Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs massacre

De-POVing

I have begun to de-POV this article, from head to toe, begining with the concisifying of the intro. I would L-O-V-E LOVE some help with this process, and anyone who wants to help is invited to post here, and we can get the ball rolling. My first step was to neutralise some of the language, in order to avoid minor linguistics-related confrontations. For example, I changed the word 'often' (in "...often called the Hebron Masacre") to 'also'- simply, yet elegantly, avoiding conjecture. I got rid of the extraneous details regarding space alotted to each religion, as this has no place in an introduction, and hardly any place in this particular article. I also put in the term 'mass-murder', which may sound inflamatory, but is used by the USA Bureau of Justice Statistics to define "...the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event." I also created a seperate article for the mosque itself, where its religious importance (and architectural minutae) can be explored in a non-massacre context. I would also like to put forth a caveat: if someone sees fit to alter the changes I have made, without first giving an explaination on this talk page, I will consider getting this page lcoked to IP users at first, and eventually to all users if problems persist.--Ringmaster j 02:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Violent death of Goldstein

This section of the text strikes me as odd:

"He waited for the worshippers to bow towards Mecca before opening fire on them with a Galil assault rifle, murdering 29 Palestinians and injuring 125. After being subdued with metal poles and a fire extinguisher, Goldstein was beaten to death by survivors. Even after he could no longer threaten them, they continued beating him with shoes and sticks. His face was so mutilated that even Goldstein's brother had trouble identifying him. The pathologist who later examined him found a smashed-in skull, extensive brain damage, broken ribs and left arm."

If the violent killing of the culprit is graphically described, then why should not the article describe how 'round after round penetrated the praying congregation, then, having reloaded his assult rifle for the Xth time, the firing continued..' (or anything similair). The sentence "Even after he could no longer.." and following sentences should perhaps be removed and replaced by "...then G. was violently killed by survivor of his assault", or an equally graphic account of Goldstein's actions should be added. As stands now, that section of the article is close to POV and is perhaps irrelevant.

The following is a quote from Wikipedia:Point_of_view#Assuming_the_obvious:

"Something else that you need to watch out for are obvious facts which are not necessarily obvious to people from other areas. Examples include the level of support a political movement has or does not have, the names of the movements, demographic facts, geographic facts."

Any ideas? Scoo 14:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, I'm removing it.--Doron 06:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

This article only describes the facts in graphic detail. It is completely unbiased and non point of view. Any complaints of "bias" are simply a way for Jew or Israel haters to disguise their attempts to censur the TRUTH. All of the sources for this information are documented and 100 percent legitimate, so don't even think about messing with it. Just because it doesn't fit in with the far-left's politcal agenda doesn't mean it should be removed. "round after round penetrated the praying congregation, then, having reloaded his assult rifle for the Xth time, the firing continued" has been added to the article, as suggested. More detail is always good, even if it's violent and bloody. If you have any more detail about Goldstein's violent actions, please add them... but don't remove the facts simply because they don't fit the Palestinian politcal agenda. It is absolutely important to show the full story; the violence was not limited to the murderer Goldstein. Some of his victims were also burtally violent, with no regard for the sanctity of human life just like Goldstein. Killing him for self defense is necessary, but their response went well beyond that, and it's a documented fact. That is not to say the murderer and the victim are equally bad. No judgement is given in this article, it is left for the reader to decide after reading the facts. Feel free to add more details on Goldstein's violent actions. However, if the PLO's public relations department doesn't like the truth they can make another page on their version of the story... (unsigned by 68.50.192.218 on 18 November)

The graphic unencyclopedic material added contributes nothing. The detailed description of Goldstein's death, compared to the brief description of his victim's death at his hands, is terribly unbalanced.--Doron 06:49, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree fully with Doron. beaten to death say by itself that it was violent. You don't beat anyone to death gently. Scoo 11:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag

This is one of the most disgustingly biased pages I have ever seen in Wikipedia, and that is saying a lot. --Zero 05:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Much of the "information" in this article comes from the book "Did or did not Dr. Baruch Goldstein massacre 29 Arabs?" written by Rabbi Chaim Simmons of Kiryat Arba, a well-known far-right extremist. It shows. --Zero 05:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Though I can't answer this as I am not familiar with the events, is the statement in 'Aftermath' perhaps obsolete? (according to Cave_of_the_Patriarchs#Current situation IDF control the site.) Scoo 11:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I actually agree with Zero. This is a biased article ...What is so strange to me is that Zero clearly see th bias here but is unable to see it in nakba and other such articles. I guess if the conetnt of this article does (according to zero) show it was written by "far-right extremist" I wonder what can we learn about Zero from the articles he edit ?Zeq 19:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

What specifically do you view as POV? Let us make a list and reach a consensus. Aiden 02:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Where to start? The whole article is little more than a summary of the article of Goldstein-apologist Simons. --Zero 10:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Please explain exactly what you have an issue with. I see nothing but an account of events. Are you saying some are false? Please list what specific sections of the article you view as POV. Aiden 17:34, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

For example, the areas listed in the intro (to an impossible 6 decimal places!) are irrelevant to the story and are only present for polemic purposes. The "aftermath" section consists almost entirely of Arab-bashing. Many of the claimed citations to the Shamgar inquiry seem to be to evidence given to the inquiry and not to the findings of the inquiry, so we don't even know if the inquiry rejected the evidence. Can anyone quote the inquiry concluding that Goldstein was killed after being subdued rather than in the process of subduing him? Etc Etc. --Zero 10:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The "Aftermath" section does seem to be highly selective. It would be nice if it were better sourced as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I will begin researching some additional sources and verifiable accounts of events to make the article more balanced in that respect. Aiden 22:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi Dr Chaim Simons book is a perfectly valid, well researched and well documented source. One of the few I might add.

The points to be made should be made; that the Israeli Government does not hold all people to the same standard and did not address this event in a balanced way. The motive was not explored, many witnesses were not called and many of the people involved in the Commission were blatantly biased.

The evidence of a planned attack, by many of the people in that Mosque, that they were armed, that plans had been distributed in advance, should be taken into account, especially if it affects public perceptions. The Public has a Right to Know. The Public has a Need to Know.

Whether the Rabbi is “Right wing” or not is irrelevant. His book is accurate and valid and the facts are not changed. Abadon 15:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

How do you know? Do you have a copy of the commission records so that you can check it? --Zero 22:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Haven't had the time to read the whole discussion, though I too must add the the entire article seems a little biased: there is very little descripton of the massacre itself, and any mention of the aftermath has no mention of israeli supporters of Goldstein, and has too much focus on "angry arabs". --Nargos 21:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at the section headings? Do you think there might be slightly less ...hmm... biased? words that could be used as section headings? "Carnage" is the kind of title you find in a newspaper, not an encyclopedia. 128.135.121.237 11:30, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

References Format

References and footnotes for this article were badly misorganized. I organized them based on the psuedo-footnotes already included, but was left with quite a few sources that aren't clearly referenced in the article. These include:

• A Study of the Findings of the Shamgar Commission, by Rabbi Chaim Simons of Kiryat Arba
• Israeli Police, Judea and Samaria District - Legal Perspective

Minutes of the Shamgar Commission are in container 7648 gimmel at the Israel State Archives. Special thanks to Dr. Chaim Simons for his enormous effort, going through over 2000 pages of minutes of the open sessions.

• [1] Minutes of Shamgar Commission pp. 518-19; Report of Shamgar Commission p. 28
• [2] Minutes of Shamgar Commission p. 927
• [3] "Hamas planned a Massacre of Jews in the Cave of Machpelah on Purim", Yom Layom, 10 April 1994, p. 1
• [4] Minutes of Shamgar Commission p. 930; Submission by Carl Bishop, no. 23, Exhibit 1137, (Israel State Archive 7647/3-26/gimmel); Submission by Reuben Margules (via Menachem Gurman), no. 68, Exhibit 1137, (Israel State Archive 7647/3-28/gimmel); Submission by Joseph Gottlieb (via Naomi Hochstein), no. 108, Exhibit 1137, (Israel State Archive 7647/3-28/gimmel)
• [5] Minutes of Shamgar Commission pp. 1653, 1712-13
• [6] Witnesses: Freddie Kuskus, Operations Officer of Border Police Unit in Hebron, and Moshe Givati, former Brigade Commander in Hebron. (Minutes p. 892, Minutes p. 1599)
• [7] Memorandum to High Commissioner of Palestine from Jewish Community of Hebron, reprinted in Davar, 8 September 1929, p. 2
• [8] Minutes of Shamgar Commission p. 218
• [9] Minutes of Shamgar Commission pp. 38, 219, 245, 431, 450, 550, 698, 891, 944
• [10] Duplicated collated statements of local residents, op. cit.
• [11] Minutes of Shamgar Commission pp. 203 gimmel, 561, 579; Evidence of Benny Binyamin to Israel Police, Cave of Machpelah, 3 March 1994, Exhibit 37, (ISA 7645/1-1/gimmel); see also Reports from Logs, op. cit.
• [12] Report of Shamgar Commission p. 15; Timetable of Events, Exhibit 14, (ISA 7645/1-1/gimmel)
• [13] Report of Shamgar Commission p. 1

If anyone can put these where they need to be please do so. Aiden 06:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact, most of these should not be in the article at all. Nobody here has ever consulted them. They were just copied slavishly from the same article by Goldstein-supporter Simons. Since we link to that article, we do not need to link to the citations that that article claims in support. --Zero 09:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"Background"

Dear gidonb

I notice that you have deleted material of another user which I restored with its full sources. This particular material was in this article in its entirety from 9 August 2005 to 20 December 2005, when it was then removed by a user on the grounds of it being "hearsay and garbage". I fail to see how fully documented material from the Shamgar Commission can be so classified!

You attempt to justify your "deletion" by describing this material as a "conspiracy theory". I would be grateful if you could please explain and justify your deletion. Thank you.

Simonschaim 19:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear gidonb

On 11 June 2006, I made a verbatim restoration of some deleted material together with authoritative references which showed that it was not "hearsay and garbage." However WITHIN HOURS you had completely deleted this material. I immediately asked you to explain and justify your deletion. OVER A WEEK has now gone by and you have made no response whatsoever. In addition, no other user has come out in support of this deletion of yours.

I therefore consider myself fully justified in restoring this material.

Simonschaim 19:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Simonschaim, sorry for my belated answer. The reason why I deleted the text was in the edit summary. To the best of my knowledge this is not the background to the massacre as the research committee concluded. It is your personal take on the massacre, illustrated with bits and pieces of information from testimonies brought before the committee, including by Jewish residents of Hebron and Qiryat Arba. These legitimate testimonies are recorded in the minutes of the committee. They do not carry special weight unless the committee concludes so. Including bits and pieces of information that fit into your conspiracy theory as the background to the massacre is blatant pov. I stand behind my own edit summary and summaries by others are not necessarily relevant to my edits. Only sometimes. I ask you again, please respect our policies WP:NPOV and WP:NOR while editing here. At the webforums and your own website where you promote such theories you are free to write whatever you like. gidonb 01:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Gidon,

As long as the information is valid and is indeed quoted within the commission, it should be a part of this article. If you believe that it is original research or that it miscontrues the events as described by the commission, please correct the page, but do not delete the information, only put it in context.

Guy Montag 02:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Gidonb

You are basing your deletion solely on the fact that the material that I restored to the article "was not the background to the massacre as the research committee [Shamgar Commission] concluded."

Unfortunately, the way this Commission conducted its activities has much to be desired. Although the Israeli law on "Commissions of Inquiry" clearly states that should a situation arise where the name and honour of a deceased person could be harmed by the results of such an Inquiry, then the relatives of such a person have to be informed and given the opportunity to put forward a defence, including the right to cross examine witnesses [(Israel) Commissions of Inquiry Law 5729-1968 para.15 and amendment no.2 5739-1979 para.3] Despite this law, the members of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's family were NEVER given such an opportunity.

It also goes without say that judges or members of a Commission of Inquiry may not decide on the guilt of a person until they have heard all the evidence. Yet, in this Commission of Inquiry, the majority of its members were already calling Dr. Baruch Goldstein a "murderer" before they had heard all the evidence. One of its members, Judge Abed el-Rahman Zouabi, who is a professional judge of the State of Israel, used this term from the FIRST DAY of the hearings and in the course of the hearings used it no fewer than 17 times in just the open sessions. [Shamgar Commission: Minutes (Commission member Judge Zouabi) pp.100, 124, 188, 335, 436, 465, 574, 607, 789, 869, 1151, 1164, 1173, 1202, 1367, 1425, 1675; (Commission member Lieutenant General (res.) Moshe Levy) pp.370, 482, 719, 1679, 1715, 1782; (Commission member Professor Menachem Ya'ari) pp.1295, 1296]

A parallel to this would be a person being brought to trial for murder, not being allowed to present his defence, and, in addition, most (or indeed even one) of the judges calling him a "murderer" before hearing all the evidence. It goes without say that a Higher Court would immediately disqualify such a hearing by the Lower Court.

Thus in the act of Dr. Baruch Goldstein, we have to look at ALL the activities going on in Hebron at that period and then decide whether they are relevant to Baruch Goldstein's actions.

Here are the facts with their sources:

1) No fewer than NINE OFFICERS of the Israel defence establishment gave evidence under oath to the Shamgar Commission of an impending attack by Arabs against the Jews in Hebron at that period. [Shamgar Commission: Minutes pp.69-70, 83-84, 125, 136, 198-99, 242, 453, 926-27, 2010-11, 2052]

2) Ruthie Moshe gave evidence under oath in a court case that when she told a Hebron Arab worker (who at the time was working in her house), that she was going to be in the CAVE OF MACHPELAH on PURIM, he replied "Don't go to the Cave of Machpelah. Go to Kiryat Arba. It is safer." [Baruch Ha-Gever trial, Jerusalem Magistrates Court, 1997, Minutes p.57]

3) Three days before Purim, a meeting was called at a few hours' notice by Major General Shaul Mofaz, Commander of the Judea and Samaria Division, for the Mayor and Councillors of Kiryat Arba. At this meeting Mofaz informed them that a terrorist organisation was planning to execute a serious attack during the coming days. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibits 217 aleph p.6, 678]

4) The cry "Itbach al-Yahood" ("Slaughter the Jews") by a multitude of Arabs was heard on several occasions in the Cave of Machpelah in the days preceding Purim. [Shamgar Commission: Minutes pp.1653, 1712-13]

5) The Arabs had distributed a leaflet in Hebron saying that on Purim or the day after - the stress being on Purim - an Arab terrorist attack would take place in Hebron. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibits, Reports from Logs of Operation Rooms of 2 separate Israeli Army units] The existence of this leaflet was also reported in the Shamgar Report. [Shamgar Commission: Report pp.79, 223]

6) At that period, the Arab residents of Hebron were notified by means of leaflets, loudspeakers and inscriptions on walls to stock up with food in anticipation of a long curfew which would follow a gigantic attack against the Jews of Hebron by the Hamas. [Shamgar Commission: Exhibit 680] This warning was also broadcast over the local Mosques' loud speaker system.[Shamgar Commission: Exhibits 1137(42)]

7) Warnings were given to the Israeli guards at the Cave of Machpelah that on the days immediately before Purim, the Arabs might try and smuggle explosives into that place.[Shamgar Commission: Report p.28; Minutes pp.518-19]

8) Almost all the 800 Arabs that Purim morning entered the Cave of Machpelah by the East Gate where they knew that the metal detector [which would detect smuggled weapons] was broken, although there was nothing to stop them from going through the Main Gate. [Shamgar Commission: Report p.15; Minutes pp.203 bet-gimmel]

9) Because of the unprecedented large number of Arabs, very few of the men and none of the women were searched. In fact the regulations forbade the searching of women, even by women soldiers. [Shamgar Commission: Report p.18; Minutes p.203 gimmel] On this the Shamgar Report stated: "No-one was authorised to waive the inspection of individuals entering the Cave [of Machpelah] especially at a time when a warning of a possible Hamas attack had been issued." [Shamgar Commission: Report p.229]

10) There were various reports of finding weapons in the Cave of Machpelah in the Hall where the Arabs had been.(A check showed that they did not belong to Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the soldiers or Jews then present in the Cave of Machpelah.)[Shamgar Commission: Report pp.46, 59-60, 223; Exhibits 1137(1), 1137(52)]

11) There is also other material but since it could be considered as hearsay, I won't bring it here.

In view of all the above, it would be an amazing coincidence for these facts to be unconnected with Dr. Baruch Goldstein's actions!

I should like to hear the opinions of other users on the above. Thank you.

Simonschaim 11:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Most of this was already answered in the above posting. You are free to personally disagree with the judicial commission that researched the massacre, but we have to apply Wikipedia's policies of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:NOT. gidonb 14:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

A week has now passed since I last wrote on this Talk page (19 June). Yet during this entire week no user has come out in support of Gidonb. On the contrary, it has been recommended that I put this factual material of mine of 19 June in the actual Article. I am therefore putting "Facts 1 to 9" together with their sources in the Article under the heading "Beforehand". If there can be an "Aftermath" there can be a "Beforehand".

Simonschaim 12:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Recommended by whom and where? All responses to this item above are mine. An extremely selective choice of materials supporting conspiracy does not work well with the Wikipedia policies cited above, however you turn it. Perhaps you misunderstood someone's polite answer again for support? gidonb 13:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the letter I received from Guy Montag: Baruch Goldstein Thank you for the wonderful letter. I suggest you add it to the page itself. I am not well versed on the Baruch Goldstein incident, but I did hear that a commission collaborated on the evidence given by Kach. I hope to visit Israel within the next year. Best Regards, Guy Montag 17:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Simonschaim" The "wonderful letter" he refers to is a copy of the above letter which I sent you on 19 June.

If you consider my material to be "extremely selective" you are welcome to ADD yours and I undertake not to delete it. However I feel you have no right to delete (and other users use much stronger term for your "deletions" - and this is not only of my material but of numerous other contributors) material which you do not like.

Simonschaim 15:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, your additions create a huge WP:POV bias to this article, in coordinance with the POV you have tried to push here and you promote elsewhere on Web. The collection of the infobits that you add to articles here is not only pov, but clear WP:OR, also if you have worked your way through all the minutes of the judicial commission to find only a few indications supporting the conspiracy theory that you try to push. Please read WP:NOT and my earlier comments, here and on Baruch Goldstein. gidonb 13:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with gidon. Simonschaim, it's not so much the information that doesn't work, it's the way it's presented. "No fewer than NINE OFFICERS..." That is clearly trying to prove a point and is unencyclopedic. If you'd like the information included, take what is pertinent and present it in a neutral point of view with proper citation, of course. For instance, do not say "No fewer tha NINE OFFICERS..." Say "According to testimony given before the Shamgar Comission, nine IDF officers claimed..." Wikipedia has a policy of X says Y about Z. Not to mention, your contribution really ruins the article style. Try to avoid numbered lists if possible, and make sure you follow the same reference citation format that is used in the rest of the article. —Aiden 14:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Bus bombings in aftermath

I moved this to a seperate bullet point. Can someone tell me if the journal or the perpetrating organizations laid a connection with the massacre? gidonb 14:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify: If no connection is established, I will remove the item. I consider either of the above sufficient. I am also willing to listen to other possible links. gidonb 13:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Material from the Shamgar Commission

Dear Tom

I was rather upset to see that you repeatedly delete my material in this Article. The courteous procedure is to write to me on this Talk page in an intellectual manner detailing your reasons why you think my material is inappropriate for this Article. We can then correspond together on it and see if we can come to a consensus. Instead, you are hiding behind such vague words as “theories”.

For that matter, much of the other material in this Article is “theories”. For example, it is only a theory that the things listed under “Aftermath” are related to this Purim act in the Cave. Had the Arabs before that Purim never attacked Jews in Hebron and only started immediately after that Purim, one could then reasonably say that this act was the cause of such attacks. But sadly this is not the case. Arabs have been killing Jews in Hebron for nearly a century - Remember 1929! In the months before that Purim, 3 Jews were shot dead in the Hebron area by Arabs and many other Jews wounded. This act on Purim certainly gave them a good excuse to CONTINUE with their attacks on Jews. And excuses they indeed do use! It was in September 2000 that Ariel Sharon went on to the Temple Mount. Arabs immediately made attacks on Jews blaming it on the provocation of Sharon. However investigations made afterwards showed that they had been planning such attacks well before Sharon’s visit and they just used this visit as an excuse.

According to your philosophy Tom, you should likewise be deleting most of the items appearing under “Aftermath”. Why have you not done so?

I shall now go through the material I put in this article, item by item.

• • • (INTRODUCTION)
    • “Alternatively, it has been alleged that Goldstein acted to pre-empt a massacre of Jews by Arabs planned for that morning in the Cave.” Just before this Goldstein is described in this very same Article as a “mass-murderer”. This is only a theory. No Court of Law has ever found him guilty of murder. Any “trial” he had has been by the media and the politicians! I grant that it is legitimate to quote this theory in this Article, PROVIDED that the theory that he did a pre-emptive strike to prevent a massacre of Jews by Arabs is ALSO mentioned (and there is much circumstantial evidence to support this theory). Just to say he was a mass-murderer is POV. However by ALSO mentioning the pre-emptive strike, the matter becomes NPOV.
    • “At 5 A.M. on the morning of the Purim holiday, 800 Palestinians passed through the East Gate, where the metal detector had been broken for some time.” [my addition is “where the metal detector had been broken for some time.”] As the Article originally was, the reader will not attach any particular importance to the fact that the Arabs entered by the East Gate. The Shamgar Commission did however see a significance in this. The Members visited the Cave and wrote an Official Minute on their visit. [Minutes pp.203 bet-gimmel] They pointed that the metal detector at this East Gate had been broken for several months (and so obviously the Arabs knew about this) and that ALMOST ALL the 800 Arabs passed through this East Gate, even though there was nothing to stop them from entering via the Main Gate.
    • “After his weapon had been taken away, Goldstein was beaten to death by the Moslem worshippers.” This is the wording in two places in the Report of the Shamgar Commission [Report p.15, 47-48] and is thus more accurate that the original wording in this Article.

• • • “SHAMGAR COMMISSION

In its Report, the Commission wrote "No-one was authorised to waive the inspection of individuals entering the Cave especially at a time when a warning of a possible Hamas attack had been issued." According to testimony given before the Commission, nine IDF officers claimed that they had received intelligence information of an impending attack by Arabs against the Jews in Hebron at that period. The Report also refers to warnings given to the IDF guards at the Cave that on the days immediately before Purim, that the Arabs might try and smuggle explosives into the Cave, and that a leaflet had been distributed by the Hamas in Hebron warning of such an attack.” [ I meticulously documented the sources for this material from the Shamgar Commission in the Reference section of this Article] A significant amount of time was spent by this Commission in studying what was occurring in Hebron immediately before that Purim. They did not consider it irrelevant to the subject and, even in their Report they made a number of references to the warning received before Purim of an Arab attack on the Jews of Hebron. The selective points from the Shamgar Report which had been mentioned in this Article made it a POV. I consider the point I made restores it to a NPOV.

Tom, Will you please give me FULL answers to ALL the points I made above. We can then discuss together whether my material should or should not be included in this Article.

With best wishes

Simonschaim 09:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Simon, let me summarize the "Sham"gar commission report in its simplest terms...... We are not to blame. Stop. How could we know a Jew was going to kill Arabs when we were more concern about the Arab threat. Stop. There were a number of security breakdowns but they are explainable and will be fixed in the future. Stop. Arabs had plans to attack Jews. Stop. We are not to blame for this attack. Stop. Arabs had planned to kill Jews. Stop. Yadda yadda yadda. Stop......NO WHERE IN THE REPORT DOES IT SAY WHY GOLDSTEIN DID WHAT HE DID. NO WHERE DO THEY PROVIDE A THEORY FOR WHAT HE DID....NO WHERE DOES IT GIVE ANY SPECIFICS (ie where or when) OF THE PLANNED ATTACK BY ARABS ON JEWS.

My objection is to the use of words like "alleged". By whom?? I know that is your POV. The commission NEVER EVER EVER EVER said that. PERIOD. And to some how imply that is POV/original research.

If there is ANY material that you feel is NOT sourced, please REMOVE it.

The metal detectors weren't working, so what? If the Arabs had weapons, why didn't they open fire on Goldstein instead of smashing his skull in?? Why does any of this matter?? Why am I spending time responding to this or even trying to edit this article so it contains ONLY established facts??

I am going on vacation for three weeks on Saturday so please do what you will with this article.

I live in a TOTALLY different world and don't blame people a bit for their perspectiive based on all the violence going on in the ME. I seriously have no beef with you. I just feel that a totally unprovable theory is being introduced into this article's HEADER. Maybe a section under theories about his motives, ect. would be more appropriate...Again, why am I trying to defend this article?? I should just stick to Rhode Island, Quakerism and the Philadelphia Eagles. Have a pleasant day. Cheers! --Tom 14:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tom

I hope you had an enjoyable holiday. I did not want to take advantage of the fact that you were unavailable and so I have held up my reply to your latest message on this Talk page and also the Talk page of "Cave of the Patriarchs". Presumably because of lack of time due to your preparations for your holiday, you were unable to answer almost all the points I made.

The main point you did make was that the Shamgar Commission (in their PUBLISHED report) did not link Dr. Baruch Goldstein's actions with what was going on in Hebron at that period. However we must view such an omission with great caution. Let me repeat what I wrote above under "Background":

"Unfortunately, the way this Commission conducted its activities has much to be desired. Although the Israeli law on "Commissions of Inquiry" clearly states that should a situation arise where the name and honour of a deceased person could be harmed by the results of such an Inquiry, then the relatives of such a person have to be informed and given the opportunity to put forward a defence, including the right to cross examine witnesses [(Israel) Commissions of Inquiry Law 5729-1968 para.15 and amendment no.2 5739-1979 para.3] Despite this law, the members of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's family were NEVER given such an opportunity.

"It also goes without say that judges or members of a Commission of Inquiry may not decide on the guilt of a person until they have heard all the evidence. Yet, in this Commission of Inquiry, the majority of its members were already calling Dr. Baruch Goldstein a "murderer" before they had heard all the evidence. One of its members, Judge Abed el-Rahman Zouabi, who is a professional judge of the State of Israel, used this term from the FIRST DAY of the hearings and in the course of the hearings used it no fewer than 17 times in just the open sessions. [Shamgar Commission: Minutes (Commission member Judge Zouabi) pp.100, 124, 188, 335, 436, 465, 574, 607, 789, 869, 1151, 1164, 1173, 1202, 1367, 1425, 1675; (Commission member Lieutenant General (res.) Moshe Levy) pp.370, 482, 719, 1679, 1715, 1782; (Commission member Professor Menachem Ya'ari) pp.1295, 1296]

"A parallel to this would be a person being brought to trial for murder, not being allowed to present his defence, and, in addition, most (or indeed even one) of the judges calling him a "murderer" before hearing all the evidence. It goes without say that a Higher Court would immediately disqualify such a hearing by the Lower Court.

"Thus in the act of Dr. Baruch Goldstein, we have to look at ALL the activities going on in Hebron at that period and then decide whether they are relevant to Baruch Goldstein's actions."

Tom, I would therefore like you to please answer ALL the points I have made above and also in the Talk page of "Cave of the Patriarchs." Only in such a way will it be possible to justify the deletions of material from my contributions to the various articles on this subject.

Best Wishes

Simonschaim 09:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Hi, I am back, but my internet was down, my satelite dish was down and I have to watch a 4 and 6 year old by myself this week so we are off to the pool so I will not be responding as I would like. Please edit any article as you like. It really isn't a big deal to me or in the scope of things. I wish you and all citizens of the Middle East peace and hope the rockets stop falling. I hope Israel kicks the crap out of Hazbolah and ends their bullshit tactics. Take care! --Tom 15:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fleshing out the bullet points

The bullet points in this article provide a pretty good skeleton on which to hang some text, but by themselves they really aren't much more than a basic outline. I've tried to flesh out the basic info about the massacre itself including some info from contemporary press reports. If people are happy with the way this looks, I'll see if I can flesh out a bit more of the succeeding sections. (You might also want to take a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style to see the guidelines that I've tried to implement here.) -- ChrisO 21:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

U.S. Influence/American Jewish reaction in "Diaspora" Section

This topic is way outside my area of expertise, so I think I can speak as a simple reader with no dog in this fight. Knowing next to nothing about this massacre, I read this article and had a couple of concerns.

My comment is only that the claims Kach is a U.S. funded movement prompted by the American "gun culture" is a bit unclear. Do these claimants mean that it is an American government-funded movement or one funded by right-wing American Jews, Gentile "anti-Palestinians," or what? Did Chaim Bermant expand on what he meant by "gun culture" or which Americans he meant?

Also, I find it hard to believe that no Jewish publication in the United States failed to condemn the attack. The broad generalization that American Jewish publications supported the attack overtly or by their silence is odd.

Thanks. Marklemagne 01:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Section for "popular response" needed after "Israeli government"

eg. one prominent Israeli said: "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." - Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 at the funeral of Baruch Goldstein. [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1] PalestineRemembered 19:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That quote came from exactly who you said- One person, it doesn't mean anything.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 19:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Bias

This is quite a skinny article. How about his side of the story? No hebrew speakers here, that have read up on the subject? Chavatshimshon 04:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I know the whole story behind Goldstein... I'm not going to add it, because some Anti-Kahanist will just come and delete it. Simply Goldstein attemted to prevent an attack on Purim from those Muslims.

numbers

BS"D

The number of people killed and wounded, plus Goldstein, is not possible based on the number of rounds he had. 4 magazines of 35 rounds each, 4*35=140. According to this he had to have shot at least 155 rounds, if not more. either the number murdered and injured is wrong, or the number of magazines and rounds is wrong. --Shuliavrumi 00:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we/you/I have reliable sources for either piece of material? It seems that the number of dead would be easier to source than the amount of bulletts he was carring proir to entering the cave. Anyways, --Tom 12:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Presumably those injured as a result of the panic this would have caused (knocked down, trampled, etc.) would also be properly counted as casualties, even if they weren't struck with a bullet?

How Many Wounded?

Is it 125 or 150? Because here it says 125 but on Baruch Goldstein's bio page it states 150 wounded.

Heatsketch 01:19, July 3rd 2007

Reservist

Israel has near-universal conscription, and upon completion of duty, all soldiers are placed into the ranks of the reserves, until age 55 (for men. Women are reservists until their mid-20s, sometimes longer). This means that virually any Israeli male can be described as an "off duty reservist". Goldstein was not on active reserve duty when he commited his crime, and so it is improper to describe him as an "off-duty reservist", just as we don't describe Gal Fridman, for example, as one. Isarig

From what I can see, the guy you mention doesn't go windsurfing in his uniform. I also doubt his windsurf board was army-issued. Goldstein was given his gun through his service in the army, was dressed in his reserve uniform, and was scheduled for promotion to major. Virtually all Israelis are not reservists, the standard statistic is 400,000, Israel's population is over 7 million. You suggestion that he shouldn't be called an army reservist because he "was not on active reserve duty when he commited his crime" also makes no sense logically. Amoruso claims that "we all know what is being implied here", presumably he is suggesting that this is part of a conspiracy theory I'm trying to puch that the IDF was involved in the massacre. It isn't, it is because Goldstein's status as an army reservist is a vital component of our understanding of him and the shooting.Nwe 15:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

he committed a crime while wearing a uniform, but was not on reserve duty at the time. It is irrelevant that he is in the reserves. As virtually all Israeli males are. Feel free to add the fact that he wore a uniform to the description of the massacre- that explain how he was let through by the guards but stop implying this is some officialh act of the Israeli reserves. Isarig 01:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Why do you raise a consiracy-theory of a conspiracy-theory that I deliberately rejected in my last message? I can't think that anyone would read the reference to him as a reserve and think that this implied collusion in the IDF. He wasn't on reserve duty at the time, I think we've been clear on that from the beginnning , that's why he's described as "an off-duty reserve". 400,000 into 7 million does not equate to "virtually all Israelis", and the fact that he was wearing his uniform demonstrates the importance he himself saw in his status as a reserve. He also had the gun used to carry out the massacre through his service with the IDF, and clearly very involved as a reserve, being up for promotion to major.Nwe 17:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If he was not on reserve duty at the time, and his description as an "off-duty reserve" applies to hundreds of thousands others, what purpose does this label serve, other than to subtly push the conspiracy? His wearing of the uniform helped him get past the gaurds - you can mention that in the description of the crime. Isarig 17:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

See above for your answer. You can't justify revert an edit on the grounds of hypothetical motivations that are irrelevant, but might possible have in different circumstances have inpired it.

The justification is that it is an irrelevant factoid, which violates WP:NPOV . Your motivations for violating this core WP policy, suspect as they may be, have nothing to do with it. Isarig 18:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That's absolutely the point. You have been trying to justify the reversion of my edits on the basis of motives that you are poisonously alleging. There are also no ground for your bringing WP:NPOV into this. This is merely a question of whether a fact is worthy of inclusion. That Goldstein was a reserve is hugely significant here. I have given several reasons for this:

• Goldstein's status as a reserve was clearly important to him and he saw it as relevant to the massacre he carried out, because he was wearing a reserve uniform.
• He attained the gun which allowed him to carry out the massacre through his service with the IDF
• The fact that he was up for promotion demonstrates that he was very involved as a reserve
• It is vital to our understanding of the man's psychology and the culture that contributed to his state of mind

Normally, in disputes, I refrain from editing until some level of discussion has gone on. However in this case this is impossible, so petty and demonstrable of POV are your edit summaries.Nwe 14:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Your opinion that Goldstein wore his uniform becuase his status as a reserve was important to him is just your opinion.

He attained his gun as a settler living in a dangerous area - settlers get such guns regardless of their status as reserves.

When you serve in the reserves you eventually get promoted, this has nothing to do with the crime.

This is the exact kind of unsourced POV-pushing that needs to be kept out of the article . Isarig 15:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It is sourced, its sourced to the Israeli MFA. Are you absolutely unable to refute the factual accuracy of my inclusion, as it has appeared so far? If that is to then any justification against a greater level of information is extremely precarious. The uniform matter isn't just my opinion, its simple, obvious logic. Goldstein wore his reserve uniform because he clearly identified himself with the reserves. You are also wrong in you assertion that he was issued the weapon as a settler living in someone else's country. They are authorised to carry weapons, but Goldstein's weapon was issued to him as a reserve. Promoted to Major? Even though the recommendation for promotion was lengthy and specifically praised him. As for POV pushing, it appears to me that practically every edit you make on this site is POV pushing, while I am genuinely trying to advance the information people are receiving and ensure some level of neutrality.Nwe 16:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The uniform thing is purely your opinion, as there is no source that says this. A more plausible explantion, which is refernced in the Yatom press conference, is that he wore it so as to easily get past the gaurds. Goldstein's weapon was issued to him as a settler, not as a reserve. Th epromotion has nothing to do with the crime, it is a natural consequence of serving in the resreves 0- an dthe opini0on tnhta his being a resevre is "vital to our understanding of the man's psychology and the culture that contributed to his state of mind" is pure POV pushin gof the worst kind, that must be kept of the encyclopedia. Isarig 16:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

He was authorised to have his weapon as a settler, but it was IDF-issued as a result of his service. His promotion also demonstrates that he was active and involved as a reservist. Even if we dispute his motives in wearing the uniform, it is a major feature of the crime he committed, and a consequence his status as a reserve is a major feature of Goldstein. His wearing of the uniform either shows that his reserve status was important to him or vital to his capacity to commit the massacre. Finally it remains that this is a fundamental fact that isn't disputed, its inclusion as a result axiomatically adds to the completeness of the article and people's understanding of the event the article describes. You can't simply oppose something on the basis that you dubiously think its inclusion makes your side look bad.Nwe 17:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No, he was issues his wepaon because he lives in a settlement, no becuase he's a doctor in the reserves. You simply have that wrong. His planned promotion only shows he did his regualr reserve duty, which is not a point of contention. The uniform issue is cnetral to his ability to carry out the crime, I agree, and is described in that section. I can exclude thi sfact as irrelevant POV-pushing - the pOV-pushing you admit to aboce when you say it relevant becuas eof yoru speculation that his reserve status was important to him - which is the only relevance this factoid might have. Isarig 18:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Goldstein was issued his weapon because of his service in the IDF, if he hadn't served and been serving he wouldn't have been given it. It's you who have simply got that wrong. Israeli settlers are not presently universally issued with weapons by the government without having served in the army, they are currently merely authorised to carry weapons. You now both accept both the accuracy of the information being given and its relevance to the incident as non-contentious. There are no legitimate bases on which you can justify the exclusion of this fact after that. Any prejudices you have on the issues in the article or against the person providing the information are irrelevant to the sinificance of the matter we are discussing.Nwe 19:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The reverts you are carrying out are also messy and incomplete, in which context they have to be re-reverted regarless even of the basis for the original edit.Nwe 19:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Categorisation

This event did not take place in Palestine, but in the West Bank, and so should not be miscategorised. Tewfik^Talk 21:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The West Bank is in Palestine my friend.Nwe (talk) 22:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

So far, there is no palestinian state. The Cave of the Patriarchs is in Hebron, which is in Judea from an israeli perspective and in the Hebron governate from the PA point of view. --Squallgreg (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)