Talk:Iraq War

The premise of the entry is factually incorrect

The most important flaw in this entry is the fact that there is not officially a war in Iraq.

"My fellow citizens, at this hour American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign."

www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/19/sprj.irq.int.bush.transcript/

There has not been a declaration of war against Iraq, so it is factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest to title this entry "Iraq War", and lead off with "The Iraq War, also known as the Second Gulf War or the Occupation of Iraq,[33] is an ongoing military campaign which began on March 20, 2003 with the invasion of Iraq by a multinational force led by and composed largely of United States and United Kingdom troops.[34]"

There is no citation anywhere in the article that supports calling this activity a war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.98.49 (talk) 19:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It matches the UN's defenition of war so all of that doesn't matter. Grey Fox (talk) 20:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

War:"a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air". To argue that it doesn't meet the legal definition of a war is one issue, but I hope you aren't suggesting that coalition forces, insurgents, and dead Iraqis are all over there just picking flowers.--75.2.37.86 (talk) 11:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

No - I am suggesting that there has not been a declaration of war against Iraq, so it is factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest to title this entry "Iraq War". Simple enough.

martinchill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.98.49 (talk) 08:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember there being a declaration in the War on Drugs either, but somehow a lot of people still call it that for some reason. Topic_creation#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name says article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity. The main principle of this is that the names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists (in this case legal ones).

Point being what you are saying would be addressed in Iraq_War#Opposition_to_invasion, Legality_of_the_Iraq_War, or Legitimacy_of_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq if you added the information with reliable sources. If enough relevancy is established, then it could be briefly noted and attributed in the lead.--75.2.37.86 (talk) 15:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not an event or process is considered a "war" has more to do with the characteristics of said process/event and NOT whether or not the US Government defines it at as a war or declares war. The US Government didn't declare war on Russia ~150 years ago but the Crimean War is still considered fact. Bottom line: whether or not something is considered a "war" is NOT decided by the US Government. Nice try though. Fatrb38 (talk) 23:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Main Entry:

   1war Listen to the pronunciation of 1war

Pronunciation:

   \ˈwȯr\ 

Function:

   noun 

Usage:

   often attributive 

Etymology:

   Middle English werre, from Anglo-French werre, guerre, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse

Date:

   12th century

1 a (1): a state of usually open armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): state of war b: the art or science of warfare c (1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war2 a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> c: variance , odds 3

That's the definition of war from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary. I'm pretty sure this conflict fits that definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunnsworth (talk • contribs) 22:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Victory?

Well, anyone who pays attention to the news knows that the U.S. will soon be leaving Iraq. And if the current government still remains and the country stabilizes, would it be fair to declare the war a victory for the U.S.-led Coalition? What are everyone else's opinion on that matter? Dunnsworth (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not really up to wikipedians to judge whether there is a victory or not. Rather wait for someone in the US administration to call it a victory, and then take it from there including all the various critical opinions that such a call would eventually lead to. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, there would be a consensus that the war was over. And this wouldn't necessitate that there was a "victory". There obviously wouldn't be tens of thousands of U.S. forces getting shot at while on patrol of Iraqi roads if the conflict were over though (i.e. peacekeeping is one of many military operations).--69.208.133.204 (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

We should recognize at this juncture that each of the motivations for the war is associated with a distinct victory/loss condition. Regime change has been a complete victory and is well on its way to being a fairly decent success, too. Ridding Iraq of WMDs was a pointless wash. Ridding Iraq of al Qaeda ties has been, sadly, a pretty resounding loss. Preventing Saddam's payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers has been a victory, so far. Gaining control of Iraqi oil is a loss except for the development contracts, which is good, because that was the least noble of all the goals, as you can see by how controversial it still is. Ending human rights abuses in Iraq was a tremendous loss, with millions down on their rights to life and a place to live. As for spreading democracy, it's too soon to tell but I'm very hopeful. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 03:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

What officials said

I'm not disputing what officials said the reasons for the war were; but your edits are playing down the extent to which control of Iraq's petroleum was a factor, GLPP. Why did you blank Wolfowitz's admission?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Since it's part of a retracted news story, it's been in some dispute -- I had to add the source back just a few days ago. Do you think Wolfowitz's statement is stronger than O'Neill's documents? I'd be much less opposed to something that didn't say that petroleum was the "main" or "primary" reason or factor. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone would argue seriously that petroleum wasn't. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

They do per the citations later at the end of the sentence in question, and we must be neutral. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me rephrase that: I can't see how anyone who isn't part of or aligned with the Bush administration would argue seriously that petroleum wasn't. I have no problem with being neutral; but these people have a reputation for being economical with the truth. To take everything they say at face value goes well beyond any reasonable definition of neutrality. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

How can you construe Wolfowitz's statement as the "main factor"? There's just no linguistic way. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The retracted news story used this exact language so I see how it was done, but the story was retracted. This doesn't meet a reliable source, so I don't believe it should be used. There are plenty of others who have said the same thing, so let's use what they have said.--76.214.153.120 (talk) 21:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist, the guide on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. What we think is the truth is irrelevant; what is relevant is what we can back up with reliable sources. Maybe someone should research and write a section on what has happened to the Iraqi oil industry under the occupation - who has profited etc. But probably in a different article. As for the Wolfowitz source, including it is madness - it is a misquotation which was later retracted by the newspaper. -- Noung (talk) 12:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The revised Wolfowitz retraction still firmly supports the statement that the oil reserves were a significant factor in deciding whether or not to invade. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 06:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Over or ongoing?

Despite the litany of near daily bomb and gun attacks by militants, Iraq is still substantially less violent than it was 18 months ago.... U.S. forces are increasingly taking a back seat to Iraqi troops under a new bilateral security deal that took effect at the beginning of this year, as violence edges downwards.... U.S. officials say that with the Iraqi military and police forces now over 600,000 strong, the U.S. military will be able to fall back to a support role under the agreement.[1]

Ongoing conflict or over? If ongoing, at what level do we call it over? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Just look at a variety of sources and try to use their language. It might take them awhile to call the conflict over. This is why the news article says the "U.S. military will be able to fall back to a support role under the agreement". It is in a transition from ongoing to over, at least hopefully.--76.214.153.120 (talk) 04:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's something from one of the Wichita Eagle editors. It's done as a pro/con column with the pro side saying it's over in no uncertain terms, and the con side saying it's impossible to say, but: "There may yet be another war, a different war, in Iraq." That seems pretty clear-cut to me: there's no way to avoid the fact that the con side can't get any closer to calling it over without being a pro opinion. More views:

• Cell phone coverage up (US News and World Report)
• "As house prices rise, Iraqis find they can't go home again" (Christian Science Monitor)
• "Iraqi citizens enjoy normalcy in Rashid" (US Air Force photo set)
• "Iraq has taken charge in 13 of 18 provinces" (World Tribune) - including Anbar Province

Status changed to "Conflict ongoing in 5 of 18 provinces." GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 09:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It is unclear that Iraq symbolically taking over security in a set of provinces means that the conflict is over (and just in those provinces). A war can't be going on one side of a street and then just completely stop on the other side since it happens to be in another province. Has violence stopped in these provinces? Is there a minimal U.S. presence in these provinces? Are U.S. troops still being fired at when going on their operations? We shouldn't forget about our soldiers who are working hard there just because some might like to call the conflict over. Explain to a parent that their son or daughter died in a conflict that is already over and you might be able to find that they disagree with you.--68.248.152.92 (talk) 14:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the Army Times, President-Elect Obama may soon give the Joint Chiefs of Staff the mission of ending the war. He can't give them the mission of beginning to end a conflict which is already over. Trying to forget there is an active conflict over there is a disrespect to those who are dieing and their families.--68.248.152.92 (talk) 14:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

He has. 69.228.215.76 (talk) 23:53, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

So they have been tasked with coming up with a plan to eventually end the war. Please explain how this means the conflict is already over. Did David Petraeus, Robert Gates, and the rest of the Pentagon teleport all the soldiers, equipment, and bases out with a blink of their eyes? I must have missed something.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 03:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

"Even during the tumult of local elections.... There are incidents, but they're rare and even more rarely aimed at Americans. The 3,800-soldier 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, which went to Iraq last fall, sees one significant act of violence per week, down from dozens a day earlier in the war."[2] That, assuming "dozens" means 24, is a 99.6% drop in violence over less than five months. The fat lady is already back in her dressing room. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 22:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

So is one brigade representative of the entire country and is one week representative of the entire future? Perhaps they are recording less violence against them since they are doing less patrols. Why do Gates and Crocker advocate a "responsible" drawndown and warn the country could blow up?--69.208.138.130 (talk) 15:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Since the word you quoted, "responsible", doesn't appear in either of the stories you linked to (?) here is a phrase which actually does: "violence has remained low." The premise of your question is flawed: it's not just one week. The peace may be fragile, but it's peace now, not a war. GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I just hope you don't think U.S. troops are dieing in a country which is at peace with itself. Arguing over whether a ticking time bomb has, will, or may explode seems irrelevant when you are looking at a ticking time bomb. It's still a ticking time bomb which is actively costing billions of dollars, human lives, etc. New soldiers are even still going over.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 19:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

New soldiers head to Korea every month too, but we don't call that an ongoing conflict. U.S. soldiers have been dying in "Guantanamo Bay (Cuba), Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Jordan, Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Philippines, Seychelles, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Yemen"[3] but we don't say there are ongoing U.S. conflicts there. Do you think there is something special about U.S. troops who die in Iraq which doesn't apply to troops killed in action in those other places? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 21:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact that there are several tens of thousands of them actively engaged in combat and dieing might be a part of it. Maybe we should rename the article the Iraq Peace? War is Peace, I suppose..--69.208.138.130 (talk) 23:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(back left) Well, three candidates were killed. That's three too many, but a lot better than 30 or 300. How would things need to look for you to call it over? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 04:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The decision would be made by a reasonable plurality of reliable sources, not individual editors. One would assume this judgement would be made after a significant number of troops have left and after soldiers aren't being shot at, but time and sources will ultimately be the judge.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

How many sources, other than those cited above, do you consider to be a reasonable plurality? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 21:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

A few sources showing progress can be just as weighed out by sources saying violence is right where it was when the war began, by sources discussing the ongoing humanitarian and state-building problems, or by sources discussing the over hundred thousand troops who are still fighting and dieing. One also still sees Iraq War being used in the present, and not the past tense.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 00:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any sources that say violence is where it was when the war began. The only sources reporting on the numbers say that they are low. The Defense Department isn't ordered to keep those things secret any more. The fat lady is in the limo. 69.228.95.244 (talk) 02:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What did your post even mean? And actually you are completely wrong, there are plenty of sources making the claim that violence is where it was when the war began:"(Major General Andy Salmon, commander of coalition forces in southeastern Iraq,) .. said the violence has fallen to levels not seen since the start of the war, which has encouraged investment interest."[4] The war will end when Robert Gates twitches his nose and all the troops instantaneously return home. It doesn't take ~140,000 U.S. troops to be stationed and dieing in a peaceful country. Still more U.S. troops going to sacrifice their lives in a conflict which "is almost seven years old now".. How quickly some would like to forget.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 14:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

[5] removed a source, and removed a challenge notation, and an obvious synonym which has been sourced in this article for much of the past decade. Why? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 20:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

As seen here and on this page and in this section in a reply to you, there was a discussion that this was original analysis unsupported by the source. You forget there is a discussion here as much as you seemingly like to forget there is an active war being fought by U.S. soldiers and financed by U.S. taxpayers. Why? (Please keep overweight females out of the discussion as I don't see how they are relevant.) There are also four sources to verify that there is an ongoing conflict (you should be able to find many more if you open a newspaper or visit your local library (which is also ongoingly funded by U.S. taxpayers and staffed by U.S. librarians as documented here).--69.208.138.130 (talk) 20:58, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"Explain to a parent that their son or daughter died in a conflict that is already over and you might be able to find that they disagree with you. -- 68.248.152.92 (talk) 14:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)"

While I empathize with the loss of loved ones in war, I don't see how it can possibly justify removing important sources from the encyclopedia. Your claims of original analysis are transparently false because of the source you removed. If you think it is reasonable to use this article as a memorial to lost family, then let's talk about that. Would the memory of the fallen be best served by truth or denial? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 16:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The source can be included, but it doesn't say what you say it is saying. A symbolic transfer of security leadership is not equivalent to an end in U.S. military operations. The memory of the dead and the policies of Wikipedia both require information which is directly verifiable from a source, while this interpretation is simply incompatible with the text of the source. It'd be like using a source saying 2+2=4 to conclude that George Bush has four fingers. The first statement may be logically correct and supported by the source, but it in no way implies or supports the secondary statement which is a completely independent assertion.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 23:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The role of lobbying in manufacturing support for the Iraq War

Would it be appropriate to bring up the role of lobbyists (representing the military-industrial complex, or more specifically US corporations that would end up making large profits/revenue off of government contracts in the Iraq War/Conflict) in manufacturing support, especially among US politicians, for the invasion of Iraq? There have been documentaries on the subject (eg Iraq for Sale) and it is obvious that lobbyists play a very influential role in American politics. Corporations realized they would make large sums of money off of the war and donated campaign contributions to key politicians in return for these politicians "drumming up" support for invasion.

If you need specific references then it can be done. Either way let me know. Fatrb38 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 10:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Iraq 2009 Quote

I'm confused as to why this quote is included in the section regarding Iraq in 2009: "Until now I have tasted no happiness. I think 2009 will be like the former years." The man who was quoted isn't an Iraqi official, defense force officer, or polotician. It appears that he is just a man off the street, therefore I am unsure of why his comments are included in this article. Tominator93 (talk) 22:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The quote would appear to be representative of Iraqis who are skeptical of how a transition in a heavily fortified and walled off portion of their city is going to translate in to any change in their lives, and is reliably sourced to the Los Angeles Times. It isn't clear why an Iraqi should have to be surrounded by armed U.S. forces to be allowed to be quoted (see systemic bias).--68.248.152.92 (talk) 04:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I would think that in order to be representitive of the Iraqi people as a whole, you would want a poll of multiple citizens. However, this is a remark made by one individual, and while interesting in and of itself, it is hardly a comprehensive respresentation of popular opinion. Yes, the quote is cited to the LA times, and is therefore confirmed to have actually been spoken by an Iraqi citizen. However, that alone does not raise the statistical significance of said quotation.Tominator93 (talk) 00:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It's representing one viewpoint in regard to the SOFA, while another viewpoint is represented by that of the government. If you can find another Iraqi or two in favor of the agreement, just add them. Quotes shouldn't only tell one side of the story though.--68.248.152.92 (talk) 02:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Withdrawal from Iraq?: Obama

Shouldn't there be something here about the future of American military presence in Iraq? After all, he does want to withdraw within 16 months, and it says that nowhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.76.236 (talk) 11:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be mentioned when there is a specific timeline with specific numbers (What is a "combat troop"? Can a "support troop" still be shot at?). Maybe this will be provided after he meets with top commanders today. (If not, the article mentions the currently planned withdrawal given in the SOFA negotiated by Bush.. Iraq has said it is 'willing' to see troops leave earlier)--68.248.152.92 (talk) 15:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Surely this article's title will become outdated

"Iraq War" seems far too ambiguous to me, as well as "presentist". We should change the title to something like "Iraq War (2003-2009)" or "Iraq War (2003-present)".--Loodog (talk) 05:08, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Iraq War (2003-present), War in Iraq (2003-present), or 2003 Iraq War might fit.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Why? What other Iraq war would you confuse it with, since the first one is called the gulf war? Remember people have common sense. Or perhaps World War 2 should be renamed 1939-1945 French-British-USA-Germany-Italy-Japan-And other countries Conflict?Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 15:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Cost?

Could someone direct me to where the cost of the war is broken down? Maybe something on this could be added to the info box? I'm especially interested in how much money the U.S. has spent in the war. Thanks. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

See Financial cost of the Iraq War. "As of August 2008, around $550 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week[2] to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz." "According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion dollars by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money. The CBO estimated that of the $2.4 trillion long-term price tag for the war, about $1.9 trillion of that would be spent on Iraq".

A more up to date number should be available, but this should provide a general idea.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 04:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

PKK

It was persecuted under Saddam it supported the invasion how can they be in the infobox along Baath party and insurgents? --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 10:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

They were identified as terrorist, targeted by Turkey, and there are only two lines in the box?--69.208.138.130 (talk) 11:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that what the IP-user is trying to say is that the box does not put them alongside Baath and the insurgents, the horizontal lines represent a parallel conflict, Turkey vs PKK. I do agree though that it is not quite obvious from the lay-out that that is how it should interpreted. I would have preferred to have this conflict in a separate box though, because after all the Coalition forces have not been fighting PKK (as far as I know). --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

We had this discussion a month or two earlier. I proposed to take the Turkey-PKK conflict completely out of the box because it has nothing to do with the 2003 US invasion of Iraq, it is instead part of an ongoing conflict between Turkey and PKK with very similar operations even before 2003. My arguments didn't convince other editors and I tried to be happy with the fine grey line in the box. But if you think it as odd as I do, we might start the debate afresh. I'll look up once more the sources I found for the Turkey invasion of Iraqi Kurdistan well before 2003, so this conflict wouldn't qualify as part of the 2003 war. And yes, you're right: Coalition members never fought PKK. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

All I can find is Talk:Iraq War/Archive 18#PKK and it seems judging from the look of the sandbox to have ended with a consensus far different from the current one? How come this was not implemented? --Saddhiyama (talk) 02:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

War on Terror Contradiction?

The Wikipedia page on the War on Terrorism clearly lists Iraq as a battlefield in the War on Terror(see the "Result" section on the info box.) Yet, in the Iraq War info box, it doesn't list the conflict as part of the War on Terror(as opposed to the War in Afghanistan. Also on the War on Terror page, it lists al-Qaeda the U.S. and other nations/groups as combatants. It does this in the Iraq War page as well. So why is it that, even though the Iraq War involves many groups fighting each other that are said to be fighting each other in the War on Terror, the Iraq War info box does not state the conflict as being part of the War on Terror? Dunnsworth (talk) 21:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The "War on Terror" or "War on Terrorism" is subjectively defined and there are differing interpretations of where it is ongoing or not. It presently appears that current U.S. policy is that Iraq is not a part of the war on terrorism:

• Under Obama, `war on terror' catchphrase fading
• Obama redefines war on terror
• Obama wages quiet war on Bush’s terror-speak

I think whether there is an ongoing war on terror or whether it was a political slogan of the previous U.S. administration is another subjective matter. But there do not appear to be any official documents from the current administration labelling it as a battleground in a "war on terror" or "war on terrorism".--69.208.138.130 (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, in that case, should we also remove the wording from the War in Afghanistan page that says that it is part of the War on Terror as well? Dunnsworth (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand why you are seeking consistency and I couldn't make a specific recommendation to you. It might be best to start a discussion on that article's talk page if there isn't already an ongoing one.--69.208.138.130 (talk) 22:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

article needs to be downsized

At 213 kbs is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long--Levineps (talk) 06:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

That may be so. But isnt it customary to discuss before removing such large sections of the article? And isnt it customary to leave a small synopsis of the gist of the new main article? Furthermore the new article lacks a proper intro and categories. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The actual text of the article is only a little over 100kb. Anyways, atleast write a summary as the previous editor suggested if you're going to do this?--75.2.7.232 (talk) 13:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I've tried, but it's very difficult. Almost every section is already in multiple-article WP:SUMMARY style, pared down to very little of substance remaining. And the entire year 2004 has been removed, I just noticed. Where the heck did 2004 go? Anyway, I think a new approach is needed; something like this might be better discussed over on the Village Pump, as this is the longest non-list article, by far, at present. Maybe it should be split up into a series of transcluded sections -- what do people think about that? GetLinkPrimitiveParams (talk) 20:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)