Talk:Prom

Name

surely this entire article should be renamed "Prom (American) as it quite leaves out the practises outside the United States, for instancer in scotland the men traditionally wear kilts and sex on prom night is really only an american insitution.

"in British English and Australian English, it is called a formal". I have never heard of this term in England, nearest commonly used phrase is Ball, as in Summer Ball, end of year Ball (in education) etc.

My Canadian high school uses "formal". Usage varies, of course. Yelyos 18:36, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

I've lived in Ontario and Prince Edward Island, and my ex-wife has lived in both of those provinces as well as Alberta. Both of us have always known this event to be called a "prom". I'm not denying that Canadians who live in places we haven't know it as a "formal", but the way the article is written is somewhat confusing. The paragraph needs to be restructured, it's not clear what the "also" is referring to (in other words, is it saying most of us call it a "prom", and some areas also call it a "formal", or does the comma suggest that most of us call it a "ball" but some also call it a "formal"?)

Either way, it's a mess, it's not accurate, and the bold text is unecessary. - Ugliness Man 22:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

In Australia the term "formal" is used everywhere that I'm aware of. U-238 11:48, June 13, 2006 (UTC)

Lived in England most of my life and am not familiar with "formal" used like this. I thought a "formal" was used to describe a dinner that on other occasions was less formal (eg usage in officers' mess) but I'm not sure. Also, of course, for many in England, "prom" means a concert (eg The Proms). Bluewave 07:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am English student and my end of year thing was ca;;ed a prom, i actually greatly dislike the word, becasue it is a Ball. The word prom is too suited to american customs, i think that we need to keep things to our own countrys customs, and i would also like to mention that many popel in the Uk wear clothing that is traditional to thier home coutnry like kilts in scotland. I think a more unique option is needed.

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This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article; is this really the right place for "amazing cummerbunds"? The commentary on girls' dresses seemed out of place as well. "Often dress to shock or be noticed"? - - The article still has a rambling, romanticizing tone to it, which might be a good fit for another venue but doesn't really seem appropriate here. - Mote 17:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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Agreement with Mote
I couldn't agree more with Mote's comment. I have to warn you, PMelvilleAustin is amazingly persistent in this and a few other articles (mostly relating to female attire). Everybody, this is an encyclopedia, not a meditation on women's garments. Let's keep it encyclopedic and neutral. Calling something "amazing" is clearly POV; who is amazed? NuclearWinner 22:46, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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I wasn't the person who put in the "amazing" or "dress to shock or be noticed" bit and most of the article isn't mine either. The comment about girls wearing pants being not really "standing out" is mine but i got alot of emails from girls and women telling me my point was right so it's been left in for months and it's really interesting that it has come up now. As for PMelvilleAustin is amazingly persistent in this and a few other articles (mostly relating to female attire) - that isn't true either - i haven't written much on female attire and those articles i have contributed to have been edited countless times since. If you wish to insult me that is fine but this is not the place to do so. PMA 00:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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Don't want to get into an edit war here, but

However, some people have pointed out that wearing pantsuits as a way of "standing out" is not really that much of a gesture at all considering that many girls and women hardly ever wear dresses and skirts in daily life anymore and if anything, wearing a dress or gown to the prom would be standing out from what such people did the rest of the time.

is, while a nice commentary on dressing in pants to shock, completely irrelevant to an encyclopedic description of the prom. This passage does not convey anything meaningful about what goes on at a prom or what constitutes a prom, and only serves to make the preceding statement sound even more ridiculous. Mote 01:26, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I thought that most Canadians refer to this event as "Grad"...but maybe that's just an Alberta thing? Enigma00 01:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

It's used in my school in Surrey, BC. Maybe "Grad" should be added to this page Windscar77 07:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "Grad" should be added. I'm going to attempt to work it in.

☭ Zippanova 17:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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Tradition?

Anyone know where this tradition came from / history of? Maybe we want to have a tidbit on that. ChronoSphere 13:05, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

"Randon article" dropped me into this page. I saw your discussion and added a history section in response to your request. Hope it's useful. 71.195.206.168 23:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I see that this entire section was completely removed because someone accused me of copy and pasting it from a copyrighted article. First it was not completely copy and pasted. Second, if you think it was, why don't you take the time to edit it? 71.195.206.168 11:57, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Uh, in Massachusetts at least, junior prom and senior prom are at the end of junior year and senior year of high school, not at the end of high school and college as the article says. So is that just here, or is that something we should change?

agreed - "In the United States, a prom, short for promenade, is a formal dance held at the end of the years of high school and college, called junior prom and senior prom respectively." makes no sense. junior prom = end of junior year of high school, senior prom = end of senior year of high school. i have never heard of a collegiate prom; perhaps formal dances, but not by that name. this could be regional - i am from the northeast as well - but i haven't ever heard of high school prom being a junior prom and a collegiate prom being called senior prom. if others agree please change the article!

I live in the Western US and we follow the same system. Metalrobot 15:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the "Junior prom" is because of the Junior class's sponsorship of prom. At schools in suburban Chicago Juniors and Seniors in high school attend prom - one prom. I also never have heard of "Senior Prom" referring to collegiate dances in fact I never heard of Prom at college! 99.141.182.202 (talk)BJS —Preceding undated comment added 02:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC).

Sex

I think some mention should be made of the ostensibly common practice of using the prom as a means of ridding oneself of their virginity. Perhaps even some information on the sexual pressures exerted on female participants can be discovered and made relevant. Metalrobot 06:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this issue was precisely why I checked this article. After seeing yet another reference to it, I decided that if anything is going to give an answer to that question, it'd be Wikipedia, which seems to have articles on every sexual topic imaginable. Surprised that there isn't, if anybody knows the answer I'd love to see it.

It sounds to me like an urband legend. My guess would be that most students who are going to have sex in high school will already have done so, but I don't really know. Probably has some basis in fact, but reports are greatly exaggerated. It makes sense that milestones in relationships would be reasons for sex, but I concede that having never even made an attempt to date, my guesses are likely to be off.

I do know that my school allowed couples to book rooms at the hotel together after the prom, which rather shocked me, since I'd heard a couple references to the practice already, and of course am familiar with concept of "getting a room." Ostensibly, the rooms were because the prom was a few towns away. I didn't dare ask those classmates who attended though. . . --71.192.116.13 00:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If your classmates were 18 (aka, it was the senior prom), the school's opinion on their getting rooms makes no difference--they're adults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.203.171 (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Their schools opinion does matter because even at age 18 there are academic consequences to behavior. So even 18 year olds are subject to sanctions by the school. I agree there are no legal restrictions, but there certainly are other restrictions. Anyway, most hotels require credit cards and those "No Tell" hotels that are cash only are not generally in the area where prom attendees live! Sure argue that is elitist and not true, but I am making a general commentary on the location of hotels that don't take credit cards - usually geographically non-desirable as we say, but sure do-able, yes someone could and might travel to one! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.173.6.50 (talk) 14:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

opinion on materialistic nature

Some people think that prom is being taken a little too far. Girls will go to great lengths to have a "perfect prom". There are so many trivial things students spend money on for that one night, such as, expensive dresses and shoes, the limo, corsages, and dinner. Some people are thinking that prom is becoming to materialistic.

Those people should research the topic and post their research on another website. Then we can link to it from here. WP:NOR Juneappal 20:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Its a valid point and WP:NOR doesnt apply to a talk page. 86.40.217.41 (talk) 20:08, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I think comments in the article on corsages, limos (which I added), etc. are part of the cultural experience of Prom in the US and not just a list of things that kids spend money on. Anyway, thls limo/corsages/dress spending has been going on for at least thirty years and not a reflection of contemporary materialism. 99.142.88.82 (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)BJS

Prom queen popularity

Although the Prom Queen is usually the most popular girl, any student from class is eligible to be voted.

I think "the most popular girl" is not a very good expression; the most popular by what measure? I presume this means some sort of implicit popularity among ones peers, but any such measure would be very subjective and debatable, and most of all unverifiable. Should be rephrased, in my opinion. 82.181.61.48 20:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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In Australia, a Prom is commonly referred to as a Formal and a Ball. A Debutante Ball (or Deb Ball) in Australia is not the same as a Highschool Ball or Formal. A Debutante Ball is often organized outside of school, and can involve people from several schools. It is seen as an event where girls are 'Presented', and is taken very seriously. It is typically a large classical dance event, with formal dancing attended for many weeks in preparation. In Australia, University social groups and clubs also hold Balls or Formals. They are usually much less formal, although depending on the club / group in particular it may be a formal event.202.161.87.27 17:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

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Prom Queen from Eisner

Michael Eisner the former CEO of Walt Disney is producing a notable internet series called Prom Queen (internet series). The page Prom queen redirects here. Would anyone object to Redirect at the top of the page? --JayHenry 23:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds totally appropriate Jay. -- Siobhan Hansa 01:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Prom + being gay

High school prom has always been something that put gay students in a situation that is at least somehow awkward. The first gay couple who went to a prom together were Randy Rohl and Grady Quinn, in Sioux Falls, SD, in 1979. Source: Charles Kaiser: The Gay Metropolis: 1940-1996, Boston, New York (Houghton Mifflin) 1997. ISBN 0-395-65781-4, p. 270. --Stilfehler 17:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Caption Necessity

Is the line,
Girls these days tend to wear just a bit more revealing dresses for prom than shown in the picture.,
really needed to be in the photo caption or can we remove it? -Martinman 20:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

erm. No. Well spotted. I deleted it. -- Siobhan Hansa 22:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the follow-up. -Martinman 19:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

British usage

I left school (in England) in 1993, and in those days the only time you ever heard "prom" was in stories relating to the US, or in Grange Hill. These days both the term and the US-style event seem to be steadily creeping in to mainstream UK school usage. (Personally I don't think it works very well at all in most British settings, but that's highly POV!) Loganberry (Talk) 03:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Anybody wanna have an article improvement party?

I added this page to my watchlist around the time I started watching Prom Queen (internet series). I wouldn't describe prom as one of my interests by any stretch. But, the page is on my watchlist, and it's possibly the worst page on my watchlist. It's mostly unsourced, uninteresting and lacking both insight and context. But, I did go to prom. And I just can't imagine that no sociologist or educator has written something about it that we could use to source improvements. Is anybody else feeling really ambitious? This is, judging from the frequent vandalism, a pretty high-visibility article. So, does anyone want to help me hit the libes, do some reading, and see if we can't get this thing up toward GA or (dare I say it?!) FA status? Any takers?? --JayHenry 21:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... evidently not a very popular idea. Nobody?? I dug up sources that could be used to write a real article.

* Prom Night: Youth, Schools and Popular Culture by a San Jose State University sociologist. She really knows this field it looks like [1]

* All About the Girl: Culture, Power, and Identity an anthology including essays about prom.

* American Prom by a Ph.D.

* Ruth La Ferla (2001-05-29). "More and More, the Prom Dress Covers Less and Less". The New York Times.

* Merri Rosenberg (2001-05-13). "IN BUSINESS; Of Proms and Profits". The New York Times. although a little old, this has some good information about how much people spend on prom.

Any interest at all? --JayHenry 00:45, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The Kilt

Can someone add a bit about the kilt be worn at schottish proms

Proms in popular culture

I recently saw a Simpsons episode featuring a Prom flash-back and it got me thinking that an inordinate number of US TV show episodes and movies focussing on the Prom, possibly only matched by High-school reunions. Perhaps they were all written by the nerdy guys who never had a date and are exorcising their demons? I'm more than happy to start off a list that should eventually make its way onto the front page.

Proms in TV shows

The Simpsons - flashback of how Homer and Marge first met.

Proms in movies

Sixteen Candles [or was this just a high-school dance?]

Carrie

[oops, been summoned - I leave it in all your capable hands].[[[User:60.242.50.195|60.242.50.195]]]

A straight list without context doesn't seem that informative, but a summary of critics' analysis of TV's treatment of proms could be encyclopedic. -- SiobhanHansa 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The pictures should be removed

These pictures seem to be added out of vanity, and surely do not meet notability criteria.

These seem to enhance the article and certainly appear to be realistic, typical, and appropriate. Perhaps the dresses are a few years out of date, but the pictures are in the spirit of the article and anyway I didn't really notice anything wrong with them until I read this Talk.

Removed a paragraph

I removed the following idiotic claim from the opening section:

Richwood High in West Virginia, is rumored to be the only school left in the USA that has Promenade where the class plans and decorates the school gym to look like a ballroom or a garden and their family, friends and the community comes to watch.

I trust nobody has any issue with that. --V2Blast (talk) 20:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• The edit seems to have been made by someone using the IP address 207.69.140.33. --V2Blast (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

In Germany

The article reads:

In Germany students celebrate their graduation from [...] Gymnasium with an [...] "Abi Party" or an "Abi Ball" - although most British or American students would fail to observe any of the traditional formality found in their own events. Students are not compelled to wear Tuxedos and the women students are rarely in ball gowns.

Wrong. The Abi Ball is a classic ball with the students (and their parents) wearing tuxedos or gowns. The Abi Party however often takes place at night clubs with informal clothing. -- Gohnarch^░░░░ 14:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Semi-formal

Both of my proms were described as formal (tuxes or suits for guys, gowns/dresses for girls), why does the line say semi-formal? Emperor001 (talk) 02:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)