User talk:Aigest

Hello, Aigest, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Also, as far as BKT is concerned, you'll want to check out WP:CORP for Wikipedia's notability guidelines for companies. If you think BKT meets these guidelines, you can improve the article to make that more clear and remove the prod notice to stop the deletion process.

Again, welcome!  NickelShoe (Talk) 17:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

BKT

No, not the style of editing. The "notability." Did you read WP:CORP? The person who tagged the article wasn't sure this bank was notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Are there published articles or something that talk about the bank? That's basically what you need, to prove that this isn't just some bank on some street corner that we can't (or shouldn't) write a decent article about. NickelShoe (Talk) 12:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my late reply, I hadn't seen your message on my talk page before. I have proposed deletion of BKT on the basis of the notability guideline for organizations and companies (WP:CORP), which I partially transcribe here: "A company, corporation, organization, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, independent of the subject and independent of each other." Rjgodoy 14:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Response

Aigest, I am positive that the translation is correct. Pelagos and thalassa both mean "sea." Yes, there exist multiple terms that do describe pretty much the same thing. This should not surprise anyone since languages do tend to create multiple terms to describe a single entity or concept in accordance to dialectical differentiations. Even though I admit that I am not an expert linguist, this statement on my part is definitely valid from a sociological standpoint. Keep in mind, however, that other etymological analyses of the term "Pelasgian" have led some scholars to believe that the term is derived from pelargos meaning "bird." I would not know exactly the exact reason for this specific etymology, but it nevertheless exists if you conduct proper research. As for the potential relation between the Pelasgians and the sea, this may have something to do with the Sea People or at least with the fact that the autochthonous populations of Greece were aware of seafaring techniques. You state that Pelasgos = Pellg (pool) in a linguistic attempt to prove that there is a connection between the Albanians and the Pelasgians. This would make sense on your part since you think that because there is a possible Greek etymology behind the term "Pelasgian" that there should also be an Albanian etymology. However, I would not put too much faith in linguistics. Even with the possible Greek etymology I gave you for the term "Pelasgian," I would prefer placing all logical assumptions and assertions onto direct archaeological and literary evidence. Deucalionite (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Deucalionite. I would like to make it more clear. I didn't want to say that Pelasgian = Pellg = Pool. It was a mot:) All I wanted to say is that the term Pelasgian and the level of knowledge about them is so vague, that you can not say a thing with certainty. But one of the things that we know for sure by ancient historians is that there were not famous seamen (just like Phoenicians for example). Every time they were mentioned by ancient historians they were described like good farmers, stockbreeders and builders (the foundation wall of Acropolis for example). They didn't had a large fleet, a developed trade with overseas, or a great influence on the sea, that's why they are not mentioned by other populations of that time (Egyptians for example). That's why I think that this translation doesn't stand. But I support your opinion about moving them to another section, since there is not a scientific certainity about them. I may add also that in the article about Albania and Illyrian articles, should be a reference to them as a descendace theory. Best regards :) Aigest (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that the Pelasgians were not the greatest seafarers. However, shipbuilding and seafaring techniques have been used in the Aegean for countless millenia. Moreover, if the Pelasgians were to have constituted members of the Sea People, then that automatically proves that a tribe does not really have to be seasoned in the art of seafaring in order to "come from the sea." In short, just because the Pelasgians were not great seafarers does not automatically mean that they were not aware of the overall concept. Every tribe has its concentration in terms of how it manages its style of subsistence living. However, it would not be prudent to underestimate the ability of any culture to establish seafaring techniques even if they are not as sophisticated as those established by the Minoans or the Phoenicians. Also, keep in mind that you do not need a large fleet to understand seafaring or to utilize basic shipbuilding techniques. As for the Pelasgian language, it is well known that it is linguistically unclassified. However, ancient historical records state that it is a crude form of Greek that I highly doubt would have been intelligible to even Herodotus himself. This would make sense since it was not an uncommon phenomenon to see many tribes in the Greek world deliberately make their dialects into separate languages so that they can further define their respective forms of political, tribal, and territorial independence. This sociological phenomenon may explain why Herodotus had a hard time differentiating between Greek dialects and foreign languages that were entirely different from Greek. Of course, do not expect to establish a perfect linguistic correlation between classical Greek (or even proto-Greek) with Pelasgian. The former was more organized, eloquent and advanced in contrast to the "barbaric" linguistic dynamics of Pelasgian. Moreover, I would not be surprised if no one were to be able to establish such a correlation since the "linguistic distance" between Greek and Pelasgian grew despite the fact that Greek was a branch of Pelasgian (in accordance to Herodotus). However, keep in mind that one should never put too much faith in linguistics. The translation I gave you (Pelasgian = Pelagos = Sea) is not supposed to prove linguistically that the Pelasgians were Greek. To me, the Pelasgians were primitive Greeks (before the term "Greek" became popular) in accordance to literary and archaeological evidence. Therefore, trying to prove a culture's identity only through linguistics sounds a bit narrow-minded in my book. In short, since there is little linguistic evidence pertaining to how the Pelasgians spoke, it would be prudent to base our understanding of them according to literary and archaeological evidence. That way, no one establishes needless claims and outrageous assumptions about them. I hope this analysis is helpful. Deucalionite (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Greetings Deucalionite. My point was about that translation. I don't know if it was original research or a citation. Anyway when you are naming populations their names comes from something. It may be their leader, their territory or their characteristic. None of them relates pelasgian to that translation. You by yourself can see that is very difficult to translate something from Pelasgian. All you mentioned above are only assumptions and not scientifically proved. That's why I insisted on that translation. My point is that they (Pelasgians) formulate the population of Balkans in ancient times. That's why their heritage can be claimed by Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks, without leaving aside the population of the isles. I only opposed the translation. You presented it as a true and I simply rejected based on the above mentioned arguments. I did that because there are a lot of hypothesis about that name even from albanian claims, just an example...(((Pelarg-p(i)ell arg (white race in abanian)) you should remember that the oldest form of that was named as Peelargios from Herodotus (I can not write it in Greek but it was definitly a (r) and not a (s) in that script))). But I didn't discused them because I think that they should have a scientific validity and that I was asking from your translation. Best Regards. Aigest (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Faleminderit

Per cfare kam nevoje,per artikuj me me shume referenca,per me shume Shqipetar qe tju digjohet veshi ketu ne Wikipedia e mos tju reshkas asnjegje, se Greket po na shkruajne historine tani.Edhe njehere te falenderoj se je i pari qe po me ofron ndihme.Rofsh plako!--Taulant23 (talk) 09:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Shumë mirë lale,unë sapo ndryshova fillimin,hidhi një sy!--Taulant23 (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Linku është i mirë,periudha Greke u vu pasi disa prej tyre donin të bënin lidhjen midis Ilirëve. Se kam qef fare por si thua ti? Shtova disa gjëra të reja,ora ketej o 3 e natës, skom më fuqi.Roftë Shqipëria jonëp.s. se harrova ti e ke anglishten më të fortë lale dhe ke më shumë njohuri,bravo, të lumtë!--Taulant23 (talk) 11:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Response II

Like I said before Aigest (and this applies to the translation I gave you), I recommend not putting too much faith in linguistics. Chances are that the Pelasgians were named after Pelasgus who was supposedly their leader. Who knows exactly why the Pelasgians were named Pelasgians. The point of the matter is that the Pelasgians were primitive Greeks according to ancient literary sources (despite the supposed "confusion" that exists between them) and archaeological evidence. Of course, there are other theories about the Pelasgians. However, theories are just theories unless supported by direct physical evidence. Just arguing over linguistics does not always provide the results we expect. Moreover, linguistic terminologies are never established along logical routes of expression since people can invent terms that merely help produce an aesthetic sound rather than a practical term that directly reflects a concept or phenomenon. Please do not insist too much on the translation. Insist on acquiring and presenting direct physical evidence. Once you get that, then you can debate linguistics. Just so you know, the only reason I gave the translation of Pelasgian = Pelagos = Sea was because it was one of many scholarly etymologies available today. This is not original research on my part. I know that if you conduct a little research, you will find this etymology somewhere. Of course, this translation does not necessarily mean it is the only one available. Whether it is right or wrong does not bother me at all. I am happy with the literary and archaeological evidence describing the identity of the Pelasgians. Best regards. Deucalionite (talk) 17:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC).

In that case most studies linguistic and archeological declare that Albanians descend from Illyrians. Of course there are other theories, but they need to be examined and supported by scientific methods. But from what I have seen in this article about Albania, this logic you are saying has not been followed. More efforts have been concentrated on the "other" theories, than trying to understand the other guy. And of course there are a lot of comments and writings on Albanian language by people who doesn't know albanian in the first place (I am a linguist myself:)), I am not accusing somebody, but this behaviour deteriorates the quality of the articles (I have my own resposability for not being here). In any case I want to leave Pelasgians (in the first sources they were mentioned as Πελαργος διοι) out of it, until a further research. They shoud have their space and their theories. Anyway I will try to improve the article on Albania and especially Albanian language because it is in a pitiful situation. Best Regards Aigest (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you some advice Aigest. It would be in your best interest to find some reliable and accurate archaeological sources supporting an Albanian-Illyrian connection. The "Antiquity" section of the Albania article does contain some information pertaining to the archaeological excavations conducted in Albania. However, keep in mind that misinterpretations of archaeological evidence will hurt whatever position you hope to establish. I am not saying this to downplay the possibility of an Albanian-Illyrian connection. However, you do have the right to know the risks that all users face when presenting misinterpreted data as something valid. Therefore, please provide full citations so that you can completely convince other users that you are serious about what you are contributing. Here's a tip. Adding a direct quote from a reliable source and placing it as a citation in an article helps to enhance verifiability.

Overall, I am glad to hear that you are willing enough to improve the Albania article. Yes, it needs a lot of work. Just so you know, it took me a while to convince Taulant23 to accept the removal of the Pelasgians section from the Albania article since it was completely bereft of any strong scientific and/or literary evidence. I advise that you do not create any new sections with questionable sources or content because other users will tear them apart. Remember, you are a new user here and you should always be bold in your edits. That means that you should never be afraid to take risks in terms of presenting new information and/or new evidence. However, you should also be smart and understand that all of your contributions will be put to the test. If your contributions are accepted, then many users will appreciate your insights pertaining to the articles you have helped improve. If your contributions, on the other hand, are rejected, then you must develop a new plan and spend more time finding more reliable and more accurate sources to support your arguments. Even though you are a linguist, you need to first focus your energies on gathering physical evidence. Ancient literary sources are helpful, but should not be misinterpreted (as is often the case in some articles). However, investing your time studying archaeological evidence could pay off. And even if it doesn't, then your goals should be oriented towards providing accurate and reliable information for all readers to appreciate.

I know that we all have axes to grind and biases to express (even neutrality is logically considered a "bias of no bias"). However, this does not mean that academic standards should be seriously neglected. In case you are wondering why I am helping you, it's because you need to know what needs to be done if you want to be taken seriously. I have tried to advise both Taulant23 and Pirro Burri about what they needed to do to prove their respective cases. They did not listen very well and needless forms of disruption ensued. Even though they are your compatriots, they have not done much to benefit the Wikipedia community even though I have tried to help them. Please do not make the same mistakes they have made. It is ultimately your choice and I hope you make the right one since Wikipedia does need Albanian users who honestly know things about Albania that other users don't. Best regards and good luck tackling the Albania article. Deucalionite (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok I will try to be more archeological:), but this doesn't mean I have to put aside linguistics:). Best Regards Aigest (talk) 08:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Albanian as Epiriotes

I ask your support to come to consensus for the following statement supported by references in Albania article

Section :Albanian as Epiriotes

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Same of Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus as part of their identity and the Albanian language as "Epirotic". But this is oppose by the Greeks because in the ancient Epirus existed the Pelasgic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks; however both nations have claimed Pelasgic ancestry..

References :

1.’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

2.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

3.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online.

4.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [29]

5.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [30]

6. Reference : The Albanians (more of an ethnographic than a geographic term) are called Arnauts (Arnaoots, Arnaouts) by the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula; they give themselves the name of Skipetars or "mountaineers". They claim descent from the Epirots and Illyrians, and, like the latter, have always been distinguished by their warlike spirit Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [1]

7. Reference : Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.: Source: Albania.Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [2]

8. Reference : Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Source Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [3]

9. Reference :The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe. Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles. On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas. It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta; and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain. Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [4]Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

notice

notice, just copying your it-5 template to add it to the page category: it-5, thanks. Cristian Cappiello (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Souliotes

Shyqyr zotit, qe doli nje rob ketu, se ja fusin aq kot, pa pasur asnje reference, thjesht duke bere zhurme. I kam mbyt me referenca dhe po bejne kot, thjesht qe te mos e fusin ashtu sic eshte. Rrofsh!Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Mendimi yt

Te lutem merr pjese ketu. Kam propozuar ndyrhsimin e emrit te Kacanikut.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Marko Bocari, futi nje revert faqes, se na cmenden, une jam ne prag te thyerjes se 3rr ndaj sdua ta bej vete.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian language

Thanks for the heads up on Illyrian. The article is looking a lot better now than it was before. The examples are really good. The mandos/mëz one has been noted before. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Latin Element

I think the Albanian lexicon section should be expanded. There should be more about the inherited Indo-European elements in Albanian, the unknown (substratum?) element, Latin loans, Greek loans, Slavic loans, and Germanic loans. There are also some disputes between what is inherited IE vocabulary versus what is a Latin loan with some Albanian words. Here is an interesting section on page 11 (first paragraph) of this source: http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA11&dq=albanian+durres+language+indo-european

It quotes Shaban Demiraj on some geographic terms such as Durrës. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Botsaris

I know but we cannot add primary sources, like Finlay. If we could there would be Byron and Pouqeuville who new Botsaris first hand, both friends of him, who say that he was Albanian.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanian lexicon continued

Wow, Aigest, all of that looks great. I have found a website which has all of Demiraj's Albanian inherited lexicon online: http://www.indoeuropean.nl/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb

Do you think we should create a new wikipedia page for the Albanian lexicon? Should we title it Albanian vocabulary maybe? Azalea pomp (talk) 18:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian languages

Your edits seem fine to me. Your sources are plentiful and easy to verify. I don't see why a problem has arisen.

Btw: I have planned to expand the Illyrian Wars article. I will use Polybius's Histories as my main source. Do you know of any other primary sources I can use? Thanks.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

My main intention was just to ask for the Roman-Illyrian wars and revolts.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. About the Skanderbeg article: I agree with your proposal. Perhaps we should do certain years where major campaigns took place also.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I've never read Kristo Frasheri's works. Most of the history I use is based on modern Western European writers. I have limited access to the primary sources for Skanderbeg. I do, however, have the book that his personal biographer wrote and finished in 1480. His name is - in Albanian - Dhimitër Franko. It was found in 1990 in a Venetian library.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, thanks for the help. When I get the chance, I'll be working on it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Great

Thats cool, I think that I can find the manifesto itself, por prit te shoh ne biblioteken e shtepise, se eshte ne nje liber me duket. See you, Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanian Dialects info

Do you have access of resources or knowledge of Albanian dialects such as the dialects of Kruja and Mat? Azalea pomp (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

MAVI

What do you propose on it? Lets remake it!Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats cool. On Mavi, I have not read the article, so I will do it later. ThnxBalkanian`s word (talk)

Interesante

Te dyja jane shume interesante, problemi eshte qe nuk kam as librin e Cabanesit as te Antonetit, per t`i referuar. Ti e di qe smund ti perdorim pa reference, ky eshte problemi. Nejse, do ia gjejme zgjidhjen :-)Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrians, etc

yep. I replied on the talk page of the article Hxseek (talk) 11:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian languages & Thracian

In the coming months I want to give more of my time to the Paleo-Balkan languages. I want these articles to eventually be as sharp and informative as they can be. Right now I'm going to be away from the internet for about a week. The editors here who seem to be knowledgable on the subject at this website so far are you, me, User:Zenanarh and a few others. I'll be back :) Alex (talk) 21:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

re: albanian language

The part I removed is repeated elsewhere at the top of the page, as are the references. I have contributed in the past, but surely won't in the future, given the page's chaotic nature.

Flibjib8 (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Thracian phonetics

I don't have any comprehensive websites or publications to recommend, I gathered info over the years from various sources, such as [http://soltdm.com/langtdm/phon/phon_0.htm . I live in Los Angeles and I first started studying the Paleo-Balkan languages in 2004 really, and in this city those kind of publications are hard to find, I mostly had to search the internet, but I managed to find a lot about Thracian phonetics that I pieced together kind of; for example if PIE *bh became "ph" in Greek, it became "b" in Thracian; if Greek had Halmyris, in Thracian you would see Sal-; PIE *dh in *dheigh- became "th" in Greek but "d" in Thracian "diza" (and *gh often became "z" in Thracian, as in *dheigh=diza). Alex (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, Proto-Indo-European to Dacian sound changes was mostly compiled by User:MariusA (however he mostly did not sign in and used numerical IP addresses in the edit history). I alerted him about the No Original research policy in early 2006 on the talk page, and he did try to provide references and sources, but there may still be original research or a "synthesis" of primary sources or something, which is also original research (User:Dbachmann a few days ago added the template warning about original synthesis). However, the information does look pretty good, indeed I would say given the state of Thraco-Dacian linguistics, it is about top-notch. But I'm sure there is a lot there that is disputed in the field. On another topic, these days a "Dacian-Thracian" grouping is not argued against by many (there is not a good case for those arguing that they are, for example, as distant as Thracian & illyrian are to each other); but it is also not really disputed that there is a Dacian linguistic area and a "Thracian-proper" linguistic area, with overlap and possibly a transitional "Moesian" area (Moesia). That Olteanu site I linked before actually has some good information on the Dacian and Thracian linguistic areas, and Moesian. Alex (talk) 08:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Illyrians. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Skanderbeg

Haha, I don't mind at all. I'm actually quite happy that I'm no longer the only one trying to maintain the article. :) Thank you.

By the way, I have a question about the siege of Sfetigrad. Did the siege of Sfetigrad occur in 1448 or 1449? Sources differ, and the ones that are specializing in the study of Skanderbeg usually say 1449, at least as far as I know. It should be worth noting that Skanderbeg's personal biographer ([5])says 1449. Other sources, like encyclopedias and general histories of the crusades say 1448. Do you know what other historians say? Thanks.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are great. One can feel that Skanderbeg is now being treated as an actual historical figure instead of a semi-legendary epic hero like Achilles for example as compared to the article in its former state. By the way, have you ever thought about working on a separate article for the Albanian-Turkish wars? I was thinking maybe someone could create this and a group of people could work on it, including not only Skanderbeg, but also Gjergj Arianit, Gjon Kastrioti and also some lesser known objects and events. What do you think?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I made some style changes and fixed some typos on the first two sections. Other than these minor errors, I don't see anything wrong with your contributions. Also, I agree that there should be a separate article for diplomacy. I will try to contribute a lot more to these articles when summer break begins. Until then, good luck with your edits!--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course!

I can help everyone who talks with facts and references,if you want you can use my article,or even modify it,if you think that something is not proper,but you should always use references for your edits.--Jurgen^talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 18:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Illyrians

Duhet shtuar ne zerin legacy me shume per prejardhjen, aty e ka vendin. ne hyrje mjafton nje fjali. Pershendetje, Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no plenty time right now, but I think that the whole page Origins of Albanians should be rewritten, in the context of what the majority of scholars belive (of course with secondary sources). The illyrian hypothesis is the overwhelmingly accepted by scholars and as such should be written in that page, which can be traced on 2 or three sections, on the other hand there are some problems with this theory (first subsection of 3rd or 4th section:-)) and other theories like dacian or thracian origin (second subsection of 3rd or 4th section:-)). Cheers,Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey ;-)

What do you think about including this photo on the Illyrians page...it looks pretty cool. Interestedinfairness (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

• http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Illyrians.jpg

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)).

Have you by any chance read, the Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 by George Gawrych? Thanks for your suggested reading by the way, looks good. Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Chams

Actually, national hero does not mean necessarily hero kombetar, in the way it is used in the Albanian language, but a hero of the nation. Mos harro se edhe Azem Hajdari eshte hero kombetar ne Shqiperi zyrtarisht, edhe pse kjo nuk perdoret nga qytetaret. But, there is no problem with your edit.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hidh nje sy te te gjitha artikujt per Camet, i gjen te template:Cham Albanians. E kam perfshire pjesen juridike edhe te Cham issue edhe te seksioni perkates ne faqen kryesore Cham Albanians#Cham issue. Pres mendimin tend.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:ARBMAC notification

In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user working on articles concerning the Balkans. Before any such sanctions are imposed, editors are to be put on notice of the decision. This notice is issued in view of your edits to Illyrians. It is not to be taken as implying any inappropriate behaviour on your part, merely to warn you of the Arbitration Committee's decision. Thank you. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Aigest, the above note is a standard notification template, but I wanted to add a note that comments such as [6] do nothing to improve the discussion and could be understood as a violation of Wikipedia policy on personal attacks. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You're right, that comment isn't a personal attack. Sorry for the mistake.

However, this doesn't mean that your participation at Talk:Illyrians isn't problematic. You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting the comments of other editors, such that it is becoming disruptive. Editors such as Dbachmann, Athenean, and kwami say that Illyrians should mention the Illyrian-Albanian connection and that theories about this should be detailed at Origins of the Albanians. You are responding as if those editors wanted to eliminate all mention of the Albanians, which is false. In the future, please make sure to read and understand what editors are actually saying, and respond to their actual arguments. Otherwise, I will topic-ban you from Illyrians and related articles under the provisions of WP:ARBMAC. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

• How can we work in here when they even delete our own sentence [7] [8] How can we deal with these users when all the southern cities of Albania are turned in a mess of Greek nationalistic propaganda.

I give Aigest a lot of credit for trying to find a common language with them and bringing reliable sources specially in his latest work the Illyrians.His work is to be admired.In the other hand users like me are avoiding editing this pages and giving up on Wikipedia.Best regards --Taulant23 (talk) 05:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Artikujt

Aigest edhe njehere bravo per punen dhe referencat qe sjell ketu. Ky perdorues qe po na jep kaq shume probleme ka kohe qe une merrem me te,2 vjet po e po.Si maskara qe eshte,ndryshoi edhe akauntin e tij dhe emrin.Tani na hiqet si njeri tjeter.Kot per merak,shko shiko discussion tek qytetet e jugut ose tek Epiri i Veirut aty i ke gomarlliqet e tij.

Mbaj mend ne Iliret si artikull e mbaruam, vume dhe lidhjen me Shqipetaret.Si tek gjuha si tek disa libra etj.Nuk zgjati shume dhe çdo gje u fsheh,autoret e librave mbi Iliret u bene pseudoautor,shtremberruan fjalite,gjerisa arriten sot te vene Nationalistic ideas..Jane dhe dy te tjere te cilat kane biles edhe 2 akaunte (kuptohet nga Anglishtja the IP adresa) qe veprojne ne menyre te njejte.

I kane bere qytet e jugut Greke te tera.Keshtu ndodhi edhe me artikullin mbi Shqiperine, kur luftuan te heqin si pjesen mbi Iliret,Pellasget etj.Me Pellasget une u dorezova pasi isha dhe vetem por edhe pse nuk gjeta ndonje liber ta mbeshteti kete fakt.Per Iliret jam zene shume me keta.Jane nacionalista te medhej. Duhet vepruar me gjakftohesi,dhe zgjuarsi.Duhet gjetur ne nje menyre a tjetren se si ti psh te behesh admin ose pse jo te gjejme nje admin tanin.Nje menyre tjeter eshte te ankohemi diku kur na digjojne dhe te sjellim same shume informacione.Gjithesesi nuk behet karar me keta qelbesira,jane shume te poshter,çdo gje qe ti sjell ta hedhin posht..Une do mundohem te te ndihmoj por puna dhe shkolla me zene pjesen me te madhe te javes.Flasim,--Taulant23 (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)