Talk:Culture of Australia

Patriotism

Jesus, I'd never realized Australians were so patriotic. I mean, I'm not expecting or asking for this to be balanced and dispassionate, it's just, it seems a bit crazy from where I'm standing. Either Australia is absolutely perfect, or a nice soft filter has been used in this article.

Misc

Hmmm.... Not a bad essay, but as an encyclopedia entry it sucks. So far as the substantive content goes, it sticks pretty closely to matters of verifiable fact, but it doesn't read like an encyclopedia entry. And yet one could simply recite facts for page after page and come nowhere near providing the reader with a useful or sensible picture of something as elusive, as diverse, and as downright contradictory as "Australian Culture". For a topic like this, bold brushstrokes are required.

Perhaps I'll fiddle round the edges of it here and there, and if I let it sit for a while and come back to it I might be able to get it to settle down into a consistent voice, but I doubt that I'll be able to turn it into a proper]] encyclopedia entry anytime soon, not without stripping it of meaning. That, I think, is the key challenge with this topic: to retain both readability and relevance to anything that matters, and yet attain an appropriate tone. Clearly, it has a long way to go yet. Anyway, I'll post this now and see what others can do with it. At this stage I'm half inclined to wonder if it would not be better simply to go back to having no entry at all.

But then, sooner or later, someone would come along with an asinine recitation of the names of famous golfers and the number of seats in the Sydney Opera house, and that would be a tragedy. Tannin 14:49 Dec 17, 2002 (UTC)

Seems like a good start to me :-) Ask the average Brit about Australian culture and they will say "Neighbours". Which may seem a depressing picture of the international impact of Australian culture. But Australian soaps have recently been blamed for the current trend among under-25s whereby the end of sentences is given an upward inflection. And they'd say "Rolf Harris" second. -- Tarquin

This article is a ton of woffle - a rave with few facts or evidence. (Sydneysider)

I've taken out the link to the cronulla race riots, for some reason linked in the "underdog" section. Not sure why it was there. 125.63.159.209 (talk) 05:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

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This page definitely needs a workover to go from it's plumper essay style to an encyclopedic reference.... No mateship mentioned? and a link to an obscure Jewish social club? I guess I should stop complaining and get on with it MichaelHiggins

This is complete garbage and very insulting. Could you seriously suggest that a society with 200 years of history, a distinctive accent and beliefs is practically cultureless? If we have no culture, why do we relate to eachother more than others, prefer our own television, read our own newspapers, have our own traditions? If we are all just Americans, why do some massive TV shows over there go unnoticed here, while others, such as Seinfeld are hits (probably because of Australia's own humour tradition of making a small thing into something very large.

All the kids wear baseball caps, speak in American accents and haven't heard of blinky bill? Well the baseball cap fashion has come and gone. Blinky Bill is currently a popular kids' cartoon show. As for the accents, does the author mean that kids overall use more american expressions than they used to, or has he never visited Australia?

Luke

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What has the Australian Union of Jewish Students got to do with anything? Dr Adam Carr 12:56, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing, so far as I can tell. But no other page links to it and maybe it felt lonely. ;) Tannin

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Culture - I dislike the word but lets start with some definitions:

a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty. c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture. d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization. (www.dictionary.com)

"Culture is to a collective what personality is to the individual" - Geert Hofstede. perhaps that definition might be useful for reframing this very dreary article - perhaps we could all look at the 'personality' of Australia and add some notes that add more colour?

I think people have used all the above inteerpretations in their comments and it makes an interesting read. However much of what is discussed as culture here is of little interest to most Australians. It is simply each readers perception of what he thinks of cultural importance.

An example: Ask someone from Britain and they are likely to comment on the inferiority of culture compared to the traditional or should I say, historical, British culture. This does not mean that Australia has no culture - just the opposite.

Australia's culture is quite simply something different to every Australian. I dont see the word multicultural anywhere in the entry and that is the best description of our culture. Instead of saying we lack culture people would be far more accurate by saying we lack a predominant culture - due to the sheer diversity of contributing cultures.

Australia would have one of the highest percentages of immigration in the world. Every one of these immigrants has added to the culture here. While the traditional British culture was dominant for many years it is far less so today. Most Australians are willing to adopt parts of any culture that they see and appreciate. Food is a typical example.

I could add an entry describing the vast array of cultural options open to me as an Australian. However it would just be the options that I am aware of in my own little cultural pool. It would be vastly different to another Australians that moves in different cultural circles.

If someone talented wanted to describe our culture they would need to talk about an adaptive multicultural society. The lack of a predominant culture through history has enabled Australians to freely choose from a wide range of other peoples cultures to create a unique blend of cultures that vary from place to place and person to person. Tolerance is high on the list of values for most Australians and this is a major factor in the multicultural society that has been formed. Australians by need are probably the most tolerant society.

I like to look on it this way - Australian culture is probably in the direction of where many other countries 'cultures' are headed. I defy any person to travel through the world and not see that every countrys culture is under threat from Globalisation. Australian culture is way ahead along the multicultural path due to its lack of a highly dominant racial group. Every other country will head this way sooner or later.

Someone go write a paragraph on multiculturalism. Or maybe I will get around to becoming a user

- Just another Australian of European Descent.

Actually, I think all the "culture of" articles are crap, especially this one. (And I shold know - I wrote most of it.) The thing about culture is that it is so varied (as you say above) and so fluid, and above all so subjective, that no-one can ever write about it in a NPOV manner. Or so I believe. Tannin 14:39, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

lol this really needs more citations, sorry but some articles (stories and legends) read just like oppinion. (maybe its the cultural cringe talking lolz) but please try to lean less heavily on stereotypes by using more supportive quotes and supplying informtion thats better cited and therefore more nuetral and verifiable.

no mention of AFL

No AFL, no pies, no beating the crap outta the Brits in cricket? Is this Australia we're talking about? ;)

So whack it in, dopey! - Ta bu shi da yu

"no beating the crap outta the Brits in cricket"

Kicked your arse :p 80.229.161.131 15:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, AFL/Aussie rules definitely needs its own subheading in the sports section. At the moment AFL is mentioned in the rugby section like that's what it plays (this also should be corrected). I might do it at some point but if anyone else wants to, go for it Thewebb (talk) 07:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Midnight Oil

No mention of The Oilz in the music section? They are one of the most influential acts in Aussie rock history, and "Beds are Burning" is arguably one of the greatest Aussie rock anthems of all time. I would write it myself but I don't think I could do them justice. --Jasper99 02:42, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

culture cringe section moved here

moved this section from the article, it needs a major npov-ing and a rewrite for encyclopedic tone, it currently reads like personal observations or an essay (like much of this "schools of thought" section) and should be merged into the more general earlier discussion: clarkk 15:48, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Cultural Cringe

Many foreigners, as well as many Australians, make fun of Australian Culture, and joke that the term itself is an oxymoron. This is not helped by the huge success of TV shows such as Neighbours and The Crocodile Hunter, which are more popular in the US and the UK than they are at home. Many Australians suffer from a cultural inferiority complex, and whenever a celebrity makes it big overseas, like Nicole Kidman or Mel Gibson, the Australian media make a big fuss over how they have achieved international fame and celebrity, as if that somehow validates Australian culture in general. It is almost as if many Australians fantasise that an American or Brit will see a Nicole Kidman movie and think to themselves "Gee that Nicole's a pretty good actress, maybe Australia's not such a cultural wasteland after all."

first cut at rewrite clarkk 16:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Some commentators have noted the presence of a so-called "cultural cringe" in which some Australians have become reflexively ashamed of some of their cultural exports, and question the existence of the notion of an Australian "culture". These commentators point to the success of television programs such as Neighbours and The Crocodile Hunter, which have often become more popular outside Australia than locally, as evidence of this trend. Others point out that although Australia has several high profile exports such as Nicole Kidman and Mel Gibson, that Australian artists have become influential globally in the arts, music and entertainment, albeit in less financially lucrative or mainstream areas. Examples of these cited include The Necks in jazz, electronic music pioneers, Severed Heads amongst others. It is often the case that less mainstream artists have had to market and/or relocate overseas to gain traction, however, this may be due to the nature of the smaller Australian market than lesser intrinsic support for cultural endeavours.

Yes I agree it needs a re-write and think your version is a good start. However I have never heard of either The Necks or Severed Heads so I'm not sure if these are good examples of influential Australian musicians. Also the "cultural cringe" is not just about Australians being "ashamed" of some of our cultural exports although that is definitely part of it. It is more about Australians wanting to be seen as sophisticated and respected by other nations, especially Europeans and Americans. When someone like Steve Irwin becomes successful we "cringe" at this broad Ocker stereotype (even though Irwin is only being himself!). We prefer to have someone like Nicole Kidman or Geoffrey Rush as our cultural ambassadors, because they are sophisticated and classy (the opposite of Irwin). This is particularly evident in the way in which the Australian media reports events like the Olympics and the Oscars, where the only focus seems to be whether the Aussies are winning. Unfortunately being new at this I don't know how to say this in a NPOV and encyclopaedic tone. --Jasper 22:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ireland

Although the effect of the arrival of Europeans on Aboriginal culture was profound and catastrophic, the reverse is not the case: broadly speaking, mainstream Australian culture has been imported from Europe, the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland in particular, and has developed since that time.

Wouldn't most of the Irish influence be in colonial times, rather than since 1949 (when the Republic of Ireland was created)? Would a link to Ireland be better? Andjam 09:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Since fixed, it seems. Andjam 09:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

ABC

While I agree that mention of the ABC has a lot to do with Australian culture, I don't think you are proving your point here.

"Debate about the role of the ABC continues, as many assign it a marginal role, and claim that American-influenced commercial TV and radio stations are far more popular choices. These critics claim that Australian children grow up watching Sesame Street and The Simpsons, eating fries at McDonald's, wearing baseball caps, speaking American slang, and some have never heard of Blinky Bill or the Magic Pudding. Television ratings are cited as backing this view, but it is less clear that these ratings tell the whole view."

I believe that Sesame Street is shown on the ABC. I know that you are trying to make a point about the Americanisation of Australian culture but don't you think that this belongs in it's own paragraph rather that in a paragraph devoted to the ABC?

Sport

I have removed several uncited claims from this section, and reworded it to sound more formal and accurate. For example Australians do not play many winter sports.

• "...where the highest standard rugby league competition in the world is found".
• "The significance with which many Australians treat this sport can be seen in the oft-repeated claim that the most important job in the nation is captain of the Australian cricket team."

Other sentences that could do with references include the one about field hockey and the bit about women's sport. Also a cite for cricket being the premier summer sport (not tennis or golf?). I didn't remove these as there'd be too little left. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Tom Davis

Is this singer from Australia? --Preacher, or Princelet 16:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The section entitled 'Australian culture: schools of thought' should, IMO, be rewritten in NPOV. An example:

"Others seize eagerly on each small point of difference, and brandish relatively small parts of the Australian cultural experience (such as the poetry of Henry Lawson, Australian Rules football, or the pie floater) as if these were sufficient to demonstrate that a new and vital culture has emerged in the two centuries since European settlement.

Somewhere in between these two views may be found the great central thread of debate about Australian culture: the perennial attempt to ask and answer the question, "Does Australia 'have' a culture, and if so what is it?" The obsessive preoccupation with this question has lasted decades, and shows no sign of fading."

In the first paragraph, the author's point may be that Australians should embrace their culture as something being greater than the sum of its parts, instead of focusing on narrower areas. However, this isn't really clear, and it just sounds slightly bitter and cynical. I think someone oughta do something about this. riana 08:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Split "Arts in Australia" off

Culture is not synomymous with Art, I have split off the arts part of the article. What should remain here would be more about Australian culture (or ethos), with a summary of the arts text. Paul foord 09:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Something not quite right.

I was searching for an article which gave a good overall impression of Australian culture, and while this article is comprehensive, I still can't help but find it full of opinion rather than established trend (this is probably always going to be a problem with subjective topics like this). One thing did stand out..

Australian's are extremely critical of their political leaders and high-flyers, while being always sympathetic to those who are being done wrong and in strife. This is especially evident in Today Tonight and A Current Affair

Both these programs will broadcast whatever necessary to get eyeballs and sell advertising. I recall ACA being especially brutal on the Paxtons and Dole Bludgers in general.

Hey, did I just prove this article right about tall poppies?

Christiancatchpole 05:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction to this article is far, far too long. Should sentences be simply removed or..? - Stonemaccas 18 September

Egyptian dicovery?

"Eversince Egyptian heiroglyphics were discovered in an Australian cave,it's rumored that Egypt was the first to discover Australia."

This is just stupid. Please provide a source or it will be deleted. 211.28.131.166 18:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)BenS

SBS

In relation to:

The two national, non-commercial networks (ABC and SBS) have been steadily increasing their share of the market ratings in the past 2 decades, but still only account for 16.9% and 4.6% respectively of the national ratings percentages (figures for 2004)[5].

I am not sure of strict definitions, but is SBS still a non-commercial network, given it now has commercials?

Cheers, Simon.

SBS has had commercials for a long time, but they used to be between programs rather than inserted as breaks in them. Given that SBS is referred to in a preceding paragraph as "publicly funded", which is more accurate, I'll have a shot at rewriting that sentence a bit. Confusing Manifestation 02:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed, although I note that the reference given, from the Australian Film Commission, does refer to SBS as "non-commercial", presumably because its funding is still mostly from the Government, subsidised by the commercials. Confusing Manifestation 02:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

Can someone rewrite the introduction section of the article? It contains too many paragraphs of multiple sentences. Elenseel 07:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation Closed

After trying at this for over a month, I am of the opinion that we have exhausted all possible options. Every conceivable wording has been put forward, and still there is dissent over which version should be used on the various pages. Therefore, I am declaring this mediation at an impasse and have closed it. Parties should continue to discuss it and may seek out other forms of dispute resolution. I would advise all parties involved to remain civil and to follow proper policies in handling the matter further. Thank you. MBisanz ^talk 05:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"World's finest wines"

Under the "Beverages" section the article says "Australia produces some of the world's finest wines", without any citation. This seems to be someone's opinion, rater than factual information, and unless anyone has a source (Perhaps a blind taste test by a reliable group?) I will just delete it. Ark'ay the Mortals' God (talk) 00:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's been a day, I have deleted it. Ark'ay the Mortals' God (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Margot Fonteyn??

... a rich tradition in ballet, enlivened by the legacy of Dame Margot Fonteyn and Sir Robert Helpmann, and continuing with Graeme Murphy.

What's this about? Sure, she visited here many times, as did others from overseas, but to the casual reader it reads as if she was an Australian. What about Edouard Borovansky (who was from o/s but at least settled here), Lucette Aldous, Marilyn Rowe, Kelvin Coe, Garth Welch, etc? -- JackofOz (talk) 06:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Comedy, including stand-up and festivals

Don't our comedy festivals and stand-up circuits represent an important part of our culture? Would there be any way of including them?--Tyranny Sue (talk) 05:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Australian humor & identity

"The arts in Australia — film, music, painting, theatre, dance and crafts — have achieved international recognition."

• This omits a few important arts, including comedy. I propose broadening the scope by changing "film, music, painting, theatre, dance and crafts" to something more along the lines of "live performance (dance, theatre, comedy, music), recorded performance (film, tv, music), and visual arts and crafts (painting, sculpture, textile arts)". Any improvements or adjustments before I change it?

(From personal experience I can say that humour can be one of the most effective cultural ambassadors/translators, and that in my multi-cultural family, Australian humor, especially Roy & HG, but also Dame Edna and tv shows like 'The Late Show', 'The Comedy Company', explained Australian-ness to us better than anything else. So I strongly feel that this article ignores the importance of Aussie humour to its detriment.)--Tyranny Sue (talk) 00:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Laid back

From my perspective as an Australian, one of the defining characteristics I notice of my culture is the informality. It shows in forms of address (I address my university professors by their first name, and have done so with my teachers since upper high school, for example), forms of dress (casual dress in a work environment), the ease of transition from acquaintance to friend and joking disrespect for authority figures. Perhaps it comes under the tall-poppy section, but it seems something quite significant in Australian culture, and something that visitors are often surprised at. It would be great to find a citation for it, though, like the other parts of the stories and stereotypes section. Unfortunately I don't know any. I do know that it's something that is frequently lampooned in fiction by outsiders (such as Bart vs. Australia in the Simpsons). Steewi (talk) 06:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC) (edited for correct episode title of The Simpsons. Steewi (talk) 06:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC)