Jayjg chose) appears to be another paraphrased statement, this time by Benjamin Netanyahu. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is about the term "Samaria", not the Israeli administrative district "Judea and Samaria". The authors use both "West Bank" and "Samaria", as does this article. The notion that these are "paraphrases" is another example of that self-serving theory regarding the motivations of the authors. The authors, however, simply use the term. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The authors do not use "Samaria" except in quotes or paraphrased quotes by Israeli PMs, and one explanation that it is Israel-specific terminology, the opposite of what you intended the cite to show. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

"paraphrased quotes by Israeli PMs" = self-serving original research. Invalid objection dismissed, and another disproof of your theory. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

See 34). MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (36) "Instead, he chose total disengagement from Gaza and the dismantlement of four settlements in northern Samaria." Zvi Shtauber, Yiftah Shapir. The Middle East Strategic Balance 2005-2006, Sussex Academic Press, 2007, p. 123.

Comment: Zvi Shtauber and Yiftah Shapir are Israelis. [18][19]. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (37) "Prior to forming his new coalition with the Labor Party, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon strong-armed members of his Likud cabinet to support Labor's idea of unilateral withdrawal from Gaza and four settlements in northern Samaria." Getz, Leonard. "Likudniks Against Sharon: Rebels or Loyalists?", The Jewish Exponent, 01-13-2005.

Comment: Leonard Getz is the National Vice President of the Zionist Organization of America [20]. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (38) "Understandably so: in the end, the Gaza withdrawal took all of six days while the pullout from four settlements in northern Samaria was accomplished in a single day." Zelnick, Robert. Israel's Unilaterialism: Beyond Gaza, Hoover Press, 2006, p. 157.

Comment: Robert Zelnick, unsurprisingly, states the opposite of what Jayjg sets out to prove: ::

"[...] Judea and Samaria, what most of the world refers to as the West Bank."[21] MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (39) "The four West Bank settlements that Israel is evacuating are all located in the biblical Land of Israel — territory that observant Jews believe was promised to the Jewish people in the Old Testament. The area of the West Bank, known as northern Samaria, was inhabited by the tribe of Menashe, one of the 10 tribes of Israel that were forced into exile." "Biblical significance of West Bank settlements", International Herald Tribune, August 23, 2005.

Comment: Clearly a reference to ancient history. The article uses "West Bank consistently, as does every article in the International Herald Tribune online archive. There are 5144 instances of "West Bank", while "Samaria" is used 48 times, every time accompanied by an explanation of the term to the effect of "the name the settlers use for the West Bank". [22]. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (40) "Others not only support comprehensive talks but call for abandonment of Israel’s plan to disengage from Gaza and four settlements in northern Samaria." Sofaer, Abraham D. "Disengagement First", Hoover Digest 2005 No. 1, Hoover Institution

Comment: Abraham D. Sofaer was a member of a Zionist org in his youth [23]. Yes, you are allowed one faux pas in your life, but interestingly, I have not been able to find more than one instance of him using the term "Samaria" either. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (41) "In August 2005, Israel vacated the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip--mainly in Gush Katif--as well as four settlements in northern Samaria." Inbari, Motti. "Fundamentalism in crisis - the response of the Gush Emunim rabbinical authorities to the theological dilemmas raised by Israel's Disengagement plan", Journal of Church and State, Autumn, 2007

Comment: Motti Inbari is an Israeli [24]. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

• (42) "Four settlements will be evacuated in the northern Samaria region of the West Bank." Tamir, Naftali. "Naftali Tamir: Retreat with peace in mind", The Australian, August 15, 2005.

Comment: Naftali Tamir is an Israeli [25]. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC) MeteorMaker (talk) 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

As is clear from the above, and hundreds more sources, User:MeteorMaker's theory is both entirely unproven, and, in fact, disproven. MeteorMaker, please desist from trying to edit-war your theories into Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to see a textbook case of WP:SYNTH paraded as a refutal of dozens of reliable sources[26][27], particularly when verbatim quotes from said reliable sources are flippantly dismissed as "WP:SYNTH", in the second sentence already. Jayjg, could you kindly point me to one single statement in that list of willfully misrepresented (and long-refuted) anecdotal evidence to the effect of "the toponym "Samaria" enjoys wide acceptance today, outside Israel"? MeteorMaker (talk) 23:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice attempt to push your theory onto me. No, unfortunately it is you who has been trying to remove all reference to "Samaria" from Wikipedia, based on your repeated claims that that toponym is not widely understood outside Israel, Not widely understood outside Israel, etc. Not only have your arguments been based entirely on your personal view of how the term is used, but dozens of sources have been brought that disprove your theory anyway. Please stop attempting to edit-war your personal political views into Wikipedia. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You have been throwing at least half a dozen WP policies around to see if one sticks, and the result has consistently been that they stick on your own argument. Again, please 1) review WP:SYNTH and 2) tell me exactly where in your painstakingly compiled list of misrepresented anecdotal evidence we can find a direct quote (not a synthesized conclusion) that corroborates your claim that the toponym "Samaria" enjoys wide acceptance today, outside Israel. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL! No, it won't work, nice try though. You were the person who attempted to remove all references to "Samaria" from Wikipedia based on your theory that based on your repeated claims that that toponym is not widely understood outside Israel, Not widely understood outside Israel, etc. You have singularly failed to prove your theory, despite your attempts to misrepresent your anecdotal evidence as claiming the same things you claim. Even worse, hundreds of sources actually show your theory to be wrong in practice. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Am I to understand you think you are above WP policies somehow? If you believe WP:SYNTH does not apply to your list of (misrepresented) cites and the entirely unsupported conclusion you draw, and that your WP:OR can trump a fact that has support in multiple encyclopedias and academic works and thousands of news cites[28][29], please show your licence to break Wikipedia rules. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Please avoid straw man arguments. WP:SYNTH does apply to your theory, since it is you who claims that toponym is not widely understood outside Israel, Not widely understood outside Israel - despite the fact that none of your sources even discusses the term "Samaria" as a toponym, and despite the fact that hundreds of examples show your theory to be mistaken. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And again, Jayjg, where in the suggested wording "Samaria [...] is a term used for the mountainous northern part of what is today the West Bank. Israeli annexationists also use the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer to the modern West Bank" do you see that idea expressed? Your earlier WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR accusations boomeranged back spectacularly, and so did your attempt to paint my argument as a straw man.

You may be interested to know that your "hundreds of examples" have been decimated to three or four [30]. However, if you could find something better than anecdotal examples, for instance a source that at least remotely supports your hypothesis that "Samaria" is a modern toponym outside Israel, you would be in a somewhat better position to claim that my "theory" (explicitly supported by dozens of reliable sources [31][32], with literally thousands more that could be added in an instant) "fails". MeteorMaker (talk) 23:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Please avoid straw man arguments. WP:SYNTH does apply to your theory, since it is you who claims that toponym is not widely understood outside Israel, Not widely understood outside Israel - despite the fact that none of your sources even discusses the term "Samaria" as a toponym, and despite the fact that hundreds of examples show your theory to be mistaken. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Your dislike of strawmen is noted. Now, I ask the same question again: Where do you see that idea expressed in the suggested wording:

"Samaria [...] is a term used for the mountainous northern part of what is today the West Bank. Israeli annexationists also use the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer to the modern West Bank"?

And again, why do you feel WP policies such as WP:SYNTH, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV don't apply to your position in this discussion? MeteorMaker (talk) 11:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

As explained many times, the sentence contains the pleonasm "what is today". It was also the West Bank yesterday, and the day before. It also contains that POV about "annexationists". As for your last question, I have no "position", I'm simply resisting and disproving your WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

If it was also the West Bank yesterday, and the day before, why do you call use of the term "the West Bank" an "anachronism" in this revert? It would seem that you need to refine your understanding of either the word "pleonasm", or the word "anachronism", or both. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Because the political unit known as the "West Bank" did not exist in 1937. Please review anachronism. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

So when you say "it was also the West Bank yesterday and the day before", roughly what day before would you say it went from non-West Bank to the West Bank? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

When what "went from non-West Bank to the West Bank"? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The West Bank obviously. Either you're wrong when you say it was "also the West Bank yesterday and the day before" (implying it has always been there) or you're wrong when you say a time qualifier like "what is today" is redundant. If the sentence "Samaria [...] is a term used for the mountainous northern part of what is today the West Bank" contains a pleonasm like you claim, please indicate where else in the sentence it is stated that Samaria and the West Bank are different-epoch names for the same area. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

According to whom are "Samaria and the West Bank... different-epoch names for the same area"? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. [[33]] MeteorMaker (talk) 07:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. Which one of those sources states "Samaria and the West Bank... different-epoch names for the same area"? Please quote them saying it. And note, "corresponds roughly to the northern portion" is nothing like saying "different-epoch name for the same area". Jayjg ^(talk) 02:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

(<---outdent)

(Outdent) All of them do, and again: it does help if you read them. I post them again here, since the link I keep posting apparently goes ignored:

• Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:

Samaria, central region, ancient Palestine. [...] it was bounded by Galilee to the north, Judaea to the south, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and the Jordan River to the east. It corresponds roughly to the northern portion of the modern West Bank territory.

• The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Samaria, an ancient city of central Palestine in present-day northwest Jordan (Pre-67 edition - MM). It was founded in the ninth century B.C. as the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Samaria.

• Columbia Encyclopedia:

Samaria, ancient city, central Palestine, on a hill NW of Nablus (Shechem). The site is now occupied by a village, Sabastiyah (West Bank).

• Encarta:

Samaria, ancient city and state in Palestine [...] In modern times, a sect of Samaritans practices a religion similar to that of the biblical Jews, with some admixture of Islam. Few in number, they make their home around their ancient temple site of Mount Gerizim, near modern Nābulus, in the area now known as the West Bank.

• Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names:

Samaria, Samaria, (Hebrew: Shomron), West Bank. The central region of ancient Palestine and its capital, now called Sabasṭiyah.

Re the usage domain of the terms "Judea" and "Samaria":

• Encyclopedia Britannica Online says:

West Bank, area [...] occupied from 1967 by Israel. The territory, excluding East Jerusalem, is also known within Israel by its biblical names, Judaea and Samaria.

• Columbia Encyclopedia says:

West Bank, territory, [...] largely occupied by Israel [...] Israelis who regard the area as properly Jewish territory often refer to it by the biblical names of Judaea and Samaria.

Now, since you declined the opportunity to explain and defend it, and instead focused on a different point that has already been shown dozens of times, can we safely conclude that your "pleonasm" objection lacks substance? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I note that not one of your sources says "Samaria and the West Bank" are "different-epoch names for the same area". Thanks for proving my point. Now, since you have declined to provide a single source which actually makes the claims you do, can we safely conclude that your use of pleonasms is at an end? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You note wrong then, since all of them refer to "Samaria" as ancient and "West Bank" as modern. I give you one final opportunity to explain what you mean when you dismiss the suggested sentence(s) below with "Pleonasm!" (a word that most of us understand as indicating some level of redundancy):

Samaria [...] is a term used for the mountainous northern part of what is today the West Bank. The combined term Judea and Samaria, despite some geographical imprecision, is used in Israel to refer to the West Bank as a whole.

So, exactly what do you find redundant in the time qualifier "what is today"? Is it:

1. stated anywhere else in the sentence? Or simply:
2. miscategorized by you?

MeteorMaker (talk) 08:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Which of your sources says "Samaria is the ancient toponym, the West Bank is the modern toponym"? I give you one final opportunity to quote them making this claim. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Summary

A brief summary of the arguments:

WP policy / guideline	"Samaria" (and the combined term "Judea and Samaria") violates this policy/guideline because:	Evidence that supports this view	Evidence that supports the opposite view
Naming conventions (geographic names)	Lacks the required wide acceptance for being presented as a valid alternative to "the West Bank".	Wikipedia's procedure for determining if a toponym is widely accepted in the English-speaking world was applied by User:MeteorMaker [34] and User:CasualObserver'48 [35]. Details of our findings (points 1-3):	No reliable sources have been presented that "Samaria" is widely accepted as a modern toponym in the English-speaking world.
	1) All major online dictionaries and encyclopedias present "Samaria" as an ancient term and none as one in modern use. Most state that the term has been superseded by "the West Bank".	Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: "Samaria, central region, ancient Palestine. [...]. It corresponds roughly to the northern portion of the modern West Bank territory." Encarta: "Ancient city and state in Palestine [...] in the area now known as the West Bank." Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names: "Samaria, West Bank. The central region of ancient Palestine." For fuller quotes and more details, see table (B) below
	2) Compared to "the West Bank", "Samaria" is a minority term on Google Scholar and Google Books. It does not satisfy WP:NCGN's requirements: If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted.	Result, Google Books (English, published after 1993): West Bank, 48,700 hits. Samaria: 7,570. If we check the first 100, the overwhelming majority are about Bible-age Samaria. Result, Google Scholar (published after 1993): West Bank, 49,900 hits. Samaria: 25,900. Of the first 100, a large majority are people named Samaria, a dozen about the rare earth metal samarium, and a few about Bible-age Samaria.
	3) "Samaria" is extremely rare in news media in the English-speaking world, which unanimously prefer the term "the West Bank".	BBC: "West Bank", 29,800 Google hits [36]. "Samaria", 176 [37] CNN: "West Bank", 21,000 hits [38], "Samaria", 65 [39] FoxNews: "West Bank", 9,580 hits [40], "Samaria", 29 [41] Reuters: "West Bank", 481,000 hits [42], "Samaria", 32 [43]
	4) "Samaria" is extremely rare on official government sites in the English-speaking world.	The US State Department, 12 Google hits The US Department of Commerce, 0 Google hits The US Department of Defense, 0 Google hits The CIA, 2 Google hits USAID, 43 Google hits (all except a couple are people named Samaria) The UK Home Office, 1 Google hit The UK Foreign Office, 0 Google hits The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 1 Google hit The Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, 4 Google hits, all about ships named Samaria The New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 0 Google hits
	5) Several reliable sources state this as a fact.	"Known to the rest of the world as the West Bank." Gadi Wolfsfeld, Media and Political Conflict, 1997 "Only some right wing Jewish media in Israel and abroad now consistently and repeatedly use “Judea and Samaria". The international media have adopted the term “West Bank” without demur in virtually every editorial piece they publish." David Singer, International Analyst Network (website) 2007 "Judea and Samaria, what most of the world refers to as the West Bank." Robert Zelnick, Israel's Unilaterialism: Beyond Gaza, 2006 "The phrase "West Bank" has stuck, and is used to the near total exclusion of any other." Palestinefacts.org (website) See also table (B) below.
Undue weight	"Samaria" is an extreme minority toponym relative to the West Bank in the English-speaking world.	Shown above. See also table (B) below. Even on Israeli sites, "Judea and Samaria" is a decidely minor term, with only one sixth of the Google hits for "West Bank" [44][45].	No reliable sources have been presented that support the view that the toponym "Samaria" should be given equal prominence despite its extreme minority status relative to the West Bank.
Neutral point of view	Terms peculiar to one of the parties in an ongoing territorial conflict are by definition not NPOV. "Samaria" (and the combined term "Judea and Samaria") have been shown to be Israel-specific terminology and rarely if ever used by neutral parties. It is uncontested that the terms are controversial and rejected by the other side in the conflict.	A large number of cites from encyclopedias, news media, books and scholarly works have been presented in the course of this discussion that unanimously and explicitly support the view that "Samaria" (and the combined term "Judea and Samaria") are Israel-specific terms. See table (B) below. This view is also strongly supported by the Lexis-Nexis survey carried out by User:CasualObserver'48 [46] and by any informal Google search [47]. The above Google Books/Scholar hits (2) that are not about Bible-age Samaria or otherwise irrelevant are all written by Israelis, with few exceptions. The above Google hits for Samaria on news (3) and government (4) sites are all either quotes by/letters from Israelis, or references to official Israeli institutions with "Samaria" in their names, or explanations that "Samaria" is an Israel-specific term for the West Bank. A Google News search turns up 707 hits for "Samaria" [48], nearly all from Israeli news sources like Jerusalem Post, Ha'aretz or yNetNews. In comparison, "West Bank" yields 13,370 hits. [49].	No reliable sources (beyond some scattered anecdotal evidence) have been presented that the term is used by anybody else than Israelis or (the much smaller group) people affiliated with Zionist organizations.

Modern usage sources

As requested by Jayjg and CanadianMonkey, here are all the sources that have been presented in this discussion and that state anything about the modern usage of the toponym:

Table B: Modern usage of the toponym "Samaria"/ "Judea and Samaria"

Source	Samaria defined as:	Samaria is in regular mainstream English use	Samaria is in partisan or non-English use
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia	"Central region, ancient Palestine. [...] it was bounded by Galilee to the north, Judaea to the south, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and the Jordan River to the east. It corresponds roughly to the northern portion of the modern West Bank territory." [50]	As historical toponym	"The [West Bank] territory, excluding East Jerusalem, is also known within Israel by its biblical names, Judaea and Samaria."
Encarta	"Ancient city and state in Palestine, located north of present-day Jerusalem, east of the Mediterranean Sea. [...] In modern times, a sect of Samaritans practices a religion [...] near modern Nābulus, in the area now known as the West Bank."	As historical toponym	No indication
Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names	"Samaria, West Bank. The central region of ancient Palestine and its capital, now called Sabasṭiyah."	As historical toponym	No indication
Columbia Encyclopedia	"Ancient city, central Palestine, on a hill NW of Nablus (Shechem). The site is now occupied by a village, Sabastiyah (West Bank)."	As historical toponym	"Israelis who regard the [West Bank] area as properly Jewish territory often refer to it by the biblical names of Judaea and Samaria."
Oxford English Dictionary	No separate article. On "Samaritans", it says: "Although the kingdom of Samaria vanished long ago, the Samaritans still survive today as perhaps the smallest ethnic minority in the world."	No indication	No indication
Ian S Lustick: For the Land and the Lord, 1988	"Judea and Samaria are the biblical names for the general areas south and north of Jerusalem. (respectively) Historically, they include substantial portions of pre-1967 Israel, but not the Jordan Valley or the Benyamina district (both within the West Bank). "	No indication	"For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationalist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area between the green line and the Jordan River not as the West Bank, but as Judea and Samaria." (p.205 n.4) [[51]
Anthony H. Cordesman: Arab-Israeli Military Forces in an Era of Asymmetric Wars. Center for Strategic and International Studies (Washington, D.C.) Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006	Minority term for "the northern part of the West Bank"	No indication	"From April to December 2002, there were 17 suicide attacks directed from the northern part of the West Bank, referred to by some as Samaria." (p.90)
Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem, Cambridge University Press, 1996	Minority terms, describing "the historical core of the ancient Jewish nation"	No indication	"Naming is rarely innocent; choice of place names carries meanings, forwards claims. To those who would trade land for peace, this is the “West Bank.” The military authorities who administer these lands, for whom they are mainly a troublesome job, call them “the territories“. To the religious nationalist settlers they are Judea and Samaria (Yehudah and Shomron in Hebrew), the historical core of the ancient Jewish nation." (p. 152) [52]
Alfred J. Kolatch. Inside Judaism: The Concepts, Customs, and Celebrations of the Jewish People, Jonathan David Company, 2006	Minority term for "the West Bank"	No indication	"[...] the building of Jewish communities in the West Bank – or Judea and Samaria, as Jews refer to it – commenced." (p.268) Comment: By far the broadest group any of the sources names as users of the terms. -MM
Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978	"Historical and geographical designation of the West Bank", imposed "by official fiat"	No indication	"On February 29, the popular term, ‘West Bank’, was by official fiat, abandoned in favour of ‘Judea and Samaria’ – the historical and geographical designation of the region and one not without nationalist and religious overtones of association with the Jewish people." (p.111)
David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985	"The West Bank"	"Generally called the “Occupied West Bank” in the United States"	"All but one of these outposts were established in the “Occupied West Bank”, as it is generally called in the United States, though the settlers who live in these areas prefer to use the term “Judea and Samaria” when speaking of the region. The latter term emphasizes the connection of their settlements to the ancient Land of Israel" (p.9)
Robert I. Friedman. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement, Random House, 1992	"Biblical names for the West Bank"	"Known as the West Bank"	* "[...] Judea and Samaria are part of the Land of Israel, said Drobles [cochairman of the settlement division of the World Zionist Organization], using the Biblical names for the West Bank." (p. xxiv) "Gush Emunim's rabbis proclaimed that settling [...] Judea and Samaria, otherwise known as the West Bank was part of the divine process [...]" (p. xxxiv)
Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide, Oneworld Publications, 2001 [53]	"The West Bank"	No indication	"The Israelis insisted on referring to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria". (p.161)
Thomas, Evan (Nov 1995). "Can Peace Survive?". Newsweek	"Biblical names for the West Bank"	No indication	"The religious settlers in the occupied territories believe that God gave them the West Bank - which they call by the Biblical names Judea and Samaria - and that no temporal leader can give the Promised Land away." [54]
Ian Lustick, The Riddle of Nationalism: The Dialectic of Religion and Nationalism in the Middle East, Logos, Vol.1, No-3, Summer 2002	Term for “the West Bank” that was imposed by Likud in Israeli news reports	No indication	"The terms “occupied territory” or “West Bank” were forbidden in news reports. Television and radio journalists were banned from initiating interviews with Arabs who recognized the PLO as their representative." (pp.18-44)
Ian S. Lustick, ‘'Israel's Dangerous Fundamentalists'’, in Foreign Policy, No. 68 Fall 1987	"The West Bank"	No indication	" Even as Gush Emunim seeks ways to institutionalize itself and its program, it already has created powerful myths for contemporary Israeli society. These myths, and the attitudes and policies they encourage, will mold Middle Eastern affairs for decades. Israelis now entering the army were born after the 1967 war. For them, the West Bank is Judaea and Samaria." (pp. 118-139 p.120)
Elie Podeh, Arab-Israeli Conflict in Israeli History Textbooks, 1948-2000, Information Age Publishing 2000	Term that superseded "The West Bank" in Israeli textbooks	No indication	"The narrative in the old textbooks was influenced by the exhilarating impact of Israel’s victory. [...] Similarly, the term West Bank was superceded by the terms Judea and Samaria, which emphasize the historical link of these areas to Jewish national history." (p.113)
Willard A. Beling, Middle East Peace Plans, Routledge, 1986	"Biblical terms used by Likud for the West Bank"	No indication	"Likud’s position on the West Bank has never been in doubt. It is clear cut and unambiguous. Judea and Samaria (the biblical terms used by Likud for the West Bank) are integral parts of Israel and are not negotiable in a peace settlement." (p.17)
Gadi Wolfsfeld, Media and Political Conflict: News from the Middle East, Cambridge University Press, 1997	"Historic biblical terms for the West Bank"	"Known to the rest of the world as the West Bank"	"The most powerful extra-parliamentary movement to mobilize against the agreement was the Council for the Settlements in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Judea, Samaria, and Gaza are the historic biblical terms for the areas known to the rest of the world as the West Bank and Gaza." (p.182)
Laura Zittrain Eisenberg, Neil Caplan, Negotiating Arab-Israeli Peace; Patterns, Problems, Possibilities, Indiana University Press, 1998	"Biblical terms for the West Bank" (preferred by the Likud)	No indication	"Unlike their rivals in the Labor Party, however, Likud leaders maintained an ideological commitment to holding on to Judea and Samaria (their preferred Biblical terms for the West Bank) conquered in the 1967 war." (p.31)
Shmuel Noah Eisenstadt, Jewish Civilization: The Jewish Historical Experience in a Comparative Perspective, SUNY Press, 1992	"Term taken from Mandatory times", "officially adopted to replace West Bank"	No indication	"Although there was no alteration of the legal status of the West Bank – of Judea and Samaria (a term taken from Mandatory times and officially adopted to replace West Bank or the territories) – despite vocal demands by extreme right-wing groups for the imposition of Israeli law in those areas or their outright annexation." (p.207)
Myron J. Aronoff, Israeli Visions and Divisions: Cultural Change and Political Conflict, Transaction Publishers, 1991	"Biblical terms for the West Bank" (introduced by the Likud)	No indication	"[...] “Judea and Samaria”, the biblical terms that the Likud government succeeded in substituting for what had previously been called by many the West Bank, the occupied territories, or simply the territories. The successful gaining of the popular acceptance of these terms was a prelude to gaining popular acceptance of the government’s settlement policies." (p.10)
Robert Zelnick, "Israel's Unilaterialism: Beyond Gaza", Hoover Press, 2006	Minority term for "The West Bank"	Not used in most of the world	"...] Judea and Samaria, what most of the world refers to as the West Bank." (p.1)
Mark A. Tessler, "A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict"	"Biblical designations for the West Bank"	No indication	"[Israelis committed to permanent retention of the West Bank and Gaza] referred to the former territory by its Biblical designations of Judea and Samaria, terms employed for the deliberate purpose of asserting that the territorial claims of Jews predate those of Arabs, and also to create a subtle but important symbolic distinction between East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank." (p.466)
Palestinefacts.org (Israeli website)	"Terms used up to about 1950"	"Near total exclusion"	"[...] the phrase "West Bank" has stuck, and is used to the near total exclusion of any other. [...] Judea and Samaria have been known by these names for unbroken centuries, and were registered as such on official documents and maps, by international institutions and in authoritative reference books right up to about 1950." [55]
Haaretz (Israeli newspaper)	"Samaria is the biblical name for the northern West Bank." [56]	No indication
yNetNews.com (Israeli website)	"Judea and Samaria are the Biblical names for the areas comprising the West Bank. Samaria refers to northern area and Judea refers to the southern area, with Jerusalem approximately in the center. [...] The West Bank today has a population of approximately 2.3 million Palestinians and close to 400,000 Israeli settlers." [57]	No indication	No indication
David Singer "Myanmar and Israel - Fighting the Semantic Wars", International Analyst Network (website) 2007	"The area captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967"	"Only some right wing Jewish media in Israel and abroad"	"Only some right wing Jewish media in Israel and abroad now consistently and repeatedly use “Judea and Samaria” [...] The international media have adopted the term “West Bank” without demur in virtually every editorial piece they publish." [58]
User:Jayjg and a few other editors		5-6 instances of individual non-Israelis using the term for the modern area [59]

Ashley kennedy3's list

Usage ."the term is sometimes used within Israel; predominantly by "fanatical Jewish chauvinists" for political motives, to describe Illegal Jewish Israeli settlements within the Occupied Palestinian Territories." Shown by the term not being applied to Tel Aviv District.(Israel insider Ma'ale Adumim larger than Tel Aviv, I don't think so) Gush Emunim apply the term to the West Bank as a geopolitical manoeuvre devoted to an ideology "greater land of Israel".(Ha'aretz) The terms "Judea and Samaria" are also highly controversial in Israeli society itself, and are often employed specifically as a collective reference to the illegal Israeli settlements in that area, historically and presently, especially by Jewish settlers and their supporters.(Jpost Arutz Sheva) "Newsweek Nov 20 1995" [...] it stretches to the fanatical Jewish chauvinists who want to expel the Arabs from the land they call Judea and Samaria--a territory that, depending on how you read the Bible, could stretch past the Jordan as far as the Euphrates. Says Sternhell: "The minimum the religious Zionists can live with is the West Bank." "Newsweek Nov 13 1995" The religious settlers in the occupied territories believe that God gave them the West Bank--which they call by the Biblical names Judea and Samaria-and that no temporal leader can give the Promised Land away. Left-wing Israelis prefer "HaGada HaMa'aravit" (הגדה המערבית "The West Bank" in Hebrew) or "Hashetahim Hakvushim" (השטחים הכבושים, The Occupied Territories). Many Arab Palestinians object to this term as a rejection of their claim to the land. Nevertheless, the term al-Yahudiyya was-Samarah is used by Arab Christians in reference to the Bible.(Murqus, Sa'īd. Tafsīr kalimāt al-Kitāb al-Muqaddas, Cairo, 1996, in Arabic)Jewish daily As used by JVL in "The College of Judea & Samaria" where the college is described As a demonstratively Zionist institution, the College has two key requirements: every student must study one course per semester on some aspect of Judaism, Jewish heritage or Land of Israel studies, and the Israeli flag must be displayed in every classroom, laboratory and auditorium on campus.JVL

APCR again used by right wing extremists for West Bank.

Now lets' look at what the official name of the geopolitical area is:

US officially designates the West Bank the occupied territories....[60] Library of Congress [61]

Dore gold wants Disputed territories...[62] B'Tselem occupied territories [63]

Britain's position...Occupied territories. [64][65]

Ireland Occupied territories...[66]

UN occupied territories..[67]

Red Cross; The ICRC in Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Autonomous Territories [68] indexed under Palestine, interesting.

and yet wiki uses a term that is controversial in Israel.

RS sources; Gershom Gorenberg OT

David Kretzmer OT

Kitty Warnock OT

Felicia Langer OT

Idith Zertal, Akiva Eldar, Vivian Eden, Vivian Sohn Eden OT

Stephen C Pelletiere OT

Eyal Benvenisti OT

Joost R. Hiltermann OT

Emma Playfair OT

Erica Lang OT

Esther Rosalind Cohen OT

Linda Bevis OT

John J. Mearsheimer, Stephen M. Walt OT

Paul Hunt OT

Ghāzī Khurshīd, Ibrahim Abid OT

Lynne Rosengrant Franks OT

Neil Alger DT

William B. Quandt DT

Colin Shindler; Judea and Samaria; Used in conjunction with the right wing ultra nationalist religious movement.

Joseph Telushkin JS Judea, Samaria, and Gaza: Views on the Present and Future By Daniel Judah Elazar Published by American Enterprise Institute, 1982 ISBN 0844734594

Term used according to the Israeli settlement policy in an effort to create ‘facts’ that would eliminate once and for all the possibility of repartitioning the land west of the Jordan river. PP 3 and 18

Religious Fundamentalism in Developing Countries By Santosh C. Saha, Thomas K. Carr Contributor Santosh C. Saha Published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001 ISBN 0313311552, p 71 guess how it is used?

Free Speech and National Security: Most of the Papers Were Delivered at the Conference on ..., Held in Jerusalem in December 1987 By Shimon Shetreet Published by Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1990 ISBN 0792310306

Judea Samaria used to describe the Israeli settlements and West bank Gaza termed territories.

As with the Britannica, the article can be about the Historical Biblical myths or about the modern area. If it is used for the modern area then it should be noted that the term is used by extremist right wingers (as in a health warning) who openly talk of being against the Israeli government.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica starts straight off with "historical region, Palestine Hebrew Shomron" making it clear that it is a historical region not the new politicised region. A clear distinction should be made between the two.

Conclusions:

The name "Samaria" is used in two entirely separate ways.

1. When referring to the Biblical area. (sometimes then abused by religious fanatics see use 2.)
2. Used by "fanatical Jewish chauvinists" as a means of indicating the Occupied Palestinian Territories and or the settlements.

The article should therefore read:

"the term is sometimes applied contentiously within Israel; predominantly by 'fanatical Jewish chauvinists' for political motives, to illegal Jewish Israeli settlements within the Occupied Palestinian Territories."

...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)